1392 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

First of all, the geth are logical creatures. They wouldn't do something that they don't need to do. Killing things that are no threat whatsoever is illogical.

According to the available data they were.  Legion himself to Koris says it brilliantly:  "Every time the creators felt they had the smallest chance of victory, they have attacked us 100% o the time".  Given that apparent fact, the logical thing to do is eliminate the threat.  You are injecting emotion into this and the Geth (esp the early Geth) don't have that.

Furthermore, such things ARE told to soldier that occupied Iraq. They didn't go house by house killing everything that moved. They shot at whatever shot them. Civilians only died because they got caught in the crossfire, but only a comparatively small number of them.

Yes, but that because we are HUMAN and we have certain rules we agree to follow that aren't strictly speaking logical AND we need the population there.  The point is that looking at it strictly from a threat/non-threat perspective, it WOULD be easier just to eliminate every possible enemy in an occupied country and if you keep getting attacked, you keep killing.  It would be inhuman, but that is exactly the point.  NEITHER side is human.

-Polaris

[Kreid]

I don't know how anyone can sympathize with the Quarians anymore, they go from misunderstood to dumb, then dumber and then desperately stupid, no matter how you see it they made the poorest decisions ever and pretty much brought it all upon themselves.

[GnusmasTHX]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Geth do not differentiate between adult and infant. A Quarian is a Quarian. Our society has made us believe that an infants life is somehow more important than an adults. The Geth didn't grow up in such a society.

Perhaps. Since they used them as soldiers, they might well have been programmed with that knowledge.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 16 avril 2012 - 12:08 .

[DJBare]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Uh, no I don't. I expect certain values to be, well.. valued among all cultures. In this case life. Or have the outline and defense of human rights been so terrible for us?

And since when have quarians been human, I hope you see my point in that statement.

[nitefyre410]

DJBare wrote...

]But that did not prevent the quarians throwing their civilian fleet at the geth huh.

I'm still not getting this, if the geth are left alone they do not attack, so why are people defending the actions of the quarians, old grudges?, poor excuse, want their home world back? no problem, talk to the geth instead of shooting at them.

 

Oh  thats not a hard answer  find when you think about.. Why should they open a dialogue with something that is not alive  in their eyes. Why should they open a dialogue to build peace with something they feel is inferior and still just a tool that be reclaimed.  

"Its far easier to start a war than it is build peace."  paraphrased from a Gundam series...it holds some truth to it when you think about.

[Pride Demon]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

Then you should know that you don't need to wipe out the entire population. You just destroy them militarily. After that, they cease to be a threat. There's no need nor reason to kill 99.83% of them. There just isn't.

Tell that to the soldiers that occupied Iraq.  Tell that to the soviet soldiers that occupied Afghanistan.  Now consider that the Geth don't have human/organic emotions at all and have never been taught to make the combatant/non-combatant distinction and then factor in that the Geth don't need to capture enemy populations AND then factor in the enemy population is implacably hostile (by this time).

I am not saying the Geth are saints, but the Geth LET THE QUARIANS GO.  If the situation were reversed, the outcome would be very different.

-Polaris

Not out of pity, though. Their goal was freedom and they aknowledged they had achieved that. They considered following, but then simply noticed they didn't have enough computational power to properly predict the outcome of destroying an entire race.
They only wanted to avoid creating an unknown quantity by totally eradicating the quarians following into other species' territories, they didn't do it out of moral superiority...

[tractrpl]

78stonewobble wrote...
Not necessarily. An allmost complete collapse of infrastructure or ecology could lead to the same outcome.

Even if that were true (which it's not) such a thing is totally unecessary. The Quarians would not want to wipe out that infrastructure, and the Geth do not NEED to do so merely for self defence.

[GnusmasTHX]

DJBare wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Uh, no I don't. I expect certain values to be, well.. valued among all cultures. In this case life. Or have the outline and defense of human rights been so terrible for us?

And since when have quarians been human, I hope you see my point in that statement.

There is no point because it doesn't matter what species they are, and I also have not once called them human.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 16 avril 2012 - 12:10 .

[DJBare]

nitefyre410 wrote...  

"Its far easier to start a war than it is build peace."  paraphrased from a Gundam series...it holds some truth to it when you think about.

Yup.

[count_4]

moater boat wrote...
Where's they option for, "Hey, I'm sorry about the genocide your people experienced at the hands of malfunctioning machines."

The Geth were sentient beings at this point that didn't do anything wrong. They asked a question and the Quarian wanted to kill them for the implications this question had.
It's like killing all slaves to end slavery. Pretty stupid idea to be honest.

