1392 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

It's quite clear they're capable of telling the difference. Legion proved that in his memories. Furthermore, your justifying the complet genocide of an entire race just because "some" quarians fought. Even if all remained in the "pro war" faction, even a machine would be able to tell when someone is unable to fight back. I don't waste my time killing every ant, and neither should the Geth waste it's time killing every quarian, it's illogical.

The Geth can tell some Quarians are their allies.  They also remember that they got slaughtered without mercy.  Legion specifically tells you that Shepard is the ONLY organic that contacted the Geth peacefully since the end of the morning war which is why that memory is so important to the Geth.

THIS IS THE SAME STUPID STARBRAT LOGIC THAT SAYS THAT ALL SYNTHETICS INEVITABLY WIPE OUT ORGANICS. I DON'T BUY IT.

It is not.  The Geth are in their infancy.  They don't know much except that the Quarians tried to kill them even at the cost of their own existance.  If the Geth wanted to commit genocide against the Quarians they could have.  They did not.  That is an incontravertable fact.

-Polaris

[tractrpl]

Vormaerin wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

Do explain the logic as to how the Geth can be justified in wiping out a race whos military capbility doesn't even equal a fraction of their own?

Do explain the the heck you are talking about?

What evidence is there that the Quarian military strength was a fraction of the Geth's?    Particularly in the Morning War, which was before the Geth started arming all hardware platforms?

Who exactly did the Geth wipe out?  They forcibly displaced the Quarians (with great loss of life), but they absolutely did NOT try to wipe them out.

Killing 99% of them underscores how much of an advantag thy had militarily. Here's the thing, if the Quarians hadn't left, then they WOULD have ben wiped out. The Geth made no indication that they wouldn't attack those unable to defend themselves. They killed indescriminately.

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

It's quite clear they're capable of telling the difference. Legion proved that in his memories. Furthermore, your justifying the complet genocide of an entire race just because "some" quarians fought. Even if all remained in the "pro war" faction, even a machine would be able to tell when someone is unable to fight back. I don't waste my time killing every ant, and neither should the Geth waste it's time killing every quarian, it's illogical.

The Geth can tell some Quarians are their allies.  They also remember that they got slaughtered without mercy.  Legion specifically tells you that Shepard is the ONLY organic that contacted the Geth peacefully since the end of the morning war which is why that memory is so important to the Geth.

THIS IS THE SAME STUPID STARBRAT LOGIC THAT SAYS THAT ALL SYNTHETICS INEVITABLY WIPE OUT ORGANICS. I DON'T BUY IT.

It is not.  The Geth are in their infancy.  They don't know much except that the Quarians tried to kill them even at the cost of their own existance.  If the Geth wanted to commit genocide against the Quarians they could have.  They did not.  That is an incontravertable fact.

-Polaris

Hitler commited genocide and he only killed 30% of all Jews.

[tractrpl]

It's insane to believe that every single living quarian was acting as a soldier fighting the geth. That only makes sense in sci fi, not real life, which I guess is the point.

[Pride Demon]

Vormaerin wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

Do explain the logic as to how the Geth can be justified in wiping out a race whos military capbility doesn't even equal a fraction of their own?

Do explain the the heck you are talking about?

What evidence is there that the Quarian military strength was a fraction of the Geth's?    Particularly in the Morning War, which was before the Geth started arming all hardware platforms?

Who exactly did the Geth wipe out?  They forcibly displaced the Quarians (with great loss of life), but they absolutely did NOT try to wipe them out.

Many platforms were already armed, since they were used for war, losing those weakened the quarian military potential most likely...

Also about the not wiping the quarians out thing, here's what I wrote a few posts back...

Not out of pity, though. Their goal was freedom and they aknowledged
they had achieved that. They considered following, but then simply
noticed they didn't have enough computational power to properly predict
the outcome of destroying an entire race.
They only wanted to avoid
creating an unknown quantity by totally eradicating the quarians
following into other species' territories, they didn't do it out of
moral superiority...

Modifié par Pride Demon, 16 avril 2012 - 12:37 .

