1392 réponses à ce sujet

[tractrpl]

Vormaerin wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

It says they killed some quarians. I can't see 1% of quarians killing the remaining 99% of quarians do you?

What is says is this:

"The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even
those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a
large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the
authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the
opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak
of all-out war."

Apparently, the quarian military authorities managed to turn a large portion into an out numbered minority by arrest and murder.  How man is a "large portion" vs a "outnumbered minority"?  Who can say?  But clearly a lot of Quarians were killed by other quarians over this issue.   And even more quarians likely died in the all out war that followed the militarists' ascendance.  Given what we've seen of Geth and Quarian fighting strategies, it seems likely to have been extremely brutal and all out on both sides.

Its a mistake to think the Quarians act like humans.  They willingly bring their women and children into direct offensive military operations.  That's pretty "unusual" by any human standard.   Maybe that's a one time thing, but it could be a cultural element of their alien psyche, too.

All we know is that there are currently 17 million Quarians and that a lot died, for a variety of reasons, in the Morning War.   Some of that was the war, some was likely environment and economic collapse, and a lot of it was probably deaths amongst the exiles.   Its unlikely they figured out the need for the cradle to grave suit isolation without substantial mortality first.

It is unlikely that that writers specifically worked out the causes of the Quarian losses.   That does not make it innately a "writer derp".  It also does not mean that the Geth had to specifically scour the land for Quarians to kill.   It just means we don't know everything that happened.

Conversations with Tali and others prove that they act just like humans, and are not violent by nature, just like the geth. It is implied that the fleet consists of most of the survivors. It is implied that none were left on Rannoch. This means that over 99% of all quarians died, between Rannoch, Haestrom, and whatever other populated worlds the Quarians had settled. It is implied that the geth did not resut to nuclear war, so maybe the Quarians did, but if they did, why bomb their own civilians? It would mean that a small percentage overwhelmed a larger percentage. All it means is that the entire war makes no sense. 

CONCLUSION: THE WRITERS DERPED!!!!!

[Vormaerin]

Pride Demon wrote...


Is this a direct quote from the codex? Because nothing in game seems to indicate how big was the resistance...
So if it's from the wiki, take it with a grain of salt, though I may be wrong...

Its from the wiki.  I am only using it because the quoted poster claimed it for support, which it does not actually provide.

The fact is that we don't know very much.

[Darth Math 88]

moater boat wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

T-0pel wrote...

1) You dont know what happened, we dont know what happened. There 17 milions Quarins that are now alive, we have no idea how many survived after they left Rannoch. 

The answer is 17 million. It states such in the codex. There's 17 million alive now, and 17 million escaped. 

please send me link I cant find it...

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Geth_War

Eh all I see is: there are approximately only 17 million quarians remaining, and they are still refused an embassy on the Citadel
That still refers to current situation :-P
And btw I cant see the point of this thread after reading this article. It clearly states Geth did not rebel but were attacked, it clearly states Quarians killed their own AND that they killed even the Geth that did not retaliate or were unable to defend themselves. What a joke.

The geth DID rebel, it was shown very clearly in the geth propaganda mission in ME3. The Quarian was like "Turn off" and the Geth was like "You're not the boss of me." That's rebellion.

Calling it a geth "propaganda" mission is silly and it's based simply on your own personal biases.

And the geth never said anything resembling the statement "You're not the boss of me." That's just another example of your closed-mindedness of the subject distorting things so they will match up with your own perceptions, completely numb to any other possibilities or perspectives. Sort of like the folks at the Westboro Baptist Church....

[curufinwe03]

I thought about that too in the last days. Severel billion quarians died during the morning war, before the depature of the flotilla. Granted, the quarians acted like idiots back then and many did during ME3 - the mission on Rannoch showed that in a pretty obvious way. But on the other hand the killing of billions of quarians is surely more than self-defense and i hardly believe that they were all combatans. I also disbelieve that they were all killed by the quarians themself. I haven't read anything about total nuclear annihilation of the quarian peoples - it is possible that i missed something in the game. If that's true, i'd like to know. Until then i assume that the geth killed the quarians on the planet. But to be fair, we must not forget, that the geth's intelligence depends on the number of interconnected programs and I'd guess that they weren't so smart during the morning war as they are during the Mass Effect games. Maybe they just saw the quarians as a danger to their existence and decided to end this threat. Probably the geth's minds weren't as sophisticated as today and didn't know moral but just self-preservation.
Again, the quarians clearly started the whole affair. They created life and tried to murder it and geth defended themself. And they didn't dog the flotilla. And the quarians killed many of their own- but surely not several billion civilians.
It neither fair nor intelligent to think that wars are only caused by one side or that one side is totally good and the other is evil. It's ok in fantasy stories like LOTR - every child tell you immedialty who are the bad the guys and that's fine. The people are actually wearing black and white clothes. But real life - and Mass Effect in that case - are a lot more complex. Some clothes are grey.