Now, would you mind explaining the difference between you and someone whose body is made out of a different material (e.g. not carbon-based organic)? Why are your parents not allowed to kill you if you don't do what you're told? After all, you're clearly just a malefunctioning machine made of squishy parts.

Is life defined by the material the body is made of?

Modifié par count_4, 16 avril 2012 - 12:13 .

[GnusmasTHX]

They're sentient when they were together. They should've just taken each one of them into a different room and blown their heads off.

[IanPolaris]

curufinwe03 wrote...

So... if the quarians kill civilians, that`s bad. All right i got that. Now, if the geth are doing exactly the same it's good because the quarians did it first. This leads us to the conclusion quarians= evil and geth= good.

If a civilian picks up a rifle and shoots at me and I am a soldier, I have EVERY right under the rules of war to kill him.  That civilian is now a combatant...and that is using human war usages.  The point I am making is that the Quarians don't seem to respect the civilian==non-combatant traditions that human cultures do and GIVEN that the Geth only have data from the Quarians, it is logical to think the Geth wouldn't either.

That is just logic.  It's neither good nor evil.

Did you go with the starchild to school? I'm sorry, but i just cannot follow this logic.
Yes, the quarians did horrible things but the geth are no saints either.

I never said the Geth were saints and said just the opposite a few posts ago.  I also note in passing that deliberately insulting a fellow poster is a bannable offense.  Watch it.  The point I am making is the Geth were fighting for survival and the only examples they had were a race of organics that attacked them 100% of the time when they thought victory was achievable.  If I were the Geth I wouldn't let any Quarians live anywhere on my planets either with that attitude.  The moment that attitude changed (within MINUTES after that attitude changed in fact) the Geth gave living space back to the Quarians.

-Polaris

[Tleining]

Pride Demon wrote...

Dorn'Hazt specifically says that the civilian fleet (the one under Zaal'Koris) didn't want the war, and were effectively dragged into it due to the war argument winning 3 to 2 among the admirals...
That's a very bigh chunk of quarians, considering the civilian fleet is made up mainly of liveships (which contain most of the quarian population)...

Judging an entire people as "pr*cks" because a few are "pr*cks" isn't exactly fair...

which is actually a minor inconsistency. According to the Codex there is a Conclave, set up by the Captains of all the Vessels. So if the Conclave says "We don't want the War." The Admirals would have to step down after overruling that decision.
In ME1 and 2 the Quarian Government was displayed as almost democratic despite being under Martial Law. In ME3 the Admirals could make choices for the entire Fleet.

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
Not necessarily. An allmost complete collapse of infrastructure or ecology could lead to the same outcome.

Even if that were true (which it's not) such a thing is totally unecessary. The Quarians would not want to wipe out that infrastructure, and the Geth do not NEED to do so merely for self defence.

Actually it is true.  It's basic ecology.  The number one cause of extinction is loss of habitat (for whatever reason).

-Polaris

[GnusmasTHX]

The geth had access to the information to conduct a proper war, in fact since they were used for war beforehand, they might have already had it. They either decided it wasn't the proper course for them, or they didn't have it on-hand, realized they were already killing enough quarians and didn't see the need to Google it.

[Pride Demon]

Zaxares wrote...

I imagine that weapons of mass destruction were used on both sides. Legion mentions geth platforms being left on Rannoch to clean up "toxins and rubble" left after the Morning War. That suggests to me that nuclear/biological/chemical weapons were used. Think about it; the geth were never designed as offensive weapons. The initial stages of the war probably went extremely badly for them as they had no programming to tell them how to use weapons. The main body of resistance probably came from the quarians who sympathised with the geth and tried to prevent the other quarians from exterminating the geth. Over time, as the sympathisers were either all killed or arrested, the war may have reached a stage where the geth were pushed to the brink of extermination. They decided that the only way they could turn the tide now and save themselves was to use weapons of mass destruction.

So, the geth probably hacked their way into nuclear silos and chemical weapon storehouses, launched their payloads against quarian cities and military command centres, and in the ensuing confusion of reorganisation, managed to gain the upper hand. They then drove the surviving quarians from Rannoch, but decided not to pursue and exterminate them. (Legion says they did not know what the ramifications of exterminating an entire race would be. Perhaps it was guilt or morality that stopped them, or maybe it was fear that the Council races would intervene and send reinforcements that held their hand. We'll never know for sure.)

I agree with everything but the bolded part...
That's a wrong assumption caused by ME3 ignoring the fact many geth platforms were created for war. There were domestic servitude bots, agricultural units and labor units and also war units, so many geth definitely knew how to hold and use a gun and also how to operate warheads...

