1392 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

According to the available data they were.  Legion himself to Koris says it brilliantly:  "Every time the creators felt they had the smallest chance of victory, they have attacked us 100% o the time".  Given that apparent fact, the logical thing to do is eliminate the threat.  You are injecting emotion into this and the Geth (esp the early Geth) don't have that.


-Polaris

No, YOU are injecting human thoughts into the Geth. ONLY A HUMAN WOULD THINK "KILL THEM ALL". A machine would just eliminate the threat. Without a military, the Quarians would not be a threat. Eliminating the Quarian military would kill, at most, 5% of their population. Without a military, the Quarians would be no threat, and the Geth would be safe, no need to kill the rest of them. Furthermore, as machines, they would value efficiency. It takes much energy and time, with little gain, to go about killing every single Quarian breathing. On top of that, the Geth don't even need Rannoch! Once the Quarians were militarily defeated, the Geth WOULD HAVE LEFT. They ACTUALLY DID. But the narrative has them do it only after totally wiping the Quarians out. But WHY? They don't NEED Rannoch. They didn't NEED the star system. They could have LEFT WHENEVER. So why wait until AFTER they wipe them out. It all doesn't make logical sense, from a machine point of view. This is why the whol thing is a derp.

You are wrong.  You are ASSUMING that the Geth would be able to tell between a Quarian that is a threat and a Quarian that is not a threat, but the available evidence strongly suggests that once the militants took over, that the ALL the Quarians were potential threats.  You are injecuting human values into the logic of a machine race that is distinctly non-human and was programmed by non-humans.  Don't do that.

-Polaris

[GnusmasTHX]

Shaedlance wrote...


If you fight a war, the best way to demoralize the enemy is to target civilian population centers. Churches, schools, medical facilities, etc.

Do we honestly know what war doctrine the Geth followed? Or did they just follow the example given by their creators. Since we can assume evertyhing they learned they learned from those that created them...

1) civilians are fair game
2) no quarter shall be given
3) the means justify the ends
4) all forms of combat are to be used on the enemy
5) if you see the enemy attempting to surrender, eliminate them

Now. The Geth did not follow this exactly, for one thing, they allowed the Quarians to escape Rannoch and the Quarian held systems. They did not pursue them past the veil. But, the Quarians dictated the theatre and actions of the war. Their own decision of genocide of a species in its infancy it what caused this. Do I feel bad that it escalated to the point of biblical proportions, absolutely. But the Quarians brought this on themselves. If you cannot handle the choices you yourself dictate in battle, then by all means, learn to make peace and plowshares, and not war and weapons.

This is if you're fighting man to man. You're fighting man to cluster of data that can at any point, leave its body for a new, shinier one and continue on.

It begs the question why they didn't leave for a new, shinier one capable of flight and leave.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 16 avril 2012 - 12:20 .

[Viquey]

Oh this is an interesting thread.

I always found the numbers kinda crazy. I like Zaxares hypothesis, up there. What wasn't killed in the initial blast probably died off soon after to the various ecological and sociological side effects. But I doubt the number who fled is the same number alive today. I bet tons died to disease and such thanks to collapsing immune systems.

But my input: Geth probably had great difficulty with the concept of non-combatants. Even geth who don't actively fight contribute their processing power to those who do. They operated on consensuses, and wouldn't know that the Quarians who weren't actively shooting weren't hostile/contributing in some other way.

Hell, they might've thought they were just destroying their hardware!

So just throwing that out there.

[Laurencio]

Shaedlance wrote...


If you fight a war, the best way to demoralize the enemy is to target civilian population centers. Churches, schools, medical facilities, etc.

Do we honestly know what war doctrine the Geth followed? Or did they just follow the example given by their creators. Since we can assume evertyhing they learned they learned from those that created them...

