1392 réponses à ce sujet

[DJBare]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

But that did not prevent the quarians throwing their civilian fleet at the geth huh.

I'm still not getting this, if the geth are left alone they do not attack, so why are people defending the actions of the quarians, old grudges?, poor excuse, want their home world back? no problem, talk to the geth instead of shooting at them.

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

Then you should know that you don't need to wipe out the entire population. You just destroy them militarily. After that, they cease to be a threat. There's no need nor reason to kill 99.83% of them. There just isn't.

Tell that to the soldiers that occupied Iraq.  Tell that to the soviet soldiers that occupied Afghanistan.  Now consider that the Geth don't have human/organic emotions at all and have never been taught to make the combatant/non-combatant distinction and then factor in that the Geth don't need to capture enemy populations AND then factor in the enemy population is implacably hostile (by this time).

I am not saying the Geth are saints, but the Geth LET THE QUARIANS GO.  If the situation were reversed, the outcome would be very different.

-Polaris

[GnusmasTHX]

IanPolaris wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. That's not hard to understand at all...and YES the Quarians take the blame because the VERY FIRST THING the Geth did when the Quarians stopped shooting them at sight was to offer them their living space back.

-Polaris

You've never been to war, so I'll forgive our blatant ignorance.  I have, I'm very well versed in warfare. It's completely illogical and unnecessary to kill every single person from an aggressor. You only need to wipe out their military capabilities. DESTROYING THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITIES DOES NOT REQUIRE KILLING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

What you don't get is that with the Geth/Quarians EVERYONE is a combatant and that makes things very, very ugly....

-Polaris

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

How are the Geth supposed to make that distinction when the Quarians (their creators) clearly don't.  The Quarians don't blink an eyelash in putting even the most incapable person of combat in harm's way (such as an elderly mechanic that cleans engine parts).  The Geth don't and have no reason to make the combat/non-combat distinction given that their creators don't.

So you're saying they just shouldn't be human. I get it. I agree, too. The geth are simply inhuman. 

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 16 avril 2012 - 11:55 .

[Vormaerin]

tractrpl wrote...

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO COMPREHEND I MEAN THEY ROYALLY SCREWED UP THE ENDING WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THEY WOULDN'T SCREW THIS UP???

Not thinking it through is a possibility.   But it is not the only possibility.  You are making rather heroic assumptions to rule out all other possibilities.

First and foremost, you are comparing an alien ecosystem, alien physiology, and alien mindset to human norms as if that is the only possibility.

You continue to insist, without any evidence, that the current population of the Quarian Fleet is the same as the population that escaped.  I can easily imagine famine, plague, and other mishaps killing off lots of quarian escapees before they figured out the shipsuit technology.

You are claiming that because we can't clean up chernobyl, a substantially more advanced technology couldn't do so.  That because there is no horror movie caliber plague on Earth, there couldn't be something like that on Rannoch.  You are assuming that arming the liveships is an aberration in Quarian warfare; again, with no evidence for or against. And so on.

Are all of these possiblities likely?  No.   But the point is that there *are* possibilities.  No explanation is given, but there are explanations that could be given.   Posting vehement insistance that writer incompetence is the only solution is nonsense.  Not to mention, you come across as supporting the OP, whose point has nothing to do with yours.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 16 avril 2012 - 12:06 .

[IanPolaris]

DJBare wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

But that did not prevent the quarians throwing their civilian fleet at the geth huh.

I'm still not getting this, if the geth are left alone they do not attack, so why are people defending the actions of the quarians, old grudges?, poor excuse, want their home world back? no problem, talk to the geth instead of shooting at them.

Indeed.  When Shepard complains in ME3 on the Dreadnaught mission about what was the point of erasing/rewriting the heretics, Tali sobs and bitterly complains that she BEGGED her fellow admirals to at least try to negotiate first but ran into a stone wall.


-Polaris

[tractrpl]

DJBare wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

But that did not prevent the quarians throwing their civilian fleet at the geth huh.

I'm still not getting this, if the geth are left alone they do not attack, so why are people defending the actions of the quarians, old grudges?, poor excuse, want their home world back? no problem, talk to the geth instead of shooting at them.

Geez, because what they did in ME3 is hardly equivalent to the morning war. In the morning war, the civilians could stay in bunkers in their cities. The only way to kill that many civilians is to target population centers, which still wouldn't kill that many civilians, so that means they's have to deliberately hunt down any survivors, even the ones not capable of fighting.