[Aetika]

moater boat wrote...

Aetika wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Aetika wrote...


No, they are only foolish enough to start war over their homeworld, when there is Reaper invasion 

As far as they knew, the Geth were still working with the Reapers. From their point of view, they were doing more than any other race to combat the reaper threat.

Please. Han Gerrel himself says that they "initiated the war to retake their homeworld". There is no mention about Reapers or the war being their part of fight against Reapers. Actually the whole conversations shows very clearly, that it is not about Reapers at all.: 

That doesn't change the fact that as far as anyone knew, the Geth were working with the Reapers. Just because they had other good reasons doesn't change the fact that they were actually doing something to prepare for the reaper war.

By doing something to prepare for the war you mean fling themselves against geth, provoking them to fight and directly causing their alliance with Reapers(thus potentionally strengthen Reapers)? Of course, they couldn´t anticipate that, but their motives were to help anyone but themselves. Anyway, Tali became the Admiral prior the war. She knew about heretics, she knew about Legion, she was there when Shepard dealt with Heretics(either via destruction or rewriting). That she would not present those facts to Admiralty Board, especially if she opposed the war, is quite crazy assumption. They had to know that Geth are not working with Reapers.

Sorry for late response btw, I was off for a while and this post is moving so fast...

[tractrpl]

Vormaerin wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...


Is this a direct quote from the codex? Because nothing in game seems to indicate how big was the resistance...
So if it's from the wiki, take it with a grain of salt, though I may be wrong...

Its from the wiki.  I am only using it because the quoted poster claimed it for support, which it does not actually provide.

The fact is that we don't know very much.

We know there were 10 billion before, 17 million after. We're told that the Quarians are not any more warlike than humans, ditto for geth. There's no other explanation for all of this. The writers derped. They didn't mean for us to think this deeply about it cause they didn't think about it themselves. They wrote this down while drinking their morning coffee.

[Erield]

Vormaerin wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

It says they killed some quarians. I can't see 1% of quarians killing the remaining 99% of quarians do you?

What is says is this:

"The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even
those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a
large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the
authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the
opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak
of all-out war."

Apparently, the quarian military authorities managed to turn a large portion into an out numbered minority by arrest and murder.  How man is a "large portion" vs a "outnumbered minority"?  Who can say?  But clearly a lot of Quarians were killed by other quarians over this issue.   And even more quarians likely died in the all out war that followed the militarists' ascendance.  Given what we've seen of Geth and Quarian fighting strategies, it seems likely to have been extremely brutal and all out on both sides.

At the bolded part:  You are completely correct.  People have never, ever, ever changed their mind after a war started.  People have never gone from, "Man.  Those Mexicans (as an example) sure have it bad.  We should help them out, even though my country hates them all and we're at war or something."  to "Holy ****!  Those Mexicans are killing us!  What the ****!  I liked them!  But if it has to be us or them, well, **** 'em."

Opinions change. What, and who, you are willing to die for changes as well.  Geth would have had just as much compunction killing non-combatants who served critical roles as you can expect any machine to have; none.  By this, I specifically mean doctors, teachers, police, factory-workers, government officials, etc.  The people that see to the day-to-day operations of the infrastructure, the education, peace-keeping, etc. systems are all weak points to be eliminated to weaken the enemy.

[DJBare]

I'm out, too much technophobia in this thread.

Huh, I remember as a kid the daleks scared the crap out of me but the cybermen did not, yet the cybermen are the most brutal, as I got older I came to realise it's because they had two arms, two legs, a head and a torso, my real problem with daleks was prejudice.

[Joeybsmooth4]

tractrpl wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

It says they killed some quarians. I can't see 1% of quarians killing the remaining 99% of quarians do you?

What is says is this:

"The quarians placed their worlds under martial law, hunting down even
those geth not participating in the hostilities, which was opposed by a
large portion of the quarian people. They sheltered geth from the
authorities, and were detained or killed as a result. Eventually, the
opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak
of all-out war."

