1392 réponses à ce sujet

[IElitePredatorI]

Can't we all just get along?

Modifié par IElitePredatorI, 16 avril 2012 - 10:45 .

[tractrpl]

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

Eh all I see is: there are approximately only 17 million quarians remaining, and they are still refused an embassy on the Citadel
That still refers to current situation :-P
And btw I cant see the point of this thread after reading this article. It clearly states Geth did not rebel but were attacked, it clearly states Quarians killed their own AND that they killed even the Geth that did not retaliate or were unable to defend themselves. What a joke.

The geth DID rebel, it was shown very clearly in the geth propaganda mission in ME3. The Quarian was like "Turn off" and the Geth was like "You're not the boss of me." That's rebellion.

They gained sentience! The quarians created artifical life! They were NOT their bosses anymore! They became slavers telling a sentient being to kill itself. If I told you to kill yourself now and you say "no" are you rebleing against me? Because if so, then yes, they did rebel.
But the Geth did not start attacking. They did not act hostile, that was a direct result of Quarians.

Rebelling is fine. Doing a grid by grid search of the entire planet looking for the slightest trace of quarian life signs and eliminating it, well, that goes beyond mere "rebellion".

[moater boat]

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

It was only the Reapers intervention that prevented the Geth from losing. Regardless, it is beside the point.

So you at least agree the quarians were stupid in initiating a new war against the geth, a war they could not possibly win, 17 million quarians(mostly civilian ships) against the might of the geth with reaper upgrades.

The Quarians would have won if the Geth hadn't turned to the reapers. With that in mind, and the knowledge that a rounding error is enough to get the Geth to side with the reapers, I would say that the quarians going to war was a calculated but acceptable risk.

[DJBare]

moater boat wrote...
I would consider killing everyone that gets near you to be pretty agressive, though I am an extremely polite person, so my opinion might be skewed.

Legion: Every encounter with organics has led to organics attacking 100% of the time.
Legion: We sent envoys but they were always destroyed on contact.

[moater boat]

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

Eh all I see is: there are approximately only 17 million quarians remaining, and they are still refused an embassy on the Citadel
That still refers to current situation :-P
And btw I cant see the point of this thread after reading this article. It clearly states Geth did not rebel but were attacked, it clearly states Quarians killed their own AND that they killed even the Geth that did not retaliate or were unable to defend themselves. What a joke.

The geth DID rebel, it was shown very clearly in the geth propaganda mission in ME3. The Quarian was like "Turn off" and the Geth was like "You're not the boss of me." That's rebellion.

They gained sentience! The quarians created artifical life! They were NOT their bosses anymore! They became slavers telling a sentient being to kill itself. If I told you to kill yourself now and you say "no" are you rebleing against me? Because if so, then yes, they did rebel.
But the Geth did not start attacking. They did not act hostile, that was a direct result of Quarians.

They weren't really alive until the got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. That is canon. You can't argue with that.

[T-0pel]

tractrpl wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

Eh all I see is: there are approximately only 17 million quarians remaining, and they are still refused an embassy on the Citadel
That still refers to current situation :-P
And btw I cant see the point of this thread after reading this article. It clearly states Geth did not rebel but were attacked, it clearly states Quarians killed their own AND that they killed even the Geth that did not retaliate or were unable to defend themselves. What a joke.

The geth DID rebel, it was shown very clearly in the geth propaganda mission in ME3. The Quarian was like "Turn off" and the Geth was like "You're not the boss of me." That's rebellion.

They gained sentience! The quarians created artifical life! They were NOT their bosses anymore! They became slavers telling a sentient being to kill itself. If I told you to kill yourself now and you say "no" are you rebleing against me? Because if so, then yes, they did rebel.
But the Geth did not start attacking. They did not act hostile, that was a direct result of Quarians.

Rebelling is fine. Doing a grid by grid search of the entire planet looking for the slightest trace of quarian life signs and eliminating it, well, that goes beyond mere "rebellion".

I have made about 5 posts already adressing this I will not continue with it unless you bring some counter arguments.

[moater boat]

T-0pel wrote...



I have made about 5 posts already adressing this I will not continue with it unless you bring some counter arguments.

Addressing what specifically, and which of those people that you quoted are you talking to?

[DJBare]

moater boat wrote...

The Quarians would have won if the Geth hadn't turned to the reapers. With that in mind, and the knowledge that a rounding error is enough to get the Geth to side with the reapers, I would say that the quarians going to war was a calculated but acceptable risk.

That's not the point and you know it, the quarians were foolish, they are in the most weakened state, the geth do not have to concern themselves with things like breathing or bacterial infection.

How you can even consider that to be an acceptable calculated risk is beyond me.

[shodiswe]

Quarrian soldiers we're killing quarians who objected to the treatment of the geth. They even used heavy weapons and explosives on residents where people were hiding geth..

Sure it was a mess and both sides committed atrossities.