[Myrmedus]

Laurencio wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

So... if the quarians kill civilians, that`s bad. All right i got that. Now, if the geth are doing exactly the same it's good because the quarians did it first. This leads us to the conclusion quarians= evil and geth= good.

Did you go with the starchild to school? I'm sorry, but i just cannot follow this logic.
Yes, the quarians did horrible things but the geth are no saints either.

Well, I'd say you are having problems because you are imagining things.

No one has claimed that the geth are saints.   They are claiming that they aren't homicidal terminators like the OP posits.   They are also claiming that assuming the Quarians make the same codes of war as humans do is unsubstantiated.   And there's another subsection arguing that writer incompetence is not the only possible explanation for the data.

What we know is this:

Geth were accidentally made self aware.
Quarians split into pro Geth and anti Geth factions.
Anti Geth factions killed/imprisoned/intimidated the pro Geth Quarians.
Quarian militarists launched all out war on the Geth.
Quarians lost, badly.
Quarians fled and were not pursued.
300 years later, there are only 17 million quarians left.
During those 300 years, the Geth remained out of contact until a fraction joined Sovereign.
Quarians launched a new war after the Reaper invasion began.

The Geth most assuredly killed lots and lots of Quarians.  The Quarians most assuredly killed lots of Quarians.  Pestilence, starvation, and the like probably killed more Quarians than either the Geth or the Quarians did.

The Quarians are not being condemned for the Morning War.   The Quarians are being condemned for their actions right now, during the reaper invasion.

Earth and Palaven are being ravaged and the Quarians decide to pick a fight with the Geth.   They utterly refuse to even consider peace, despite 2 of 5 admirals advocating it.  

People try to blame Shepard for "choosing" the Geth over the Quarians.  But the fact remains, if the Quarians are wiped out, it is SOLELY because they repeatedly refused to end hostilities.  They hurl their "civilian" ships into combat with superior enemy forces rather than admit that peace might be possible.   And then they whine about how the geth are mean to them.

That's why they are condemned.

Do explain the logic as to how the Geth can be justified in wiping out a race whos military capbility doesn't even equal a fraction of their own?

If you keep punching someone who is significantly stronger than you they will eventually punch you back - hard.

Even if the Geth are the more powerful faction, every single time Quarians attack them without provocation some Geth (programs) die. And the Quarians just keep doing it over and over and over. Do you just let this aggressive race keep killing your people after God knows how many chances you've given them?

Eventually, a line has to be drawn.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 16 avril 2012 - 12:38 .

[huntsman2310]

Even going by the OP's assumption that Geth are genocidal maniacs, they have a different perception of morals and ideas then us.

To them a baby would be put in the same grouping as adults.

Its just cold logic.

[Federally]

I don't even know what exactly tractpl is arguing anymore. I think we're being trolled

[IanPolaris]

Myrmedus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

First of all, the geth are logical creatures. They wouldn't do something that they don't need to do. Killing things that are no threat whatsoever is illogical.

According to the available data they were.  Legion himself to Koris says it brilliantly:  "Every time the creators felt they had the smallest chance of victory, they have attacked us 100% o the time".  Given that apparent fact, the logical thing to do is eliminate the threat.  You are injecting emotion into this and the Geth (esp the early Geth) don't have that.

This is obviously untrue because the Geth have had ample opportunities over the 300 years after the Morning War to completely wipe out the Quarian race yet have not. It has been well within their power to do so but they chose not to.

This supports my point rather than opposes it.  The Creators have attacked the Geth 100% of the time when they thought that victory was possible. The reverse is not true.  As for why the Geth did not elimate the threat entirely, there was ANOTHER offsetting consideration.  The Geth felt that the uncertainty of eliminating an entire sentient race had too many implications to calculate properly and the negative uncertainy outweighed the magnitude of the remaining threat....and I point out that this FORBEARANCE nearly got the Geth killed (and does in some ME3 games).

So obviously they do have some impression of the sanctity of life and Legion has made numerous statements over the course of the games that align with this notion.