1) civilians are fair game
2) no quarter shall be given
3) the means justify the ends
4) all forms of combat are to be used on the enemy
5) if you see the enemy attempting to surrender, eliminate them

Now. The Geth did not follow this exactly, for one thing, they allowed the Quarians to escape Rannoch and the Quarian held systems. They did not pursue them past the veil. But, the Quarians dictated the theatre and actions of the war. Their own decision of genocide of a species in its infancy it what caused this. Do I feel bad that it escalated to the point of biblical proportions, absolutely. But the Quarians brought this on themselves. If you cannot handle the choices you yourself dictate in battle, then by all means, learn to make peace and plowshares, and not war and weapons.

What sort of logic is that? They were allowed to genocide the entire Quarian race because the Quarians wanted to wipe them out. So killing all quarians, civilans and non combatants alike was a logical step. What hell?

[Vormaerin]

curufinwe03 wrote...

So... if the quarians kill civilians, that`s bad. All right i got that. Now, if the geth are doing exactly the same it's good because the quarians did it first. This leads us to the conclusion quarians= evil and geth= good.

Did you go with the starchild to school? I'm sorry, but i just cannot follow this logic.
Yes, the quarians did horrible things but the geth are no saints either.

Well, I'd say you are having problems because you are imagining things.

No one has claimed that the geth are saints.   They are claiming that they aren't homicidal terminators like the OP posits.   They are also claiming that assuming the Quarians make the same codes of war as humans do is unsubstantiated.   And there's another subsection arguing that writer incompetence is not the only possible explanation for the data.

What we know is this:

Geth were accidentally made self aware.
Quarians split into pro Geth and anti Geth factions.
Anti Geth factions killed/imprisoned/intimidated the pro Geth Quarians.
Quarian militarists launched all out war on the Geth.
Quarians lost, badly.
Quarians fled and were not pursued.
300 years later, there are only 17 million quarians left.
During those 300 years, the Geth remained out of contact until a fraction joined Sovereign.
Quarians launched a new war after the Reaper invasion began.

The Geth most assuredly killed lots and lots of Quarians.  The Quarians most assuredly killed lots of Quarians.  Pestilence, starvation, and the like probably killed more Quarians than either the Geth or the Quarians did.

The Quarians are not being condemned for the Morning War.   The Quarians are being condemned for their actions right now, during the reaper invasion.

Earth and Palaven are being ravaged and the Quarians decide to pick a fight with the Geth.   They utterly refuse to even consider peace, despite 2 of 5 admirals advocating it.  

People try to blame Shepard for "choosing" the Geth over the Quarians.  But the fact remains, if the Quarians are wiped out, it is SOLELY because they repeatedly refused to end hostilities.  They hurl their "civilian" ships into combat with superior enemy forces rather than admit that peace might be possible.   And then they whine about how the geth are mean to them.

That's why they are condemned.

[tractrpl]

Federally wrote...

I don't understand the confusion or the people who think there is a plot hole here. As far as I'm concerned it all adds up.

The Quarians were shown to be ruthless towards those who sided with the Geth. That's a fair amount of casualties.

In a planet wide war, especially an arid planet with very limited farmland, famine and disease would kill just as many if not more then actual combat.

Then of course you have the Geth which are machines not restrained by morals or conscience that are fighting for their very survival. With Geth sympathizers dead or jailed the Geth would only see two groups of Quarians left, those actively fighting and those supporting the fighters. So the Geth decide to kill as many as they can as quickly as possible until the Quarians quit or are wiped out.

This isn't any different the human wars on Earth. In WWII the allies targeted civilians too, we dropped nukes on civilian targets not military/industry. The US just decided to kill as many Japanese as it took to get a cease fire. The obvious difference being the Quarians were not willing to give up until they were nearly extinct as a species.

It all adds up to me and since the Quarians started the whole conflict, annihilated any Quarian resistance, and refused to give up on the war genocide really is the only solution.

No more than 5% of Quarians being combatants at any time is why it doesn't make sense. Why kill ALL quarians when only SOME of them fought? And even if the Quarians are the initial aggressor, why feel SORRY for the Geth when they commited certifiable genocide?

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


Actually it is true.  It's basic ecology.  The number one cause of extinction is loss of habitat (for whatever reason).

