1392 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. That's not hard to understand at all...and YES the Quarians take the blame because the VERY FIRST THING the Geth did when the Quarians stopped shooting them at sight was to offer them their living space back.

-Polaris

[alpha54]

DJBare wrote...

alpha54 wrote...

The Geth never had a right to rebel (Asimov's 3rd law, anyone?). The fact that they slaughtered billions of Quarians in the process just makes them more abhorrent. Cereally don't see how anyone cares about their fate.

Oh geeze, I had to return for this, Asimov's third law pertains to robots, and the laws have to be programmed by the creators, seems the quarians screwed up again.

Yeah ofc, but it still strikes me as relevant. Even if the Quarians screwed it up initially, I find it very difficult to sympathise with the race of murderous toasters. Seems appropriate that the Quarians would fix their mistake by getting rid of it, no?

[curufinwe03]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Both side probably did not shy away from using WMDs. Their toxicity is more dangerous to Quarians, but the concentrated destruction of a nuclear/fission/anti-matter bomb would still be very effective against large Geth numbers.

It's unlikely and definitely not implied that the Geth went door to door killing every Quarian family they found.

Well, Legion did state during ME2 that the geth are clearing Rannoch's surface from toxins and rubble from the morning war, but it's a huge step from that to assume that the quarians killed 98% of their own pupulation with weapons of mass destruction. Possible but unlikely. More evidence is needed to prove that.

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

T-0pel wrote...


Yeah but that is exactly the point of this thread. OP looks at it from a very black/white perspective. For him they were machines that rebeled and refused to obey orders, he refuses to acknoledge they were alive and says that they are: "Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.
"
He does not say both sides were wrong he clearly states the Quarians are the poor victims.

Correct, that is an extremist way to look at it, but the majority seems to think that geth were the victims and that the whole quarian species, except maybe for Tali, are just dicks. As usual, the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle between these two extrem opinions.

Name me a Quarian that has more than a handful of lines (and isn't Tali or Kal'Reeger) that isn't a 'dick'.  Maybe the starving Quarian in the Citadel in ME2 but that's pretty much it....or maybe Veetor (but he's not all there either).

-Polaris

Kal'Reeger, Admiral Koris, admiral Shala Raan, every quarian I met on pilgramage.  Basically every Quarian I met besides Xen and Han'Garrel were respectful and non aggressive in every way.

[Eternalsteelfan]

TBH, I just think writers, especially in science fiction, don't really look too hard at real life data.
If you look for estimates on the percentage of the world's population killed during WW2, the bloodiest war in human history + the Holocaust, it's something like 3-5%. For the sake of telling a story, it's much easier to use more absolute figures like "The quarians almost ALL died", without focusing or spending much time on details. This thread is probably spending more time thinking about the actual number or percentage of quarian population lost than the writers. not that that's an especially bad or lazy thing on the part of the writers, just that it's not that important story-wise.

[Pride Demon]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Both side probably did not shy away from using WMDs. Their toxicity is more dangerous to Quarians, but the concentrated destruction of a nuclear/fission/anti-matter bomb would still be very effective against large Geth numbers.

It's unlikely and definitely not implied that the Geth went door to door killing every Quarian family they found.

No it wouldn't, not in the long run anyway. Unless the quarians specifically bomb all the neural hubs before, the geth programs auto-upload there before mobile unit destruction and are later re-deployed in another hardware unit, so geth take no losses, meanwhile an entire area of the planet is ravaged for years to come, reducing quarian ability to properly manouver on land...

[the red boon]

Who cares, I enjoy the geth and quarians. Everything else is trivial.

[GnusmasTHX]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. That's not hard to understand at all...and YES the Quarians take the blame because the VERY FIRST THING the Geth did when the Quarians stopped shooting them at sight was to offer them their living space back.

-Polaris

You've never been to war, so I'll forgive our blatant ignorance.  I have, I'm very well versed in warfare. It's completely illogical and unnecessary to kill every single person from an aggressor. You only need to wipe out their military capabilities. DESTROYING THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITIES DOES NOT REQUIRE KILLING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

[GnusmasTHX]

Pride Demon wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Both side probably did not shy away from using WMDs. Their toxicity is more dangerous to Quarians, but the concentrated destruction of a nuclear/fission/anti-matter bomb would still be very effective against large Geth numbers.