The Geth have developed a sanctity for life that's pretty embryonic over the course of three centuries.  The Geth let the Quarians go because the Quarians were no longer an immediate threat because they were no longer proxminate...and destroying them anyway seemed unwise and illogical.  This is non human reasoning.  Don't treat it as such.

-Polaris

[Saul Iscariot]

Irrespective of what was done in the war, and sorrry if this has already been said said, but any vessel that entered Geth Space was attacked and destroyed, Quarian or not. For a race that supposedly were nurturung the Quarain homeworld awaiting their eventual return this is preposterous.

Coupled with the fact that the consensus absolved themselves of any action involving the Heretics be choosing to remain on the sidelines you have a bunch of psycho toasters. They were warlike and fanatical.

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

It's quite clear they're capable of telling the difference. Legion proved that in his memories. Furthermore, your justifying the complet genocide of an entire race just because "some" quarians fought. Even if all remained in the "pro war" faction, even a machine would be able to tell when someone is unable to fight back. I don't waste my time killing every ant, and neither should the Geth waste it's time killing every quarian, it's illogical.

The Geth can tell some Quarians are their allies.  They also remember that they got slaughtered without mercy.  Legion specifically tells you that Shepard is the ONLY organic that contacted the Geth peacefully since the end of the morning war which is why that memory is so important to the Geth.

THIS IS THE SAME STUPID STARBRAT LOGIC THAT SAYS THAT ALL SYNTHETICS INEVITABLY WIPE OUT ORGANICS. I DON'T BUY IT.

It is not.  The Geth are in their infancy.  They don't know much except that the Quarians tried to kill them even at the cost of their own existance.  If the Geth wanted to commit genocide against the Quarians they could have.  They did not.  That is an incontravertable fact.

-Polaris

Hitler commited genocide and he only killed 30% of all Jews.

Do everyone a favor and look up the UN definition of genocide and get back with us.  If you do you will find that the Quarians not the Geth are guilty of that crime.

-Polaris

[T-0pel]

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

It's quite clear they're capable of telling the difference. Legion proved that in his memories. Furthermore, your justifying the complet genocide of an entire race just because "some" quarians fought. Even if all remained in the "pro war" faction, even a machine would be able to tell when someone is unable to fight back. I don't waste my time killing every ant, and neither should the Geth waste it's time killing every quarian, it's illogical.

The Geth can tell some Quarians are their allies.  They also remember that they got slaughtered without mercy.  Legion specifically tells you that Shepard is the ONLY organic that contacted the Geth peacefully since the end of the morning war which is why that memory is so important to the Geth.

THIS IS THE SAME STUPID STARBRAT LOGIC THAT SAYS THAT ALL SYNTHETICS INEVITABLY WIPE OUT ORGANICS. I DON'T BUY IT.

It is not.  The Geth are in their infancy.  They don't know much except that the Quarians tried to kill them even at the cost of their own existance.  If the Geth wanted to commit genocide against the Quarians they could have.  They did not.  That is an incontravertable fact.

-Polaris

Hitler commited genocide and he only killed 30% of all Jews.

That is because they did not live only in Europe. In Europe the percentage was more than doubled.

"Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds perished."

And that does not take into account people that emigrated and that was a lot.

[count_4]

tractrpl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

It's quite clear they're capable of telling the difference. Legion proved that in his memories. Furthermore, your justifying the complet genocide of an entire race just because "some" quarians fought. Even if all remained in the "pro war" faction, even a machine would be able to tell when someone is unable to fight back. I don't waste my time killing every ant, and neither should the Geth waste it's time killing every quarian, it's illogical.

The Geth can tell some Quarians are their allies.  They also remember that they got slaughtered without mercy.  Legion specifically tells you that Shepard is the ONLY organic that contacted the Geth peacefully since the end of the morning war which is why that memory is so important to the Geth.

THIS IS THE SAME STUPID STARBRAT LOGIC THAT SAYS THAT ALL SYNTHETICS INEVITABLY WIPE OUT ORGANICS. I DON'T BUY IT.

It is not.  The Geth are in their infancy.  They don't know much except that the Quarians tried to kill them even at the cost of their own existance.  If the Geth wanted to commit genocide against the Quarians they could have.  They did not.  That is an incontravertable fact.