-Polaris

Gosh. It's true for a species that's already vulnerable. Most species, even ones that are not considered endangered, have only a few hundred thousand total in number. We humans (and quarians) have numbers in the billions. Even a global catastrophe of nuclear proportions is not likely to wipe out 99% of all humans.

Actually under the right conditions, it's very easy to imagine a "J-Curve" population decline that would involve the wiping out of 99% of humans or even more.

-Polaris

[Tleining]

tractrpl wrote...

No, YOU are injecting human thoughts into the Geth. ONLY A HUMAN WOULD THINK "KILL THEM ALL". A machine would just eliminate the threat. Without a military, the Quarians would not be a threat. Eliminating the Quarian military would kill, at most, 5% of their population. Without a military, the Quarians would be no threat, and the Geth would be safe, no need to kill the rest of them. Furthermore, as machines, they would value efficiency. It takes much energy and time, with little gain, to go about killing every single Quarian breathing. On top of that, the Geth don't even need Rannoch! Once the Quarians were militarily defeated, the Geth WOULD HAVE LEFT. They ACTUALLY DID. But the narrative has them do it only after totally wiping the Quarians out. But WHY? They don't NEED Rannoch. They didn't NEED the star system. They could have LEFT WHENEVER. So why wait until AFTER they wipe them out. It all doesn't make logical sense, from a machine point of view. This is why the whol thing is a derp.

You, a Human, says that a Machine would think that way. So basically you are injecting Human thoughts into a Machine.
... now where did i put my aspirin?
In "War Games" a Machine basically says that War is stupid.

[HellbirdIV]

You don't have to go "door to door, house to house" to wipe out everyone in a city. The geth and quarians have very, very big bombs to use as a shortcut.

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

Federally wrote...

I don't understand the confusion or the people who think there is a plot hole here. As far as I'm concerned it all adds up.

The Quarians were shown to be ruthless towards those who sided with the Geth. That's a fair amount of casualties.

In a planet wide war, especially an arid planet with very limited farmland, famine and disease would kill just as many if not more then actual combat.

Then of course you have the Geth which are machines not restrained by morals or conscience that are fighting for their very survival. With Geth sympathizers dead or jailed the Geth would only see two groups of Quarians left, those actively fighting and those supporting the fighters. So the Geth decide to kill as many as they can as quickly as possible until the Quarians quit or are wiped out.

This isn't any different the human wars on Earth. In WWII the allies targeted civilians too, we dropped nukes on civilian targets not military/industry. The US just decided to kill as many Japanese as it took to get a cease fire. The obvious difference being the Quarians were not willing to give up until they were nearly extinct as a species.

It all adds up to me and since the Quarians started the whole conflict, annihilated any Quarian resistance, and refused to give up on the war genocide really is the only solution.

No more than 5% of Quarians being combatants at any time is why it doesn't make sense. Why kill ALL quarians when only SOME of them fought? And even if the Quarians are the initial aggressor, why feel SORRY for the Geth when they commited certifiable genocide?

Where are you getting this 5% number from?  Even people that Quarians don't classify as "combatants" are put in harms way and made (as EDI puts it) 'tactically significant'.  EDI points out that by putting guns on Liveships, the Geth will attack them whereas if they did not the Geth would ignore them as insignificant (and we KNOW that EDI talks to the Geth and probably has the best insight...other than Legion...of the Geth logic).  The fact is that by human standards pretty much 100% of the Quarian people act as combatants under human rules of war (and yes even under human rules of war if a 10year old kid shoots a soldier with a .22 rifle, he is a 'guerilla' and thus fair game.)

-Polaris

[Federally]

Of course killing Civilians makes logical sense. Killing people who support the leaders who started a war is a great way to convince them to end the war. It also reduces the labor force which seriously hurts a group's ability to wage war.

Killing civilians is only wrong in moral and ethical terms.

[count_4]

tractrpl wrote...
Furthermore, as machines, they would value efficiency. It takes much energy and time, with little gain, to go about killing every single Quarian breathing.