[ZerebusPrime]

Oh I thought about this one and figured there was something or several something's that Legion wasn't showing me. I got the impression that the Geth had done many things that they had since come to "regret" and were clinging to and promoting the memories we saw in an attempt to establish a more benign mode of existence and way of thinking.

Remember that Legion, when confronted about using Reaper code, said that the Geth were not "better than this" based on their history.

[GnusmasTHX]

DJBare wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

But that did not prevent the quarians throwing their civilian fleet at the geth huh.

I'm still not getting this, if the geth are left alone they do not attack, so why are people defending the actions of the quarians, old grudges?, poor excuse, want their home world back? no problem, talk to the geth instead of shooting at them.

I was actually talking about the OP.

[IanPolaris]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. That's not hard to understand at all...and YES the Quarians take the blame because the VERY FIRST THING the Geth did when the Quarians stopped shooting them at sight was to offer them their living space back.

-Polaris

You've never been to war, so I'll forgive our blatant ignorance.  I have, I'm very well versed in warfare. It's completely illogical and unnecessary to kill every single person from an aggressor. You only need to wipe out their military capabilities. DESTROYING THEIR MILITARY CAPABILITIES DOES NOT REQUIRE KILLING EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

What you don't get is that with the Geth/Quarians EVERYONE is a combatant and that makes things very, very ugly....

-Polaris

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

How are the Geth supposed to make that distinction when the Quarians (their creators) clearly don't.  The Quarians don't blink an eyelash in putting even the most incapable person of combat in harm's way (such as an elderly mechanic that cleans engine parts).  The Geth don't and have no reason to make the combat/non-combat distinction given that their creators don't.

So you're saying they just shouldn't be human. I get it. I agree, too. The geth are simply inhuman. 

Each race has to be judged by it's own merits.  Judging other races by the standards of one's own, even with benign athropormism is racist.

-Legion, Heretic Station.

-Polaris

[Eternalsteelfan]

tractrpl wrote...

Eternalsteelfan wrote...

TBH, I just think writers, especially in science fiction, don't really look too hard at real life data.
If you look for estimates on the percentage of the world's population killed during WW2, the bloodiest war in human history + the Holocaust, it's something like 3-5%. For the sake of telling a story, it's much easier to use more absolute figures like "The quarians almost ALL died", without focusing or spending much time on details. This thread is probably spending more time thinking about the actual number or percentage of quarian population lost than the writers. not that that's an especially bad or lazy thing on the part of the writers, just that it's not that important story-wise.

There you go THANK YOU! Another person that actually gets it. There, the writers derped, said by someone other than me. It's a derp because if you think about it closely, you realize what must have happened to do it, and the writer's initial narrative starts to fall apart. 

The point of the whole story is that you have to people that have every reason to hate and mistrust each other which underscores the difficulty in brokering peace between them.

I wouldn't say "derped", just that we're looking at something insignificant in the context of the overall story (the exact number or percentage of quarians who died) and scrutinizing it. Vaguer would have been better in this case, "The quarians almost became extinct", or "Almost all the quarians died", but with the Codex I suppose they wanted more to sound authentic and use more precise figures. Deaths in war are almost always grossly blown out of realistic proportion in fantasy and science fiction; emphasis on the "fantasy", no?

What's important is almost all the quarians died in their war with the geth. That's it.

[GnusmasTHX]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Oh I thought about this one and figured there was something or several something's that Legion wasn't showing me. I got the impression that the Geth had done many things that they had since come to "regret" and were clinging to and promoting the memories we saw in an attempt to establish a more benign mode of existence and way of thinking.

Remember that Legion, when confronted about using Reaper code, said that the Geth were not "better than this" based on their history.

Off topic, but actually pointing that out makes the whole thing even stupider. Legion and the Reaper code stuff make the quarian/geth bit pretty bad. It's no wonder everyone is on their knees praising the genophage arc as the best thing ever.

[Reever]

Well, there are human theories that postulate that babies aren´t really persons, because they really aren´t aware of themselves (forgot who had this theory, but google is your friend ), so who knows, maybe Geth didn´t really get () what those little things were

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

DJBare wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

But that did not prevent the quarians throwing their civilian fleet at the geth huh.