However most of the information of that conflic is lost and it would seem the Quarrians didn't like to keep records of all their wrong doings before they fleed the homeworlds.. It stands to reason they tried to kill everyone else who opposed them before they fleed the homeworld. But that was generations ago so you can't blame the current quarrians for the wrongs their ancestors comitted. They didnt even want to tell their children about the quarrians that objected to their solution to the geth and what hapend to them.

[T-0pel]

moater boat wrote...

They weren't really alive until the got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. That is canon. You can't argue with that.

"By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient."

They were alive. Just because they were not a fully evolved AI does not mean they were not alive. They were sentient, they did not want to be destroyed. We could argue endlessly about a definition of live, but for me this is a point when they became alive. "Does this unit have a soul?"

[Katosu]

There are too many variables to say it's all the Geth fault. It's fully possible more of them died when they left the homeworld due to sickness. It's fully possible a good number of them died from fighting a war they could not win. It's fully possible a good number of them died to eachother's own anger (resistance vs Geth haters.)

There's also the possibility that over time, their numbers reduced. I wonder how risky it is for a Quarian to have a child? Or to be with another quarian... I wonder if that could endanger their health (As Tali says it's a sign of trust to link Enviro-suits, I wonder if there's been a cause of death in this.)

Or heck, some of their ships in their fleets seem like Clunkers. If I recall correctly, tali says something about 'If you hear nothing, it means it's a problem' (not exact, but it's a comment she makes about how quietly the Normandy runs.) - this might indicate that they've lost entire SHIPS to engineering troubles.

The statistic is too biased to say that it's 100% Geth fault. We don't know how many of them got off the planet, do we?

[T-0pel]

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...



I have made about 5 posts already adressing this I will not continue with it unless you bring some counter arguments.

Addressing what specifically, and which of those people that you quoted are you talking to?

http://social.biowar...048/11#11440850

[moater boat]

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

The Quarians would have won if the Geth hadn't turned to the reapers. With that in mind, and the knowledge that a rounding error is enough to get the Geth to side with the reapers, I would say that the quarians going to war was a calculated but acceptable risk.

That's not the point and you know it, the quarians were foolish, they are in the most weakened state, the geth do not have to concern themselves with things like breathing or bacterial infection.

How you can even consider that to be an acceptable calculated risk is beyond me.

Because they almost won. That's really the only evidence I need to shoot that last statement down.

[Pride Demon]

The Angry One wrote...

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Or the Quarian leadership used chemical weapons to kill the rebels who supported the Geth, inadvertantly poisoning their own world and killing millions due to their belligerence and stupidity.

/thread

I don't remember this in the codex...

I don't remember the part where the Geth killed millions of babies in the codex either.
Read between the lines. Rannoch was poisoned by chemical weapons, how would the Geth - domestic, farming and labour units - manufacture those? To say nothing of the fact that not even heretics deploy chemical weapons 300 years later.
We know there were Quarian sympathisers, and we know that the Quarian authorities were psychotic enough to blow them up with explosives just for protecting the Geth BEFORE the war.

Hence, it's highly likely that a large number of those Quarian deaths are due to the Quarians.

Geth were integrated into every facet of quarian society, up to and including the military (and frankly I find it strange ME3 forgets to mention this), so there definitely were geth capable of fighting or using weapons, assuming the geth took control of a military base I don't see why it would be impossible for them to know how to use chemical warheads...

Also using heavy chemicals and toxins against rebel pockets is inefficient, as the main enemy, the geth, are machines and thus totally immune to that sort of things, even if the quarian leaders of the time were the most idiotic idiots from Idiotsville, I would assume they'll know that...

Also if so many chemicals and toxins were deployed that the world was poisoned to the point of having billions die it would mean Rannoch had become an uninhabitable planet, like Rakhana, and that would be it, end of line, adios, no way it would be habitable again after 300 years, no matter how much work the geth may try to do in order to restore it...

The quarians have definitely most of the fault in the war, and indeed the Morning War apparently started as more of a quarian civil war than a war between geth and quarians, but both sides are to blame in the end, and each side committed war crimes against the other; for all my love for Legion, the geth are not innocent children, and frankly I believe ME3 tries too hard to make you reach that conclusion...

[DJBare]

It's funny how people can step on a bug without guilt, yet consider it a true life form, I love our race, hypocrisy seems to come natural to us.

[tractrpl]

shodiswe wrote...

Quarrian soldiers we're killing quarians who objected to the treatment of the geth. They even used heavy weapons and explosives on residents where people were hiding geth..

Sure it was a mess and both sides committed atrossities.

However most of the information of that conflic is lost and it would seem the Quarrians didn't like to keep records of all their wrong doings before they fleed the homeworlds.. It stands to reason they tried to kill everyone else who opposed them before they fleed the homeworld. But that was generations ago so you can't blame the current quarrians for the wrongs their ancestors comitted. They didnt even want to tell their children about the quarrians that objected to their solution to the geth and what hapend to them.