This is not directly Geth related. More on a general note:
I always wonder where this assumption comes from. Why do machines have to be different than organics? They are self-aware, they are sentient - why is it always assumed there is no emotion in the way they think and efficiency always the highest goal?

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

According to the available data they were.  Legion himself to Koris says it brilliantly:  "Every time the creators felt they had the smallest chance of victory, they have attacked us 100% o the time".  Given that apparent fact, the logical thing to do is eliminate the threat.  You are injecting emotion into this and the Geth (esp the early Geth) don't have that.


-Polaris

No, YOU are injecting human thoughts into the Geth. ONLY A HUMAN WOULD THINK "KILL THEM ALL". A machine would just eliminate the threat. Without a military, the Quarians would not be a threat. Eliminating the Quarian military would kill, at most, 5% of their population. Without a military, the Quarians would be no threat, and the Geth would be safe, no need to kill the rest of them. Furthermore, as machines, they would value efficiency. It takes much energy and time, with little gain, to go about killing every single Quarian breathing. On top of that, the Geth don't even need Rannoch! Once the Quarians were militarily defeated, the Geth WOULD HAVE LEFT. They ACTUALLY DID. But the narrative has them do it only after totally wiping the Quarians out. But WHY? They don't NEED Rannoch. They didn't NEED the star system. They could have LEFT WHENEVER. So why wait until AFTER they wipe them out. It all doesn't make logical sense, from a machine point of view. This is why the whol thing is a derp.

You are wrong.  You are ASSUMING that the Geth would be able to tell between a Quarian that is a threat and a Quarian that is not a threat, but the available evidence strongly suggests that once the militants took over, that the ALL the Quarians were potential threats.  You are injecuting human values into the logic of a machine race that is distinctly non-human and was programmed by non-humans.  Don't do that.

-Polaris

It's quite clear they're capable of telling the difference. Legion proved that in his memories. Furthermore, your justifying the complet genocide of an entire race just because "some" quarians fought. Even if all remained in the "pro war" faction, even a machine would be able to tell when someone is unable to fight back. I don't waste my time killing every ant, and neither should the Geth waste it's time killing every quarian, it's illogical.


THIS IS THE SAME STUPID STARBRAT LOGIC THAT SAYS THAT ALL SYNTHETICS INEVITABLY WIPE OUT ORGANICS. I DON'T BUY IT.

[Laurencio]

Vormaerin wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

So... if the quarians kill civilians, that`s bad. All right i got that. Now, if the geth are doing exactly the same it's good because the quarians did it first. This leads us to the conclusion quarians= evil and geth= good.

Did you go with the starchild to school? I'm sorry, but i just cannot follow this logic.
Yes, the quarians did horrible things but the geth are no saints either.

Well, I'd say you are having problems because you are imagining things.

No one has claimed that the geth are saints.   They are claiming that they aren't homicidal terminators like the OP posits.   They are also claiming that assuming the Quarians make the same codes of war as humans do is unsubstantiated.   And there's another subsection arguing that writer incompetence is not the only possible explanation for the data.

What we know is this:

Geth were accidentally made self aware.
Quarians split into pro Geth and anti Geth factions.
Anti Geth factions killed/imprisoned/intimidated the pro Geth Quarians.
Quarian militarists launched all out war on the Geth.
Quarians lost, badly.
Quarians fled and were not pursued.
300 years later, there are only 17 million quarians left.
During those 300 years, the Geth remained out of contact until a fraction joined Sovereign.
Quarians launched a new war after the Reaper invasion began.

The Geth most assuredly killed lots and lots of Quarians.  The Quarians most assuredly killed lots of Quarians.  Pestilence, starvation, and the like probably killed more Quarians than either the Geth or the Quarians did.

The Quarians are not being condemned for the Morning War.   The Quarians are being condemned for their actions right now, during the reaper invasion.

Earth and Palaven are being ravaged and the Quarians decide to pick a fight with the Geth.   They utterly refuse to even consider peace, despite 2 of 5 admirals advocating it.  

