1392 réponses à ce sujet

[tractrpl]

IElitePredatorI wrote...

Can't we all just get along?

So funny!

[moater boat]

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Because they "almost" won. That's really the only evidence I need to shoot that last statement down.

You mean if Shepard and the normandy had not intervened they would have been wiped out, whatever.

I fail to understand how you can say that the Quarians were stupid because they would have been wiped out without Shepard, but you continue to ignore that the Geth would have been wiped out without Reaper help. Just another double standard from the anti-quarian crowd I guess.

[Dean_the_Young]

DJBare wrote...

Yes, survival is one aspect of defining life.

It's also one of the aspects of rocks. And metals. And various other things that are hard to destroy.

[Pride Demon]

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...
I would consider killing everyone that gets near you to be pretty agressive, though I am an extremely polite person, so my opinion might be skewed.

Legion: Every encounter with organics has led to organics attacking 100% of the time.
Legion: We sent envoys but they were always destroyed on contact.

Wrong. Legion never says that.
Legion says that the quarians (and only the quarians, he specifically says "creators") attacked them 100% of the time when they thought even the slimmest chance of winning was possible. But he doesn't even say when this happened, it might have been back to the morning war for all we know...

In fact, Legion confirms his species to be isolationist ("we wish to understand, not incite"), and that he is the only platform outside the veil, so its safe to assume no envoys were ever sent.

Fault lies on both sides, mainly on the quarians, but on both sides...
Which is why I always broker peace...

Modifié par Pride Demon, 16 avril 2012 - 11:05 .

[tractrpl]

General User wrote...

If you take Legion to Tuchanka in ME2, Legion says that, at it's worst, Rannoch never got as bad as Tuchanka. And, even as bad as it is, Tuchanka still supports a population in the billions.

The conclusion is inescapable: the only reason for Rannoch to be completely depopulated of quarians is through a combination of neglect and a deliberate campaign of extermination.

Yep. If Tuchanka is habitable for billions of Krogan, who, by the way, require astronomical caloric intakes, then Rannoch would be totally habitable, even for immune weak quarians. Basically, if they can survive in space, they could survive Rannoch.

Modifié par tractrpl, 16 avril 2012 - 11:05 .

[DJBare]

moater boat wrote...
Well for me it isn't. And the answer to your question is no.

By the way if intelligence is the only thing required for something to be alive, anything smarter than bacteria is alive, which pretty much means our computers, our cell phones, even our cars, are alive by your definition.

There is no intelligence in your computer or phones, they are smart programs, an infinitely different thing, my computer does not attempt to attack me when I go to turn it off.

Modifié par DJBare, 16 avril 2012 - 11:05 .

[IanPolaris]

moater boat wrote...

No civilians in a planet wide war? Who grows food? Who makes shoes? Who takes care of babies? The whole "no civilain" argument is silly.

The Quarians clearly consider civilians to be legitamate targets and potential combatants (we see this over and over again and Joker makes diparaging...and TRUE...comments about the wisdom of putting guns on your kid's schoolbus).  We know that the Geth had no other source of information about organics other than the Quarians for a long time. 

It only follows that the Geth would consider all Quarians potential combatents then unless they knew otherwise.  Legion himself told Koris that whenever the "Creators" had the opportunity, they attacked the Geth 100% of the time, and Koris was forced to admit that asking for peace was problematic given that fact.

Basically the Quarians (like the Batarians) don't hesitate to engage in TOTAL war.  The problem with total war is that it's total....and if you lose the results are ugly...as in losing your planets ugly.

The REAL reason the Quarians lost 99%+ of their population wasn't because the Geth lined up Quarians and shot them by the truckload.  It was because the Quarians lost almost ALL of their ecology.  When that happens ANY species is looking at a 99%+ die-off rate.  Who is to blame for that?  The Quarians.  The first reasonable chance the Geth got, they gave the Quarians back their living space.  Who knew?

-Polaris

[Nuchy]

tractrpl wrote...