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

According to the available data they were.  Legion himself to Koris says it brilliantly:  "Every time the creators felt they had the smallest chance of victory, they have attacked us 100% o the time".  Given that apparent fact, the logical thing to do is eliminate the threat.  You are injecting emotion into this and the Geth (esp the early Geth) don't have that.


-Polaris

No, YOU are injecting human thoughts into the Geth. ONLY A HUMAN WOULD THINK "KILL THEM ALL". A machine would just eliminate the threat. Without a military, the Quarians would not be a threat. Eliminating the Quarian military would kill, at most, 5% of their population. Without a military, the Quarians would be no threat, and the Geth would be safe, no need to kill the rest of them. Furthermore, as machines, they would value efficiency. It takes much energy and time, with little gain, to go about killing every single Quarian breathing. On top of that, the Geth don't even need Rannoch! Once the Quarians were militarily defeated, the Geth WOULD HAVE LEFT. They ACTUALLY DID. But the narrative has them do it only after totally wiping the Quarians out. But WHY? They don't NEED Rannoch. They didn't NEED the star system. They could have LEFT WHENEVER. So why wait until AFTER they wipe them out. It all doesn't make logical sense, from a machine point of view. This is why the whol thing is a derp.

[Oldbones2]

War isn't for the faint of heart OP.

[KingZayd]

The Quarians used the Geth to fight their wars. It's quite likely, that the previous combat priorities were retained.

[Wildecker]

When the Quarians rushed to their ships to get off planet, they could not take along more than 17 million people. The rest had to stay on Rannoch and faced losing to the robots, so my take is that most of them decided to sell their lives dearly and take as many geth down with them as possible while the others resorted to suicide and "mercy killings" to spare their children the envisioned death by geth hands or a life as slaves. Saipans "Suicide Cliff" and Masada on a planetary scale. After all, you would be truly desperate to surrender to the machines. Or unconscious.

[Laurencio]

Bill Casey wrote...

We left the babies alone. However, without parents to take care of them, they ceased to function...
We could not calculate the ramifications of this action...

"We killed their parents, but we didn't know that infants weren't capeable of taking care of themselves. Whops?"

That's an admission of guilt if I ever saw one.

Modifié par Laurencio, 16 avril 2012 - 12:17 .

[Shaedlance]

If you fight a war, the best way to demoralize the enemy is to target civilian population centers. Churches, schools, medical facilities, etc.

Do we honestly know what war doctrine the Geth followed? Or did they just follow the example given by their creators. Since we can assume evertyhing they learned they learned from those that created them...

1) civilians are fair game
2) no quarter shall be given
3) the means justify the ends
4) all forms of combat are to be used on the enemy
5) if you see the enemy attempting to surrender, eliminate them

Now. The Geth did not follow this exactly, for one thing, they allowed the Quarians to escape Rannoch and the Quarian held systems. They did not pursue them past the veil. But, the Quarians dictated the theatre and actions of the war. Their own decision of genocide of a species in its infancy it what caused this. Do I feel bad that it escalated to the point of biblical proportions, absolutely. But the Quarians brought this on themselves. If you cannot handle the choices you yourself dictate in battle, then by all means, learn to make peace and plowshares, and not war and weapons.

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...


Actually it is true.  It's basic ecology.  The number one cause of extinction is loss of habitat (for whatever reason).

-Polaris

Gosh. It's true for a species that's already vulnerable. Most species, even ones that are not considered endangered, have only a few hundred thousand total in number. We humans (and quarians) have numbers in the billions. Even a global catastrophe of nuclear proportions is not likely to wipe out 99% of all humans.

[Federally]

I don't understand the confusion or the people who think there is a plot hole here. As far as I'm concerned it all adds up.

The Quarians were shown to be ruthless towards those who sided with the Geth. That's a fair amount of casualties.

In a planet wide war, especially an arid planet with very limited farmland, famine and disease would kill just as many if not more then actual combat.

Then of course you have the Geth which are machines not restrained by morals or conscience that are fighting for their very survival. With Geth sympathizers dead or jailed the Geth would only see two groups of Quarians left, those actively fighting and those supporting the fighters. So the Geth decide to kill as many as they can as quickly as possible until the Quarians quit or are wiped out.

This isn't any different the human wars on Earth. In WWII the allies targeted civilians too, we dropped nukes on civilian targets not military/industry. The US just decided to kill as many Japanese as it took to get a cease fire. The obvious difference being the Quarians were not willing to give up until they were nearly extinct as a species.

It all adds up to me and since the Quarians started the whole conflict, annihilated any Quarian resistance, and refused to give up on the war genocide really is the only solution.

[Funkdrspot]

Maybe, just maybe....it's possible you're taking a game too literal.