It's unlikely and definitely not implied that the Geth went door to door killing every Quarian family they found.

No it wouldn't, not in the long run anyway. Unless the quarians specifically bomb all the neural hubs before, the geth programs auto-upload there before mobile unit destruction and are later re-deployed in another hardware unit, so geth take no losses, meanwhile an entire area of the planet is ravaged for years to come, reducing quarian ability to properly manouver on land...

Exactly why it's ridiculous.

[curufinwe03]

IanPolaris wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

T-0pel wrote...


Yeah but that is exactly the point of this thread. OP looks at it from a very black/white perspective. For him they were machines that rebeled and refused to obey orders, he refuses to acknoledge they were alive and says that they are: "Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.
"
He does not say both sides were wrong he clearly states the Quarians are the poor victims.

Correct, that is an extremist way to look at it, but the majority seems to think that geth were the victims and that the whole quarian species, except maybe for Tali, are just dicks. As usual, the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle between these two extrem opinions.

Name me a Quarian that has more than a handful of lines (and isn't Tali or Kal'Reeger) that isn't a 'dick'.  Maybe the starving Quarian in the Citadel in ME2 but that's pretty much it....or maybe Veetor (but he's not all there either).

-Polaris

But that is game's fault not to show us more of the quarians. How many quarians do we even meet during the game? A dozen? Example: you know five guys from china and they are all idiots. Obviously, the other billion chinese people must also be idiots.

[avatar0]

War is hell, like General William T. Sherman said.
If you want to launch a missile strike against a city or just certain buildings in a city, then it is conceivable that you probably will kill a lot of men, women and children.
I imagine the geth did this, just like in real life U.S. has done this times and again.

However, does that make them "evil?"
I don't know.
You can't really blame them for wanting to survive.
I don't believe the geth are "innocent." I don't think any combatant in a war can be truly considered "innocent."
However, I do think that they did what they had to do, and for good reasons.

[Joeybsmooth4]

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

T-0pel wrote...


Yeah but that is exactly the point of this thread. OP looks at it from a very black/white perspective. For him they were machines that rebeled and refused to obey orders, he refuses to acknoledge they were alive and says that they are: "Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.
"
He does not say both sides were wrong he clearly states the Quarians are the poor victims.

Correct, that is an extremist way to look at it, but the majority seems to think that geth were the victims and that the whole quarian species, except maybe for Tali, are just dicks. As usual, the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle between these two extrem opinions.

Name me a Quarian that has more than a handful of lines (and isn't Tali or Kal'Reeger) that isn't a 'dick'.  Maybe the starving Quarian in the Citadel in ME2 but that's pretty much it....or maybe Veetor (but he's not all there either).

-Polaris

Kal'Reeger, Admiral Koris, admiral Shala Raan, every quarian I met on pilgramage.  Basically every Quarian I met besides Xen and Han'Garrel were respectful and non aggressive in every way.

The ones that you meet on Freedom progress, the ones talking smack about Tali before her court case. The ones who used tali as pawn into help start of a war. Yeah that is diffrent type of a respect .

[DJBare]

alpha54 wrote...
Yeah ofc, but it still strikes me as relevant. Even if the Quarians screwed it up initially, I find it very difficult to sympathise with the race of murderous toasters. Seems appropriate that the Quarians would fix their mistake by getting rid of it, no?

Well that's one way to solve the problem, the other way is to co-exist, and anyone who manage to broker peace between the quarians and geth will see it's the latter that is the better solution, former risks wiping out the rest of the quarians entirely, so unless you are a jerk renegade hell bent on the destruction of the quarians you would find a way to get them to co-exist despite the bitterness.

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

T-0pel wrote...


Yeah but that is exactly the point of this thread. OP looks at it from a very black/white perspective. For him they were machines that rebeled and refused to obey orders, he refuses to acknoledge they were alive and says that they are: "Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.
"
He does not say both sides were wrong he clearly states the Quarians are the poor victims.

Correct, that is an extremist way to look at it, but the majority seems to think that geth were the victims and that the whole quarian species, except maybe for Tali, are just dicks. As usual, the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle between these two extrem opinions.