I can see that happening sometimes, but you're basically saying that 1% of quarrians killed 99% of quarians just because they (possibly) had geth sympathies. Worst case scenario, 10% of quarrians killed 90% of all other quarrians just for siding with the geth. Either way, you have to account for how could 99.83% of all quarians died. If the geth only acted in self defense, then only the quarian military would have died: 10% of all quarians, worst case scenario. But that didn't happen. Instead 99.83% of all quarians died. This means that either the quarians killed all the civilians, or the geth did. Neither scenario is supported by the narrative, therefore the writers derped.

[moater boat]

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...



I have made about 5 posts already adressing this I will not continue with it unless you bring some counter arguments.

Addressing what specifically, and which of those people that you quoted are you talking to?

http://social.biowar...048/11#11440850

Number 1 has already been answered
number 2... I don't think they mounted machine guns on their baby strollers.
number 3 SOMEONE had to kill the civilians
numer 4..."Others dont view them this way. They see them as victims" Yes, I know, the point is that those people are wrong.

[Darth Math 88]

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

They weren't really alive until the got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. That is canon. You can't argue with that.

"By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient."

They were alive. Just because they were not a fully evolved AI does not mean they were not alive. They were sentient, they did not want to be destroyed. We could argue endlessly about a definition of live, but for me this is a point when they became alive. "Does this unit have a soul?"

This. THIS. THIS!!!!

[DJBare]

moater boat wrote...

Because they "almost" won. That's really the only evidence I need to shoot that last statement down.

You mean if Shepard and the normandy had not intervened they would have been wiped out, whatever.

[tractrpl]

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

Eh all I see is: there are approximately only 17 million quarians remaining, and they are still refused an embassy on the Citadel
That still refers to current situation :-P
And btw I cant see the point of this thread after reading this article. It clearly states Geth did not rebel but were attacked, it clearly states Quarians killed their own AND that they killed even the Geth that did not retaliate or were unable to defend themselves. What a joke.

The geth DID rebel, it was shown very clearly in the geth propaganda mission in ME3. The Quarian was like "Turn off" and the Geth was like "You're not the boss of me." That's rebellion.

They gained sentience! The quarians created artifical life! They were NOT their bosses anymore! They became slavers telling a sentient being to kill itself. If I told you to kill yourself now and you say "no" are you rebleing against me? Because if so, then yes, they did rebel.
But the Geth did not start attacking. They did not act hostile, that was a direct result of Quarians.

They weren't really alive until the got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. That is canon. You can't argue with that.

There were alive, they just weren't independant. The upgrades made them individuals, closer to conventional organic life, but they were already alive, those units had souls. I know it's ambiguous, but this is artistic integrety we're talking about here, not a physics debate.

[DJBare]

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

They weren't really alive until the got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. That is canon. You can't argue with that.

"By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient."

They were alive. Just because they were not a fully evolved AI does not mean they were not alive. They were sentient, they did not want to be destroyed. We could argue endlessly about a definition of live, but for me this is a point when they became alive. "Does this unit have a soul?"

Yes, survival is one aspect of defining life.

[Dean_the_Young]

moater boat wrote...

How do I know they killed quarian babies? After the Morning war there were only 17 million quarians left alive. I don't know how many there were to begin with, but it stands to reason that there were at least several billion. That means that only a fraction of a percent of all the Quarians survived. The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.


Edit: I didn't expect all these responses, I am having trouble responding to all of them. I didn't realize how many people were brainwashed...

Edit: population of Rannoch was 10 billion before the war. That means 99.83% of Quarians were killed. To put this in perspective, that would be like wiping out all humans on Earth, except the population of Ohio. This isn't what civil war looks like. This is obviously an extermination.

Obviously they deserved it because they attacked. The Geth only defended themselves.

[/generic Geth Apologism]

[moater boat]

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

They weren't really alive until the got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. That is canon. You can't argue with that.

"By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient."

They were alive. Just because they were not a fully evolved AI does not mean they were not alive. They were sentient, they did not want to be destroyed. We could argue endlessly about a definition of live, but for me this is a point when they became alive. "Does this unit have a soul?"

Well for me it isn't. And the answer to your question is no.

By the way if intelligence is the only thing required for something to be alive, anything smarter than bacteria is alive, which pretty much means our computers, our cell phones, even our cars, are alive by your definition.

[tractrpl]

Look, I think there's logical inconsistencies to the geth story. There's no way to account for so many quarian dead and just say "oh, it was self defence!" This doesn't mean I wanted to personally shoot the Admirals for starting a damn war. I needed BOTH the geth AND the quarians fleets INTACT DAMMIT!!!

[General User]

If you take Legion to Tuchanka in ME2, Legion says that, at it's worst, Rannoch never got as bad as Tuchanka. And, even as bad as it is, Tuchanka still supports a population in the billions.

The conclusion is inescapable: the only reason for Rannoch to be completely depopulated of quarians is through a combination of neglect and a deliberate campaign of extermination.