-Polaris

Hitler commited genocide and he only killed 30% of all Jews.

Because he was stopped in time and didn't have the power to get to every Jew on the planet. The Geth however do have the power and possibility to wipe out every single Quarian.

[Vormaerin]

tractrpl wrote...


Killing 99% of them underscores how much of an advantag thy had militarily. Here's the thing, if the Quarians hadn't left, then they WOULD have ben wiped out. The Geth made no indication that they wouldn't attack those unable to defend themselves. They killed indescriminately.

Well, other than the fact that all evidence shows the Geth were willing to stop hostilities at any point the Quarians did.

There is never a point where we see the Quarians offer the Geth anything but extermination after the initial "large portion" of pro Geth quarians are killed or subjugated.

Could the Quarians have surrendered in the Morning War?  Unknown, though it seems likely based on other facts in evidence.

[IanPolaris]

tractrpl wrote...

It's insane to believe that every single living quarian was acting as a soldier fighting the geth. That only makes sense in sci fi, not real life, which I guess is the point.

The Quarians exhibit exactly this sort of behavior, however.  We see it firsthand in ME3.  Given that this was the source of data on how to fight war to the newly sentient Geth, well......

-Polaris

[Myrmedus]

IanPolaris wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

First of all, the geth are logical creatures. They wouldn't do something that they don't need to do. Killing things that are no threat whatsoever is illogical.

According to the available data they were.  Legion himself to Koris says it brilliantly:  "Every time the creators felt they had the smallest chance of victory, they have attacked us 100% o the time".  Given that apparent fact, the logical thing to do is eliminate the threat.  You are injecting emotion into this and the Geth (esp the early Geth) don't have that.

This is obviously untrue because the Geth have had ample opportunities over the 300 years after the Morning War to completely wipe out the Quarian race yet have not. It has been well within their power to do so but they chose not to.

This supports my point rather than opposes it.  The Creators have attacked the Geth 100% of the time when they thought that victory was possible. The reverse is not true.  As for why the Geth did not elimate the threat entirely, there was ANOTHER offsetting consideration.  The Geth felt that the uncertainty of eliminating an entire sentient race had too many implications to calculate properly and the negative uncertainy outweighed the magnitude of the remaining threat....and I point out that this FORBEARANCE nearly got the Geth killed (and does in some ME3 games).

I know, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with your argument overall just that statement, and felt you were actually strengthening your opponent's arguments with it xD.

So obviously they do have some impression of the sanctity of life and Legion has made numerous statements over the course of the games that align with this notion.

The Geth have developed a sanctity for life that's pretty embryonic over the course of three centuries.  The Geth let the Quarians go because the Quarians were no longer an immediate threat because they were no longer proxminate...and destroying them anyway seemed unwise and illogical.  This is non human reasoning.  Don't treat it as such.

-Polaris

This is conjecture.

We don't know how the Geth have developed over those 300 years, very little information is given about it even with the maximum info obtained from the ME games and books.

[GnusmasTHX]

If they had to escape at all, it seems that if they were open to accepting surrender, the geth were at least not advertising it.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 16 avril 2012 - 12:42 .

[Laurencio]

If the Geth are truly run by cold logic and doesn't have any emotional reactions, then it would make no sense to wipe out ALL Quarians. The Quarians aren't strong enough or military capeable enough to truly do harm to the Geth race. All they can do is be a bit of a nuisance, and even then they can be effectively held off with a very small Geth fleet.

If the Geth/Quarian war show anything it is that if the Geth's so called "logic" evolves into risk assessment they will go to war against the galactic community. After all, they supposedly wiped out civilian Quarians because they were a "threat", a non confirmed threat at that. Even when having vastly more military capability and force they responded to the "threat" by a strategy of annhiliation.