People try to blame Shepard for "choosing" the Geth over the Quarians.  But the fact remains, if the Quarians are wiped out, it is SOLELY because they repeatedly refused to end hostilities.  They hurl their "civilian" ships into combat with superior enemy forces rather than admit that peace might be possible.   And then they whine about how the geth are mean to them.

That's why they are condemned.

Do explain the logic as to how the Geth can be justified in wiping out a race whos military capbility doesn't even equal a fraction of their own?

[tractrpl]

count_4 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...
Furthermore, as machines, they would value efficiency. It takes much energy and time, with little gain, to go about killing every single Quarian breathing.

This is not directly Geth related. More on a general note:
I always wonder where this assumption comes from. Why do machines have to be different than organics? They are self-aware, they are sentient - why is it always assumed there is no emotion in the way they think and efficiency always the highest goal?

That would be a good question except that Legion makes it clear that they do mosly only think in terms of logic and efficiency.

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

count_4 wrote...

tractrpl wrote...
Furthermore, as machines, they would value efficiency. It takes much energy and time, with little gain, to go about killing every single Quarian breathing.

This is not directly Geth related. More on a general note:
I always wonder where this assumption comes from. Why do machines have to be different than organics? They are self-aware, they are sentient - why is it always assumed there is no emotion in the way they think and efficiency always the highest goal?

That would be a good question except that Legion makes it clear that they do mosly only think in terms of logic and efficiency.

Mostly. The fact is that the Geth are evolving and growing and developing an emotional sense (and it's well known that Geth have a strong spiritual sense) that they don't fully understand.  In fact one of the themes (up to the lame ending) is that Synethic and Organic life aren't actually all that different.

-Polaris

[curufinwe03]

IanPolaris wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

So... if the quarians kill civilians, that`s bad. All right i got that. Now, if the geth are doing exactly the same it's good because the quarians did it first. This leads us to the conclusion quarians= evil and geth= good.

If a civilian picks up a rifle and shoots at me and I am a soldier, I have EVERY right under the rules of war to kill him.  That civilian is now a combatant...and that is using human war usages.  The point I am making is that the Quarians don't seem to respect the civilian==non-combatant traditions that human cultures do and GIVEN that the Geth only have data from the Quarians, it is logical to think the Geth wouldn't either.

That is just logic.  It's neither good nor evil.

Great that you missed my point.
First, yes if a civilian takes a gun, he becomes a partisan and by that, a combatant. But does that mean that the soldier has the right to kill all combatans without allowing them to surrender AND annihilate their family and everyone else? There weren't billions of quarian combatans, that is just ridiculous. And i am bold enough to make the assumtion that a AI like a geth can tell you the difference between a quarian with a gun or an unarmed one that surrenders.
And if a geth kills a quarian it is netheir good nor evil? So the eradication of the quarians on the planet was fine, all right. Yes, the geth are totally innocent. I'll never understand how people can divide the world into black and white.
The geth commited horrible crimes, but so did the quarians.

[count_4]

Viquey wrote...
But my input: Geth probably had great difficulty with the concept of non-combatants. Even geth who don't actively fight contribute their processing power to those who do. They operated on consensuses, and wouldn't know that the Quarians who weren't actively shooting weren't hostile/contributing in some other way.

That's actually a great point.
The more Geth there are in the Consensus the better and faster they can act, the more 'intelligent' they are. If they assume the Quarians work the same way, it makes perfect sense to kill as much of them as possible as this would, in their line of thinking, reduce the Quarians' intellectual potential.

[Pride Demon]

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


Actually it is true.  It's basic ecology.  The number one cause of extinction is loss of habitat (for whatever reason).

-Polaris

Gosh. It's true for a species that's already vulnerable. Most species, even ones that are not considered endangered, have only a few hundred thousand total in number. We humans (and quarians) have numbers in the billions. Even a global catastrophe of nuclear proportions is not likely to wipe out 99% of all humans.

There's that. And there's also the fact that, like I said, if Rannoch was really that devastated billions died due to ambient failure then Rannoch would still be uninhabitable. Geth don't have magic, they can't make a devastated planet capable of sustaining life again in 300 years.