Apparently, the quarian military authorities managed to turn a large portion into an out numbered minority by arrest and murder.  How man is a "large portion" vs a "outnumbered minority"?  Who can say?  But clearly a lot of Quarians were killed by other quarians over this issue.   And even more quarians likely died in the all out war that followed the militarists' ascendance.  Given what we've seen of Geth and Quarian fighting strategies, it seems likely to have been extremely brutal and all out on both sides.

Its a mistake to think the Quarians act like humans.  They willingly bring their women and children into direct offensive military operations.  That's pretty "unusual" by any human standard.   Maybe that's a one time thing, but it could be a cultural element of their alien psyche, too.

All we know is that there are currently 17 million Quarians and that a lot died, for a variety of reasons, in the Morning War.   Some of that was the war, some was likely environment and economic collapse, and a lot of it was probably deaths amongst the exiles.   Its unlikely they figured out the need for the cradle to grave suit isolation without substantial mortality first.

It is unlikely that that writers specifically worked out the causes of the Quarian losses.   That does not make it innately a "writer derp".  It also does not mean that the Geth had to specifically scour the land for Quarians to kill.   It just means we don't know everything that happened.

Conversations with Tali and others prove that they act just like humans, and are not violent by nature, just like the geth. It is implied that the fleet consists of most of the survivors. It is implied that none were left on Rannoch. This means that over 99% of all quarians died, between Rannoch, Haestrom, and whatever other populated worlds the Quarians had settled. It is implied that the geth did not resut to nuclear war, so maybe the Quarians did, but if they did, why bomb their own civilians? It would mean that a small percentage overwhelmed a larger percentage. All it means is that the entire war makes no sense. 

CONCLUSION: THE WRITERS DERPED!!!!!

Yes they are violent by nature. They did War crimes , used the information from those war crime to attack the geth while they were getting ready to help the rest the world fight the Reapers. They attack ships with there leaders , and major ally on it. They backstab Shep every time after time . And they even kill there own people . They are as bad as the they are almost as bad as the Krogan.

[T-0pel]

curufinwe03 wrote...

I thought about that too in the last days. Severel billion quarians died during the morning war, before the depature of the flotilla. Granted, the quarians acted like idiots back then and many did during ME3 - the mission on Rannoch showed that in a pretty obvious way. But on the other hand the killing of billions of quarians is surely more than self-defense and i hardly believe that they were all combatans. I also disbelieve that they were all killed by the quarians themself. I haven't read anything about total nuclear annihilation of the quarian peoples - it is possible that i missed something in the game. If that's true, i'd like to know. Until then i assume that the geth killed the quarians on the planet. But to be fair, we must not forget, that the geth's intelligence depends on the number of interconnected programs and I'd guess that they weren't so smart during the morning war as they are during the Mass Effect games. Maybe they just saw the quarians as a danger to their existence and decided to end this threat. Probably the geth's minds weren't as sophisticated as today and didn't know moral but just self-preservation.
Again, the quarians clearly started the whole affair. They created life and tried to murder it and geth defended themself. And they didn't dog the flotilla. And the quarians killed many of their own- but surely not several billion civilians.
It neither fair nor intelligent to think that wars are only caused by one side or that one side is totally good and the other is evil. It's ok in fantasy stories like LOTR - every child tell you immedialty who are the bad the guys and that's fine. The people are actually wearing black and white clothes. But real life - and Mass Effect in that case - are a lot more complex. Some clothes are grey.

Yeah but that is exactly the point of this thread. OP looks at it from a very black/white perspective. For him they were machines that rebeled and refused to obey orders, he refuses to acknoledge they were alive and says that they are: "Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.
"
He does not say both sides were wrong he clearly states the Quarians are the poor victims.

[Ad_Hoc]

From what i understand, flotilla just left everyone who was left on the planet to die.

I doubt that the war on Rannoch stopped right after the flotilla left, geth could have nuked or poisoned the rest of the population, considering them to much of a threat to keep them alive.

Imo, that was war for extermination and only one species could survive. Are geth good, no. Are they evil, maybe they were, but so were Quarians.

Never thought of geth as of misunderstood hippies though.

[alpha54]

The Geth never had a right to rebel (Asimov's 3rd law, anyone?). The fact that they slaughtered billions of Quarians in the process just makes them more abhorrent. Cereally don't see how anyone cares about their fate.

[Pride Demon]

moater boat wrote...