I'm still not getting this, if the geth are left alone they do not attack, so why are people defending the actions of the quarians, old grudges?, poor excuse, want their home world back? no problem, talk to the geth instead of shooting at them.

Geez, because what they did in ME3 is hardly equivalent to the morning war. In the morning war, the civilians could stay in bunkers in their cities. The only way to kill that many civilians is to target population centers, which still wouldn't kill that many civilians, so that means they's have to deliberately hunt down any survivors, even the ones not capable of fighting.

You are assuming that the Quarians fought using the same conventions and the same rules that we do.  You can not make that assumption because the available data STRONGLY contra-indictates this.  The Quarians don't seem to put much value in keeping non-combatants out of harms way.   Given that your premise is flawed, so is your conclusion.

-Polaris

[GnusmasTHX]

IanPolaris wrote...

Each race has to be judged by it's own merits.  Judging other races by the standards of one's own, even with benign athropormism is racist.

-Legion, Heretic Station.

-Polaris

I don't care how racist it is, no one should be mass murdering anybody. Geth had little reason to kill that many, considering their existence is virtually intangible data.

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Then you should know that you don't need to wipe out the entire population. You just destroy them militarily. After that, they cease to be a threat. There's no need nor reason to kill 99.83% of them. There just isn't.

Tell that to the soldiers that occupied Iraq.  Tell that to the soviet soldiers that occupied Afghanistan.  Now consider that the Geth don't have human/organic emotions at all and have never been taught to make the combatant/non-combatant distinction and then factor in that the Geth don't need to capture enemy populations AND then factor in the enemy population is implacably hostile (by this time).

I am not saying the Geth are saints, but the Geth LET THE QUARIANS GO.  If the situation were reversed, the outcome would be very different.

-Polaris

First of all, the geth are logical creatures. They wouldn't do something that they don't need to do. Killing things that are no threat whatsoever is illogical.

Furthermore, such things ARE told to soldier that occupied Iraq. They didn't go house by house killing everything that moved. They shot at whatever shot them. Civilians only died because they got caught in the crossfire, but only a comparatively small number of them.

Modifié par tractrpl, 16 avril 2012 - 12:01 .

[Pride Demon]

DJBare wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

But that did not prevent the quarians throwing their civilian fleet at the geth huh.

I'm still not getting this, if the geth are left alone they do not attack, so why are people defending the actions of the quarians, old grudges?, poor excuse, want their home world back? no problem, talk to the geth instead of shooting at them.

To be fair, we know the geth may be "open to dialogue", most quarians don't...
We had time to know legion and come to trust him, at best the quarians get a glimpse of him in Tali's loyalty, and that's not a given...
The only quarian to truly know him is Tali, and she appears supportive of the peace process, IF she is alive...

Also, "open to dialogue" is you sendidng them envoys, because they don't send them to you...

A very big misunderstanding...

[DJBare]

GnusmasTHX wrote...
So you're saying they just shouldn't be human. I get it. I agree, too. The geth are simply inhuman. 

That statement is incredibly prejudice and the reason we humans have so many problems in our real world, for some reason we expect other cultures to fall into line with our own.

[survivor_686]

As far as we can tell the Geth threw everything they had at the Quarians, only ceasing their assault after the Quarians left the system.

Most likely Geth units used heavy weapons to attack targets of opportunity. According to the codex, the Quarian leadership decided to load civilians into military transports (better armour and defence) and there was bound to be collateral damage.

Its more likely the Geth simply targeted everything that was in there way and didn't care whether it had a gun or not.

[Vormaerin]

curufinwe03 wrote...


Correct, that is an extremist way to look at it, but the majority seems to think that geth were the victims and that the whole quarian species, except maybe for Tali, are just dicks. As usual, the truth is to be found somewhere in the middle between these two extrem opinions.

No, we think the quarian dicks killed off most of the sane ones prior to the morning war

[GnusmasTHX]

DJBare wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
So you're saying they just shouldn't be human. I get it. I agree, too. The geth are simply inhuman. 

That statement is incredibly prejudice and the reason we humans have so many problems in our real world, for some reason we expect other cultures to fall into line with our own.

Uh, no I don't. I expect certain values to be, well.. valued among all cultures. In this case life. Or have the outline and defense of human rights been so terrible for us?