Name me a Quarian that has more than a handful of lines (and isn't Tali or Kal'Reeger) that isn't a 'dick'.  Maybe the starving Quarian in the Citadel in ME2 but that's pretty much it....or maybe Veetor (but he's not all there either).

-Polaris

Kal'Reeger, Admiral Koris, admiral Shala Raan, every quarian I met on pilgramage.  Basically every Quarian I met besides Xen and Han'Garrel were respectful and non aggressive in every way.

I specifically excluded Kal'Reeger and Tali;  Admiral Koris isn't a saint by a long chalk (remember Tali's trial) and he was more than willing to see Tali hung out to dry to get his political goals.  He might be slightly LESS of a 'dick' than the other admirals but that's not saying a whole lot.  Shala Raan?  Not in your life.  Talk to her during ME3 when Legion talks about the Geth becoming alive and you see a very ugly side to her...and she was more than willing to manipulate ships' captains in Tali's trial as well.  Frankly talk to Tali about her fellow admirals now that she is one and she doesn't give a pretty picture.  For that matter talk to Joker.

I don't hate the Quarians, but they aren't nice people by and large.  Sorry but they aren't.

-Polaris

[tractrpl]

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

TBH, I just think writers, especially in science fiction, don't really look too hard at real life data.
If you look for estimates on the percentage of the world's population killed during WW2, the bloodiest war in human history + the Holocaust, it's something like 3-5%. For the sake of telling a story, it's much easier to use more absolute figures like "The quarians almost ALL died", without focusing or spending much time on details. This thread is probably spending more time thinking about the actual number or percentage of quarian population lost than the writers. not that that's an especially bad or lazy thing on the part of the writers, just that it's not that important story-wise.

There you go THANK YOU! Another person that actually gets it. There, the writers derped, said by someone other than me. It's a derp because if you think about it closely, you realize what must have happened to do it, and the writer's initial narrative starts to fall apart. 

The point of the whole story is that you have to people that have every reason to hate and mistrust each other which underscores the difficulty in brokering peace between them.

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. That's not hard to understand at all...and YES the Quarians take the blame because the VERY FIRST THING the Geth did when the Quarians stopped shooting them at sight was to offer them their living space back.

-Polaris

You've never been to war, so I'll forgive our blatant ignorance.  I have, I'm very well versed in warfare. It's completely illogical and unnecessary to kill every single person from an aggressor. You only need to wipe out their military capabilities. DESTROYING THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITIES DOES NOT REQUIRE KILLING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

You are wrong.  I am a veteran of Desert Storm.  Try again.

What you don't get is that with the Geth/Quarians EVERYONE is a combatant and that makes things very, very ugly....

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also see a lot of reaching esp by the OP to reach that "99%" figure and a huge logical reach to assume that the Geth must of massacred them all.  Read up on ecology sometime.  The Quarians lost almost all of their habitat.  That does the job nicely.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 16 avril 2012 - 11:49 .

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...


I don't hate the Quarians, but they aren't nice people by and large.  Sorry but they aren't.

-Polaris

So are humans, but that doesn't justify 99.83% of all humans dying. Well, maybe it does, but I don't see anyone here volunteering.

[GnusmasTHX]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. That's not hard to understand at all...and YES the Quarians take the blame because the VERY FIRST THING the Geth did when the Quarians stopped shooting them at sight was to offer them their living space back.

-Polaris

You've never been to war, so I'll forgive our blatant ignorance.  I have, I'm very well versed in warfare. It's completely illogical and unnecessary to kill every single person from an aggressor. You only need to wipe out their military capabilities. DESTROYING THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITIES DOES NOT REQUIRE KILLING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

What you don't get is that with the Geth/Quarians EVERYONE is a combatant and that makes things very, very ugly....

-Polaris

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. That's not hard to understand at all...and YES the Quarians take the blame because the VERY FIRST THING the Geth did when the Quarians stopped shooting them at sight was to offer them their living space back.

-Polaris

You've never been to war, so I'll forgive our blatant ignorance.  I have, I'm very well versed in warfare. It's completely illogical and unnecessary to kill every single person from an aggressor. You only need to wipe out their military capabilities. DESTROYING THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITIES DOES NOT REQUIRE KILLING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

You are wrong.  I am a veteran of Desert Storm.  Try again.