Nuchy wrote...


Thats not what they said. They had just acquired the technology to beat the geth conventionally. The "flashbang" I think it was reffered to. And they didnt want to go to war with the reapers and lose the chance of taking their homeworld back. 

Sounds pretty risky to commit your entire population to war against an enemy that pretty much did kill you previously.

They thought it would be an easy victory. With the flashbang it actually was, the quarians were unopposed in their battles with the geth, but when they got to the Rannoch system, the Geth became desperate, and turned to the Reapers. 

The Reapers codes allowed the Geth to overcome the flashbang ability. So the Quarians were kind of trapped. No one could have predicted that would happen, no Quarian anyways.

[tractrpl]

moater boat wrote...

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Because they "almost" won. That's really the only evidence I need to shoot that last statement down.

You mean if Shepard and the normandy had not intervened they would have been wiped out, whatever.

I fail to understand how you can say that the Quarians were stupid because they would have been wiped out without Shepard, but you continue to ignore that the Geth would have been wiped out without Reaper help. Just another double standard from the anti-quarian crowd I guess.

Attacking the geth was exceedingly stupid. Both times. But especially the second time.

[T-0pel]

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...



I have made about 5 posts already adressing this I will not continue with it unless you bring some counter arguments.

Addressing what specifically, and which of those people that you quoted are you talking to?

http://social.biowar...048/11#11440850

Number 1 has already been answered
number 2... I don't think they mounted machine guns on their baby strollers.
number 3 SOMEONE had to kill the civilians
numer 4..."Others dont view them this way. They see them as victims" Yes, I know, the point is that those people are wrong.

1) Yeah it has been answered with a sentence that again refers to the present, we dont know how many Quarians originally escaped, there might have been some losses afterwards. But ok, the number probalby was not very different.
2) I did not say that. I said that if you put a gaint gun into your city and cant evacutae it in time and the whole city gets blown away it means nothing survived.
3) Nope. The Geths were integrated in every part of the society, we dont know how it worked but in most cases this would result in a civilization that is incapable of taking care of its own people and is absolutely relaying on machines. If they stopped working for them a huge number of Quarian population might have died just because their pets were no longer doing everything for them.
4) Yeah, my point is people like you are clearly wrong so lets drop this.

[tractrpl]

Nuchy wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Nuchy wrote...


Thats not what they said. They had just acquired the technology to beat the geth conventionally. The "flashbang" I think it was reffered to. And they didnt want to go to war with the reapers and lose the chance of taking their homeworld back. 

Sounds pretty risky to commit your entire population to war against an enemy that pretty much did kill you previously.

They thought it would be an easy victory. With the flashbang it actually was, the quarians were unopposed in their battles with the geth, but when they got to the Rannoch system, the Geth became desperate, and turned to the Reapers. 

The Reapers codes allowed the Geth to overcome the flashbang ability. So the Quarians were kind of trapped. No one could have predicted that would happen, no Quarian anyways.

Even without the Reaper intervention, the geth are adaptable species. At some point they could have just retreated through hyperspace, the quarians would be unable to track them.  The geth could go anywhere, around any star, using any asteroid for resources, and then come back later for payback.

[DJBare]

www.youtube.com/watch

[Joeybsmooth4]

Do you really have to look in place beyond this game to see what could have happen . The Qs get wiped out because they attack , after they are told to stand down. And they do not just attack with there armed forces they attack with everything they have even civilian ships. And get this if they Qs don't attack the Geth don't wipe them out . What more do you need .

[Vormaerin]

tractrpl wrote...

It says they killed some quarians. I can't see 1% of quarians killing the remaining 99% of quarians do you?

What is says is this:

"The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even
those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a
large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the
authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the
opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak
of all-out war."

Apparently, the quarian military authorities managed to turn a large portion into an out numbered minority by arrest and murder.  How man is a "large portion" vs a "outnumbered minority"?  Who can say?  But clearly a lot of Quarians were killed by other quarians over this issue.   And even more quarians likely died in the all out war that followed the militarists' ascendance.  Given what we've seen of Geth and Quarian fighting strategies, it seems likely to have been extremely brutal and all out on both sides.