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

I fail to understand how you can say that the Quarians were stupid because they would have been wiped out without Shepard, but you continue to ignore that the Geth would have been wiped out without Reaper help. Just another double standard from the anti-quarian crowd I guess.

I did not ignore the reaper upgrades, that's the whole point, I'm not saying the geth were wrong or right to accept those upgrades, I'm saying the quarians were stupid to go up against geth with reaper upgrades.

But even without upgrades it was a stupid move considering the reapers were already invading the galaxy.

The Geth got the Reaper upgrades AFTER the quarians attacked.

Correct. And thinking about it some more... Where did the Rannoch reaper came from?
Was it already on Rannoch? Then why didn't the geth fight against it at first?
And if it wasn't on rannoch how come the Migrant Fleet didn't "see" it landing? And how did the geth contact it in the first place? And how did it get there so fast?

[T-0pel]

DJBare wrote...

I'm out, too much technophobia in this thread.

Huh, I remember as a kid the daleks scared the crap out of me but the cybermen did not, yet the cybermen are the most brutal, as I got older I came to realise it's because they had two arms, two legs, a head and a torso, my real problem with daleks was prejudice.

Yeah me too. Bye

[tractrpl]

curufinwe03 wrote...

I thought about that too in the last days. Severel billion quarians died during the morning war, before the depature of the flotilla. Granted, the quarians acted like idiots back then and many did during ME3 - the mission on Rannoch showed that in a pretty obvious way. But on the other hand the killing of billions of quarians is surely more than self-defense and i hardly believe that they were all combatans. I also disbelieve that they were all killed by the quarians themself. I haven't read anything about total nuclear annihilation of the quarian peoples - it is possible that i missed something in the game. If that's true, i'd like to know. Until then i assume that the geth killed the quarians on the planet. But to be fair, we must not forget, that the geth's intelligence depends on the number of interconnected programs and I'd guess that they weren't so smart during the morning war as they are during the Mass Effect games. Maybe they just saw the quarians as a danger to their existence and decided to end this threat. Probably the geth's minds weren't as sophisticated as today and didn't know moral but just self-preservation.
Again, the quarians clearly started the whole affair. They created life and tried to murder it and geth defended themself. And they didn't dog the flotilla. And the quarians killed many of their own- but surely not several billion civilians.
It neither fair nor intelligent to think that wars are only caused by one side or that one side is totally good and the other is evil. It's ok in fantasy stories like LOTR - every child tell you immedialty who are the bad the guys and that's fine. The people are actually wearing black and white clothes. But real life - and Mass Effect in that case - are a lot more complex. Some clothes are grey.

EXACTLY!!! EVERYONE READ THIS!!! The quarians killed many of their own BUT SURELY NOT SEVERAL BILLION (or 90% of their population). It's highly illogical to believe THAT ALL QUARIANS WERE COMBATANTS.  The flotilla attack in ME3 DOESN'T COUNT BECAUSE THEY HAD NO PLACE TO PUT CIVILIANS.  So if the Quarians didn't kill them, than who did? Had to be the Geth. When the Geth defeated a city militarily, what did the Geth do to the civilans? Obviously, they killed them all. Even if they couldn't defent themselves, and even if they didn't want to fight, THEY KILLED THEM ALL. This doesn't fit the narrative that the geth wer "just defending themselves" nor does it fit the quarians narrative. Result: PLOT HOLE.

[Elite Midget]

Bill Casey wrote...

We left the babies alone. However, without parents to take care of them, they ceased to function...
We could not calculate the ramifications of this action...

Sounds like what exactly happened.

[Vormaerin]

tractrpl wrote...


CONCLUSION: THE WRITERS DERPED!!!!!

No: CONCLUSION:  YOU ASSUME A LOT.


You assume that because you don't have the necessary information, the writers were incompetent.  That's BS.

There are lots of scenarios that could account for the population loss.   There is no evidence I am aware of that the level the population stabilized at (17mil) is the population that actually escaped.    There is no evidence about how many Quarians died fighting on the Geth side, starved to death, caught diseases, or suffered from whatever toxins the Geth had to clean up.

[tractrpl]

T-0pel wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I'm out, too much technophobia in this thread.

Huh, I remember as a kid the daleks scared the crap out of me but the cybermen did not, yet the cybermen are the most brutal, as I got older I came to realise it's because they had two arms, two legs, a head and a torso, my real problem with daleks was prejudice.

Yeah me too. Bye

Calling the entire thing a plot hole is not technophobia.

[DJBare]

alpha54 wrote...