If that was the case retaking Rannoch would make as much sense as the drell starting a war to retake Rakhana, that is none at all.

Modifié par Pride Demon, 16 avril 2012 - 12:31 .

[Vormaerin]

Laurencio wrote...

Do explain the logic as to how the Geth can be justified in wiping out a race whos military capbility doesn't even equal a fraction of their own?

Do explain the the heck you are talking about?

What evidence is there that the Quarian military strength was a fraction of the Geth's?    Particularly in the Morning War, which was before the Geth started arming all hardware platforms?

Who exactly did the Geth wipe out?  They forcibly displaced the Quarians (with great loss of life), but they absolutely did NOT try to wipe them out.

[Federally]

If you have an entire group of people who are waging war against you what recourse do you have but to kill them all?

If the Geth made a mistake anywhere it was in allowing any Quarians to escape. All they did was regain strength and come back to fight again. But the Geth paid for that mistake when the Quarians destroyed the new server the Geth had on Rannoch and lost billions of programs.

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mostly. The fact is that the Geth are evolving and growing and developing an emotional sense (and it's well known that Geth have a strong spiritual sense) that they don't fully understand.  In fact one of the themes (up to the lame ending) is that Synethic and Organic life aren't actually all that different.

-Polaris

And all of their non-logical qualities point to the fact that they have a soul and a conscience, making it highly unlikely that they'd consider killing all organics just because they might POSSIBLY hold a weapon very much against those themes you just mentioned. 

[Myrmedus]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

First of all, the geth are logical creatures. They wouldn't do something that they don't need to do. Killing things that are no threat whatsoever is illogical.

According to the available data they were.  Legion himself to Koris says it brilliantly:  "Every time the creators felt they had the smallest chance of victory, they have attacked us 100% o the time".  Given that apparent fact, the logical thing to do is eliminate the threat.  You are injecting emotion into this and the Geth (esp the early Geth) don't have that.

This is obviously untrue because the Geth have had ample opportunities over the 300 years after the Morning War to completely wipe out the Quarian race yet have not. It has been well within their power to do so but they chose not to.

So obviously they do have some impression of the sanctity of life and Legion has made numerous statements over the course of the games that align with this notion.

[Shaedlance]

The Quarians designed the Geth. I am fairly certain they were capable of undertsanding what Geth were... programs. They still dictated the tone of the war and combat.

They targetted unarmed Quarian civilians.
They constantly harassed Geth outposts. Anytime they encountered Geth, they attacked 100% of the time with lethal force.
When the Geth attempted to halt combat and show no aggression, they attacked.

To put it plainly, the Quarians knew what kind of enemy they were engaging. They knew what they were capable. Do we know how badly the Quarians escalated the war to combat the Geth? It is hinted at, because in ME2 Legion and Tali both talk about the severe damage the Quarian worlds sustained.

In war there will always be civilian losses. There will always be destruction of infrastructure. There will be death due to starvation, disease, injuries sustained... When the Quarians stopped the conflict and fled, the Geth let them go. If the Geth had intended on wiping them out completely, it is obvious they were more than capable of doing it. We can assume the huge loss of Quarian life is due to the Quarians being to stupid, stubborn, prideful, arrogant to stop and consider peace... they killed themselves fighting an enemy they created.

Oh and the logic for their war... Geth would consider themselves slave labor and "might" rebel.... great justification there.

Modifié par Shaedlance, 16 avril 2012 - 12:33 .

[dbt-kenny]

War bring out the best and the worst in people. It is easy to apply this to the Geth as well.
Also intelligence does not give you morality or empathy. The Geth may have made the jump from a load of programs to full AI but it does not mean they will also have fully developed Morality or empathy at the same time.
It can also be said the Quarians where kill Geth babies as they are just a new intelligence. They stop hunting all Quarians at the 100 mile mark. Why is one reason they never full told us.

Modifié par dbt-kenny, 16 avril 2012 - 12:34 .