Its a mistake to think the Quarians act like humans.  They willingly bring their women and children into direct offensive military operations.  That's pretty "unusual" by any human standard.   Maybe that's a one time thing, but it could be a cultural element of their alien psyche, too.

All we know is that there are currently 17 million Quarians and that a lot died, for a variety of reasons, in the Morning War.   Some of that was the war, some was likely environment and economic collapse, and a lot of it was probably deaths amongst the exiles.   Its unlikely they figured out the need for the cradle to grave suit isolation without substantial mortality first.

It is unlikely that that writers specifically worked out the causes of the Quarian losses.   That does not make it innately a "writer derp".  It also does not mean that the Geth had to specifically scour the land for Quarians to kill.   It just means we don't know everything that happened.

[General User]

tractrpl wrote...

General User wrote...

If you take Legion to Tuchanka in ME2, Legion says that, at it's worst, Rannoch never got as bad as Tuchanka. And, even as bad as it is, Tuchanka still supports a population in the billions.

The conclusion is inescapable: the only reason for Rannoch to be completely depopulated of quarians is through a combination of neglect and a deliberate campaign of extermination.

Yep. If Tuchanka is habitable for billions of Krogan, who, by the way, require astronomical caloric intakes, then Rannoch would be totally habitable, even for immune weak quarians. Basically, if they can survive in space, they could survive Rannoch.

I hope you won't think I'm being too nitpicky, but the quarian immune system is only "weak" off Rannoch.  For their native environment and bioshpere the quarian immune system is perfectly evolved and adapted.

[Erield]

moater boat wrote...

DarkShadow wrote...

likta_ wrote...

So, why would the Geth, wo spared civilians that did not attack them and protected said civilians with their synthetic lifes and spared the Flotilla fleeing, kill babys that are no threat whatsoever? They wouldn't.

The population died to unknown causes. The whole thread is pointless.

Exactly. I don't even get why this thread has so many posts. It's just one person trying to force other people to understand that his point of view is the correct one, and everyone else is wrong. And everyone else is doing the same vice versa. All of that based on numbers I'm sure Bioware didn't put any deeper meaning in.

They openly admit that the only reason they didn't wipe out the quarians completely is because they hadn't been able to decide if complete genocide was the right thing. The logically concluded that since it is irreversable, they should not take that action without certainty. As for the whole "sparing and protecting civilians" thing, this is just what Legion told you, and Legion has a tendency to be less than honest and not completely forcoming with the truth.

So, yeah, the bolded part especially.  It doesn't matter if the Geth were justified in the Morning War (they were).  It doesn't matter that the Quarians started it (they did.)  The Geth are hardly innocent and "just" fighting for survival and to be left alone by the end. 

There is zero evidence that the Geth allowed all, or even most, Quarians attempting to flee to actually escape.  How much of a population has to be destroyed before they decide to flee en masse?  I'm pretty sure it happens well before 99%.  Hell, military units that actually have, like, discipline, tend to break after suffering 30% casualties (and that's wounded and/or dead, not dead alone.)  The Geth hardly isolated their activities to the Quarian homeworld, too; there is at least one colony that they decided to eliminate of all Quarians that did not specifically side with them.