The Geth never had a right to rebel (Asimov's 3rd law, anyone?). The fact that they slaughtered billions of Quarians in the process just makes them more abhorrent. Cereally don't see how anyone cares about their fate.

Oh geeze, I had to return for this, Asimov's third law pertains to robots, and the laws have to be programmed by the creators, seems the quarians screwed up again.

[curufinwe03]

T-0pel wrote...


Yeah but that is exactly the point of this thread. OP looks at it from a very black/white perspective. For him they were machines that rebeled and refused to obey orders, he refuses to acknoledge they were alive and says that they are: "Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.
"
He does not say both sides were wrong he clearly states the Quarians are the poor victims.

Correct, that is an extremist way to look at it, but the majority seems to think that geth were the victims and that the whole quarian species, except maybe for Tali, are just dicks. As usual, the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle between these two extrem opinions.

[Poison_Berrie]

Both side probably did not shy away from using WMDs. Their toxicity is more dangerous to Quarians, but the concentrated destruction of a nuclear/fission/anti-matter bomb would still be very effective against large Geth numbers.

It's unlikely and definitely not implied that the Geth went door to door killing every Quarian family they found.

[IanPolaris]

moater boat wrote...

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

I fail to understand how you can say that the Quarians were stupid because they would have been wiped out without Shepard, but you continue to ignore that the Geth would have been wiped out without Reaper help. Just another double standard from the anti-quarian crowd I guess.

I did not ignore the reaper upgrades, that's the whole point, I'm not saying the geth were wrong or right to accept those upgrades, I'm saying the quarians were stupid to go up against geth with reaper upgrades.

But even without upgrades it was a stupid move considering the reapers were already invading the galaxy.

The Geth got the Reaper upgrades AFTER the quarians attacked.

If the plan to take back your planet involves strapping big guns on your kid's schoolbus, maybe it's a bad plan.

-Joker

Joker is dead right.  The Quarians went all in and left themselves no option to retreat if things went bad and this is HORRIBLE military strategy and given what the Quarians knew when attacking Rannoch in ME3 (prior to the Reaper signal) it probably wasn't even necessary.  The reason the Quarians are in danger is because the Quarians put GUNS on their Liveships (and without their live ships, the Quarians go extinct in short order) as Adm Koris lays out in brutal detail.

-Polaris

[tractrpl]

Vormaerin wrote...

tractrpl wrote...


CONCLUSION: THE WRITERS DERPED!!!!!

No: CONCLUSION:  YOU ASSUME A LOT.


You assume that because you don't have the necessary information, the writers were incompetent.  That's BS.

There are lots of scenarios that could account for the population loss.   There is no evidence I am aware of that the level the population stabilized at (17mil) is the population that actually escaped.    There is no evidence about how many Quarians died fighting on the Geth side, starved to death, caught diseases, or suffered from whatever toxins the Geth had to clean up.

So basically, the geth, who were so kind to take care of the planet, decided to let the quarians that posed no threat to them starve to death? A 99% death rate from diseases and toxins is unheard of. Additionally, why would the Quarians use toxins on the Geth? It had to be the other way around. This leads to the conclusion that the geth deliberately tried to exterminate the Quarians, which doesn't fit the narrative. This means that the writers didn't think about it deeply enough. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO COMPREHEND I MEAN THEY ROYALLY SCREWED UP THE ENDING WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THEY WOULDN'T SCREW THIS UP???

[Der Bibliothekar]

@ alpha

The Geth weren't programmed using Asimovs Laws, and considering "Nulla poena sine lege" they can't be punished for the act of rebellion.

Modifié par Der Bibliothekar, 16 avril 2012 - 11:37 .

[IanPolaris]

curufinwe03 wrote...

T-0pel wrote...


Yeah but that is exactly the point of this thread. OP looks at it from a very black/white perspective. For him they were machines that rebeled and refused to obey orders, he refuses to acknoledge they were alive and says that they are: "Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.
"
He does not say both sides were wrong he clearly states the Quarians are the poor victims.

Correct, that is an extremist way to look at it, but the majority seems to think that geth were the victims and that the whole quarian species, except maybe for Tali, are just dicks. As usual, the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle between these two extrem opinions.

Name me a Quarian that has more than a handful of lines (and isn't Tali or Kal'Reeger) that isn't a 'dick'.  Maybe the starving Quarian in the Citadel in ME2 but that's pretty much it....or maybe Veetor (but he's not all there either).

-Polaris