Now considering the Turian's mentality towards colonization, the Salarian's history of interference, particulary with the Krogan, Human's aggression towards Reapers, and Asari superior genetic capability, all of this could be viewed, in a risk assessment strategy as threats towards the Geth's survival. They are currently only thinking short term, but if they evolve their thinking to consider long term situations, and lack the appropriate empathetical responses, they could well launch a preemptive attack towards one of these races. If they think even further forwards they will realize that any aggression towards the Geth will result in the galactic community at large launching an attack on them. Making the only "reasonable" conclusion, that safety can only be achieved when they are alone in the galaxy.

Resuling in the Geth going to war against the rest of the Galaxy.

Starchild wins.

Modifié par Laurencio, 16 avril 2012 - 12:43 .

[tractrpl]

IanPolaris wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

It's insane to believe that every single living quarian was acting as a soldier fighting the geth. That only makes sense in sci fi, not real life, which I guess is the point.

The Quarians exhibit exactly this sort of behavior, however.  We see it firsthand in ME3.  Given that this was the source of data on how to fight war to the newly sentient Geth, well......

-Polaris

Being put into harms way because your stuck on a ship cause you have no choice is different than hiding inside a cave somewhere hoping they don't come and murder you for no reason.

[DJBare]

Okay, lets put it in human terms.

Quarians: We created a baby, kill it!!

[GnusmasTHX]

Laurencio wrote...

If the Geth are truly run by cold logic and doesn't have any emotional reactions, then it would make no sense to wipe out ALL Quarians. The Quarians aren't strong enough or military capeable enough to truly do harm to the Geth race. All they can do is be a bit of a nuisance, and even then they can be effectively held off with a very small Geth fleet.

If the Geth/Quarian war show anything it is that if the Geth's so called "logic" evolves into risk assessment they will go to war against the galactic community. After all, they supposedly wiped out civilian Quarians because they were a "threat", a non confirmed threat at that. Even when having vastly more military capability and force they responded to the "threat" by a strategy of annhiliation.

Now considering the Turian's mentality towards colonization, the Salarian's history of interference, particulary with the Krogan, Human's aggression towards Reapers, and Asari superior genetic capability, all of this could be viewed, in a risk assessment strategy as threats towards the Geth's survival. They are currently only thinking short term, but if they evolve their thinking to consider long term situations, and lack the appropriate empathetical responses, they could well launch a preemptive attack towards one of these races. If they think even further forwards they will realize that any aggression towards the Geth will result in the galactic community at large launching an attack on them. Making the only "reasonable" conclusion, that safety can only be achieved when they are alone in the galaxy.

Resuling in the Geth going to war against the rest of the Galaxy.

Starchild wins.

Even if you save them, the StarChild wins.

Legion turning a 180 and embracing Reaper technology and more over uploading it to his entire race?

Geth bonding with quarian suits?

Zha'til all over again. And we know how that ended.

Also I very much doubt the Morning War was a complete "first" for the geth, given that they were designed for war already.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 16 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[Laurencio]

Vormaerin wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

Do explain the logic as to how the Geth can be justified in wiping out a race whos military capbility doesn't even equal a fraction of their own?

Do explain the the heck you are talking about?

What evidence is there that the Quarian military strength was a fraction of the Geth's? Particularly in the Morning War, which was before the Geth started arming all hardware platforms?

Who exactly did the Geth wipe out? They forcibly displaced the Quarians (with great loss of life), but they absolutely did NOT try to wipe them out.

If you read the quote I was quoting it mentioned that the Quarians were fools to attack a superior military force without considering the possibility of peace. If they were that superior, that the Geth were so superior that peace was the only logical option, then the Geth are so much stronger than the Quarians that war is unnecessary for them.

[IanPolaris]

However, looking at Legion, it's clear that the Geth are evolving some sort of ethical/emotional sense (why else would Legion wear Shep's old N7 armor and play Shepard in cosplay?) The developement of both EDI and Legion/Geth show that the starchild is wrong and is one big reason the ending just fails.

-Polaris

[tractrpl]

DJBare wrote...

Okay, lets put it in human terms.

Quarians: We created a baby, kill it!!

Geth: one person tried to kill a baby. Let's kill every person that exists.  Makes sense?

[TobiTobsen]

If you try to exterminate a species and fail, be prepared that they might try to exterminate you instead.

Don't start a fight you can't win.