Furthermore, the Geth have (with justification) remained violently isolationist.  They are not interested in talking with organics, just killing them.  We can clearly see this in the ME2 recruitment mission for Tali on Haestrom; the Geth were not interested in talking to the Quarian team, or even something as simple as investigating what the hell they were up to.  No, the Geth went straight to "Destroy.  Destroy.  Destroy."  Quarians were not able to make some kind of peaceful accomadation with the Geth prior to Legion meeting Shepard.  After that, things may have changed, since Legion also met Tali; however, 300+ years is more than enough time for non-long-lived organics to become entrenched in a certain mindset.  In this case, that the Geth are only interested in killing anyone who approaches them--this is a fair assessment, since there has been zero evidence pre-Legion to it being fault.  One exception in 300 years is hardly conclusive evidence to the contrary, especially when you're talking about lives that are lost; oh, and the Geth that sided with Reapers going on a rampage killing everything.

tl;dr--Geth are sympathetic, because they were the ones originally wronged, but hardly innocent.  There's a line between defending yourself and [i]destroying the entire population of your enemy.[i/]  It's not a thin, or fine, line either.  To completely overlook that...wow.  Just ****ing wow.

[T-0pel]

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

They weren't really alive until the got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. That is canon. You can't argue with that.

"By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient."

They were alive. Just because they were not a fully evolved AI does not mean they were not alive. They were sentient, they did not want to be destroyed. We could argue endlessly about a definition of live, but for me this is a point when they became alive. "Does this unit have a soul?"

Well for me it isn't. And the answer to your question is no.

By the way if intelligence is the only thing required for something to be alive, anything smarter than bacteria is alive, which pretty much means our computers, our cell phones, even our cars, are alive by your definition.

Read it again please. AI does not refer to a thing only being "inteligent". It means that is sentient. It can think of its own not just obey orders. It knows that it is alive, it knows its surroundings and it does not want to die.
My computer does not prostest when I want to dissasemble it because it is not sentient. No AIs exist in our world yet, they still can only do things we program them to do, that is not being alive.

[moater boat]

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...
Well for me it isn't. And the answer to your question is no.

By the way if intelligence is the only thing required for something to be alive, anything smarter than bacteria is alive, which pretty much means our computers, our cell phones, even our cars, are alive by your definition.

There is no intelligence in your computer or phones, they are smart programs, an infinitely different thing, my computer does not attempt to attack me when I go to turn it off.

This guy (Who is smarter than either of us, I'm sure) Says that right now our computers are as smart as insects. I'm going to go with his word over yours.

[DJBare]

moater boat wrote...

I fail to understand how you can say that the Quarians were stupid because they would have been wiped out without Shepard, but you continue to ignore that the Geth would have been wiped out without Reaper help. Just another double standard from the anti-quarian crowd I guess.

I did not ignore the reaper upgrades, that's the whole point, I'm not saying the geth were wrong or right to accept those upgrades, I'm saying the quarians were stupid to go up against geth with reaper upgrades.

But even without upgrades it was a stupid move considering the reapers were already invading the galaxy.

[AshirahTSparkle]

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Source. I've read the online codex and found no evidence of WMDs being used by either side.

How do you think Rannoch's atmosphere became toxic?

I don't see that in the online codex either.

Christ does nobody do their own research?

www.youtube.com/watch

Toxins left behind by war doens't imply deliberate chemical warfare. Plus, this very clip highlights the reason why the entire premise for killing 99.83% of all quarians pretty much ludicrous. The Geth had no reason to stay on Rannoch. At any time they could have fled Rannoch, and made their homes on space stations. It would have been easier for them, anyway. But no, they decided to eliminate 99.83% of all quarians. It doens't make sense.

The Geth just gained self-awareness. Where do they get ships to fly off? Since they were mostly labourers and agricultural labours, they must definitely have not touch a Quarian spaceship. People are forgetting that the Geth are a lot dumber back then with their limited numbers.

[Pride Demon]

Vormaerin wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

It says they killed some quarians. I can't see 1% of quarians killing the remaining 99% of quarians do you?

What is says is this:

"The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even
those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a
large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the
authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the
opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak
of all-out war."

Apparently, the quarian military authorities managed to turn a large portion into an out numbered minority by arrest and murder.  How man is a "large portion" vs a "outnumbered minority"?  Who can say?  But clearly a lot of Quarians were killed by other quarians over this issue.   And even more quarians likely died in the all out war that followed the militarists' ascendance.  Given what we've seen of Geth and Quarian fighting strategies, it seems likely to have been extremely brutal and all out on both sides.