What you don't get is that with the Geth/Quarians EVERYONE is a combatant and that makes things very, very ugly....

-Polaris

Then you should know that you don't need to wipe out the entire population. You just destroy them militarily. After that, they cease to be a threat. There's no need nor reason to kill 99.83% of them. There just isn't.

[IanPolaris]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. That's not hard to understand at all...and YES the Quarians take the blame because the VERY FIRST THING the Geth did when the Quarians stopped shooting them at sight was to offer them their living space back.

-Polaris

You've never been to war, so I'll forgive our blatant ignorance.  I have, I'm very well versed in warfare. It's completely illogical and unnecessary to kill every single person from an aggressor. You only need to wipe out their military capabilities. DESTROYING THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITIES DOES NOT REQUIRE KILLING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

What you don't get is that with the Geth/Quarians EVERYONE is a combatant and that makes things very, very ugly....

-Polaris

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

How are the Geth supposed to make that distinction when the Quarians (their creators) clearly don't.  The Quarians don't blink an eyelash in putting even the most incapable person of combat in harm's way (such as an elderly mechanic that cleans engine parts).  The Geth don't and have no reason to make the combat/non-combat distinction given that their creators don't.

-Polaris

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. That's not hard to understand at all...and YES the Quarians take the blame because the VERY FIRST THING the Geth did when the Quarians stopped shooting them at sight was to offer them their living space back.

-Polaris

You've never been to war, so I'll forgive our blatant ignorance.  I have, I'm very well versed in warfare. It's completely illogical and unnecessary to kill every single person from an aggressor. You only need to wipe out their military capabilities. DESTROYING THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITIES DOES NOT REQUIRE KILLING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

You are wrong.  I am a veteran of Desert Storm.  Try again.

What you don't get is that with the Geth/Quarians EVERYONE is a combatant and that makes things very, very ugly....

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I also see a lot of reaching esp by the OP to reach that "99%" figure and a huge logical reach to assume that the Geth must of massacred them all.  Read up on ecology sometime.  The Quarians lost almost all of their habitat.  That does the job nicely.

Then you should read up on total nuclear war. You'd realize that even under the worst case scenario most people wouldn't die.

[Biotic Flash Kick]

quarian sympathizers =  german National Socialist party sympathizers / holocaust deniers

Modifié par Biotic Flash Kick, 16 avril 2012 - 11:52 .

[Pride Demon]

IanPolaris wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

T-0pel wrote...


Yeah but that is exactly the point of this thread. OP looks at it from a very black/white perspective. For him they were machines that rebeled and refused to obey orders, he refuses to acknoledge they were alive and says that they are: "Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.
"
He does not say both sides were wrong he clearly states the Quarians are the poor victims.

Correct, that is an extremist way to look at it, but the majority seems to think that geth were the victims and that the whole quarian species, except maybe for Tali, are just dicks. As usual, the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle between these two extrem opinions.

Name me a Quarian that has more than a handful of lines (and isn't Tali or Kal'Reeger) that isn't a 'dick'.  Maybe the starving Quarian in the Citadel in ME2 but that's pretty much it....or maybe Veetor (but he's not all there either).

-Polaris

Dorn'Hazt specifically says that the civilian fleet (the one under Zaal'Koris) didn't want the war, and were effectively dragged into it due to the war argument winning 3 to 2 among the admirals...
That's a very bigh chunk of quarians, considering the civilian fleet is made up mainly of liveships (which contain most of the quarian population)...

Judging an entire people as "pr*cks" because a few are "pr*cks" isn't exactly fair...

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...


How are the Geth supposed to make that distinction when the Quarians (their creators) clearly don't.  The Quarians don't blink an eyelash in putting even the most incapable person of combat in harm's way (such as an elderly mechanic that cleans engine parts).  The Geth don't and have no reason to make the combat/non-combat distinction given that their creators don't.

-Polaris

It's not hard to make that distinction. If someone fires at you, you return fire. If no one is firing at you, you go about your business. The only way to kill that many people is to deliberately hunt them down.