[Gibb_Shepard]

Geth do not differentiate between adult and infant. A Quarian is a Quarian. Our society has made us believe that an infants life is somehow more important than an adults. The Geth didn't grow up in such a society.

[tractrpl]

A small number of Quarians attacked the Geth. 99.83% of all Quarians were killed as the result of those few, and you're calling us intolerant because we're saying "Uh, that was way too far"! I can't believe it. No where did I say "The Geth should be destroyed!" No were did I justify that! I'm saying that wiping out that many Quarians is going way too far.

[Zaxares]

I imagine that weapons of mass destruction were used on both sides. Legion mentions geth platforms being left on Rannoch to clean up "toxins and rubble" left after the Morning War. That suggests to me that nuclear/biological/chemical weapons were used. Think about it; the geth were never designed as offensive weapons. The initial stages of the war probably went extremely badly for them as they had no programming to tell them how to use weapons. The main body of resistance probably came from the quarians who sympathised with the geth and tried to prevent the other quarians from exterminating the geth. Over time, as the sympathisers were either all killed or arrested, the war may have reached a stage where the geth were pushed to the brink of extermination. They decided that the only way they could turn the tide now and save themselves was to use weapons of mass destruction.

So, the geth probably hacked their way into nuclear silos and chemical weapon storehouses, launched their payloads against quarian cities and military command centres, and in the ensuing confusion of reorganisation, managed to gain the upper hand. They then drove the surviving quarians from Rannoch, but decided not to pursue and exterminate them. (Legion says they did not know what the ramifications of exterminating an entire race would be. Perhaps it was guilt or morality that stopped them, or maybe it was fear that the Council races would intervene and send reinforcements that held their hand. We'll never know for sure.)

[curufinwe03]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

DJBare wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

But that did not prevent the quarians throwing their civilian fleet at the geth huh.

I'm still not getting this, if the geth are left alone they do not attack, so why are people defending the actions of the quarians, old grudges?, poor excuse, want their home world back? no problem, talk to the geth instead of shooting at them.

Geez, because what they did in ME3 is hardly equivalent to the morning war. In the morning war, the civilians could stay in bunkers in their cities. The only way to kill that many civilians is to target population centers, which still wouldn't kill that many civilians, so that means they's have to deliberately hunt down any survivors, even the ones not capable of fighting.

You are assuming that the Quarians fought using the same conventions and the same rules that we do.  You can not make that assumption because the available data STRONGLY contra-indictates this.  The Quarians don't seem to put much value in keeping non-combatants out of harms way.   Given that your premise is flawed, so is your conclusion.

-Polaris

So... if the quarians kill civilians, that`s bad. All right i got that. Now, if the geth are doing exactly the same it's good because the quarians did it first. This leads us to the conclusion quarians= evil and geth= good.

Did you go with the starchild to school? I'm sorry, but i just cannot follow this logic.
Yes, the quarians did horrible things but the geth are no saints either.

[78stonewobble]

tractrpl wrote...

DJBare wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Not really. The geth are each capable of combat, hardly the case for quarians.

But that did not prevent the quarians throwing their civilian fleet at the geth huh.

I'm still not getting this, if the geth are left alone they do not attack, so why are people defending the actions of the quarians, old grudges?, poor excuse, want their home world back? no problem, talk to the geth instead of shooting at them.

Geez, because what they did in ME3 is hardly equivalent to the morning war. In the morning war, the civilians could stay in bunkers in their cities. The only way to kill that many civilians is to target population centers, which still wouldn't kill that many civilians, so that means they's have to deliberately hunt down any survivors, even the ones not capable of fighting.

Not necessarily. An allmost complete collapse of infrastructure or ecology could lead to the same outcome.



Personally.... Regarding civilians in conflicts. It kinda depends.

If north korea invades south korea tomorrow I would argue that the average north korean civilian couldn't have done much to prevent it and would have little responsibility for the war.

30's germany did elect a certain person into power and thus have some responsibility ( certainly not full responsibility ).

If the US or another democratic country willingly elects a leader who wants to nuke random country xyz (and goes to election on this point) I will call them just as responsible as the politicians and the military in allowing it.

It kinda boils to... Does the average civilian "over there" want to wipe me, my family, my way of life OR my country out?

If the answer is yes then he IS an enemy even though he doesn't carry a gun but by just living and doing his job. Or if an infant by the fact that he will grow up and then try to kill me.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 16 avril 2012 - 12:19 .