Its a mistake to think the Quarians act like humans.  They willingly bring their women and children into direct offensive military operations.  That's pretty "unusual" by any human standard.   Maybe that's a one time thing, but it could be a cultural element of their alien psyche, too.

All we know is that there are currently 17 million Quarians and that a lot died, for a variety of reasons, in the Morning War.   Some of that was the war, some was likely environment and economic collapse, and a lot of it was probably deaths amongst the exiles.   Its unlikely they figured out the need for the cradle to grave suit isolation without substantial mortality first.

It is unlikely that that writers specifically worked out the causes of the Quarian losses.   That does not make it innately a "writer derp".  It also does not mean that the Geth had to specifically scour the land for Quarians to kill.   It just means we don't know everything that happened.

Is this a direct quote from the codex? Because nothing in game seems to indicate how big was the resistance...
So if it's from the wiki, take it with a grain of salt, though I may be wrong...

[tractrpl]

DJBare wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

What's your point? This only shows that the Geth were willing to sacrifice much to save their dyson sphere. What I said was still valid, at any point, they could have escaped into hyperspace, rebuilt, and try again. They are essentially immortal. They have the luxury of time.

[moater boat]

Erield wrote...



So, yeah, the bolded part especially.  It doesn't matter if the Geth were justified in the Morning War (they were).  It doesn't matter that the Quarians started it (they did.)  The Geth are hardly innocent and "just" fighting for survival and to be left alone by the end. 

There is zero evidence that the Geth allowed all, or even most, Quarians attempting to flee to actually escape.  How much of a population has to be destroyed before they decide to flee en masse?  I'm pretty sure it happens well before 99%.  Hell, military units that actually have, like, discipline, tend to break after suffering 30% casualties (and that's wounded and/or dead, not dead alone.)  The Geth hardly isolated their activities to the Quarian homeworld, too; there is at least one colony that they decided to eliminate of all Quarians that did not specifically side with them.

Furthermore, the Geth have (with justification) remained violently isolationist.  They are not interested in talking with organics, just killing them.  We can clearly see this in the ME2 recruitment mission for Tali on Haestrom; the Geth were not interested in talking to the Quarian team, or even something as simple as investigating what the hell they were up to.  No, the Geth went straight to "Destroy.  Destroy.  Destroy."  Quarians were not able to make some kind of peaceful accomadation with the Geth prior to Legion meeting Shepard.  After that, things may have changed, since Legion also met Tali; however, 300+ years is more than enough time for non-long-lived organics to become entrenched in a certain mindset.  In this case, that the Geth are only interested in killing anyone who approaches them--this is a fair assessment, since there has been zero evidence pre-Legion to it being fault.  One exception in 300 years is hardly conclusive evidence to the contrary, especially when you're talking about lives that are lost; oh, and the Geth that sided with Reapers going on a rampage killing everything.

tl;dr--Geth are sympathetic, because they were the ones originally wronged, but hardly innocent.  There's a line between defending yourself and [i]destroying the entire population of your enemy.[i/]  It's not a thin, or fine, line either.  To completely overlook that...wow.  Just ****ing wow.

Thank goodness there are more sane people on these forums.

[IanPolaris]

The Geth on Haestrom were Heretics. If Legion is with you on Tali's recruitment mission, this becomes clear.

-Polaris

[moater boat]

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

I fail to understand how you can say that the Quarians were stupid because they would have been wiped out without Shepard, but you continue to ignore that the Geth would have been wiped out without Reaper help. Just another double standard from the anti-quarian crowd I guess.

I did not ignore the reaper upgrades, that's the whole point, I'm not saying the geth were wrong or right to accept those upgrades, I'm saying the quarians were stupid to go up against geth with reaper upgrades.

But even without upgrades it was a stupid move considering the reapers were already invading the galaxy.

The Geth got the Reaper upgrades AFTER the quarians attacked.