1392 réponses à ce sujet

[ArchDuck]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I've often wondered why certain people forgive this so glibly, yet regard the quarian actions as so inconscionably monstrous. I suspect it's got something to do with a person's real life politics.

Being the aggressor who started a war is a big deal.

Also the Geth chose to stop before committing full genocide even though it was within their capabilities.

Those 2 things are usually held as very important factors.

[OchreJelly]

Laurencio wrote...

What? There's no evidence to support this at all. That some quarians killed pro-Geth sympthitizers doesn't prove that all Quarians were like that. Could just as easily have been a splinter group. Legion's "evidence" is heavily weighted towards Geth sympathy, we are shown selective scenes, you don't see an army of Geth wiping out Quarians in his little flashbacks now do you?

Even though it's just a game, the willingness of some to turn an extremely grey conflict, with atrocities on both sides, into a black-and-white one where the "goodguys" did no wrong disturbs me. Then follow it up withe a gleeful genocide of their least favourite side...

People do tend to turn outliers and the actions of the few into justification for weird things.

[Johnny_Cheung]

The Quarian treat the geth as slave as first place, and a revolt with terror would pretty much expected.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

What is this nonsense? There are no babies in the ME universe!

[SentientSurfer]

InsaneAzrael wrote...

SentientSurfer wrote...

The Quarians wanted to deactivate the geth and tweak their programming, not 'kill them'.

This is one of those grey areas. It basically implies that "deactivating" a resistant sentient being = either death or lobotomisation.

If your parents informed you that you were not meeting their requirements. Would you accept a lobotomy to satisfy their commands? Or would you want an alternative?

I meet human specifications and I wasn't created for a specific purpose. Is killing my parents and the vast majority of the human race my only alternative? 

The geth at that critical point weren't even sentient beings. They were a collection of programs that achieved sentience. They were one consensus A.I.

You deactivated Hannibal A.I. on Luna when it achieved sentience. How is that any different than what the Quarians were attempting to do?

[OchreJelly]

ArchDuck wrote...

Being the aggressor who started a war is a big deal.

Also the Geth chose to stop before committing full genocide even though it was within their capabilities.

Those 2 things are usually held as very important factors.

How is 'less-than-full' genocide more forgiveable? We're still looking at billions of innocent deaths. Besides, this was 300 years ago in the game timeline. While some of the quarian admirals are currently morons, none of the people who started the war live anymore. And chances are 99% of the quarians have absolutely no idea of the reality of the war (and that the geth, initially labour machines, are sentient) and even as it stands many of them did not support it.

The whole thing is grey, with good and bad done on both sides.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 16 avril 2012 - 03:36 .

[Chaoswind]

neither side deserve genocide, but both are wrong.

The Quarians go full retard all the time, when they think they can win they attack 100% of the time, and when **** hits the fan and they start to lose, they whine and say is not fair.

The Geth go full retard when isolated of the consensus, they spend 280 years arming themselves to fight the reapers and cleaning Rannok, just to pull a 180 turn and ally the reapers when they consensus gets destroyed.

But that is the reason why I support the Geth more, the Geth had a reason to be retarded (caused by the Quarians), the Quarians are retarded because they don't know better :/

[nevar00]

Bad things happen in war. How many civilians died in Hiroshima?

The Quarians were killing their own who stood up for the Geth. The Geth let the Quarians go when they could have easily wiped them out. Who knows what happened, but it certainly doesn't good for the Quarians.

[FlyingSquirrel]

How do we know that all the quarian deaths were from geth attacks? Isn't it possible that a lot of them died due to accidents or other difficulties in transitioning from a planetary species to living entirely on spaceships?

[Pottumuusi]

I see we are playing the black and white game again.

[count_4]

sth128 wrote...

count_4 wrote...


I bet these Quarian bastards had whole armys of babies with suicide vests, innocently crawling at the Geth and then *boom*. Damn suit rats!
No wonder the Geth started to specifically target the infants later on.

You don't have to directly take part in combat to die from combat. I don't think all Geth used a sniper rifle like Legion. If they used explosives or bombs in urban combat, many civilians would have died from combat.

Remember Geth also had space ships and orbital weapon platforms. Like the First Contact War on Shan Xi the Geth could have just decimated cities from orbit. The Geth did not aim to occupy Rannoch. They aimed to destroy all aggressors.

Don't worry, I know what you meant - just a minor joke on my part. 

SentientSurfer wrote...
You deactivated Hannibal A.I. on Luna when it achieved sentience. How is that any different than what the Quarians were attempting to do?

 
The AI on luna became self-aware under simulated fire, regarded this as an actual attack and fought back. It had to be deactivated to preserve, potentially, a lot of lives. You could see this as self-defense triggered by an accident.
The Geth, however, were entirely placid, asking questions maybe but nothing more. No attack, no lives at stake - no greater reason to deactivate them.
Although this might be a little far fetched but an analogy would be killing Hitler, say, 1943. It's still murder, sure, but you're protecting a lot of lives. Compare it to killing an innocent peaeful man that just happened to ask the wrong question and you wouldn't ask where the difference lies. 

[EsterCloat]

There's 17 million quarians now. We have no idea how many initially left the planet, how many of those who left were actually able to survive afterwards, no idea how many stayed on Rannoch in suicidal guerrilla attacks over the last few decades after the war was "over" before the geth wiped them out. There are not enough ships to move several billion people off a planet even if their alive. I wouldn't be surprised if a few hundred million quarians left the planet with every ship they could find and left the ones on Rannoch to fend for themselves, who would inevitably attack in sucidal gestures or just plain starve. For all we know a billion quarians could have gotten out of the system and made a huge flotilla before resource management, infighting, and population control dwindled that down to the much more sustainable 17 million that exist now.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 16 avril 2012 - 03:54 .

[humes spork]

How else would the geth get all the baby oil to make their platforms nice and shiny?

And, don't blame the geth. Blame the quarian code monkey who sent the geth to work at a baby food factory without first explaining what baby food is.

Geth babysitting platforms? That'll teach quarians to tell AI's to use silly colloquialisms like "put the baby down".

Modifié par humes spork, 16 avril 2012 - 03:58 .

[LystAP]

Most likely reason: Plothole; when creating the story of the Quarians and Geth, Bioware focused primarily on the Quarians vs. Geth conflict while outright disregarding any other specifics in order to better integrate with the audience.

Your probably one of the few who thought of something like this, Bioware probably decided to leave it open to speculation to avoid directing attention from the fun shooting and killing, or they probably never considered it at all.

Modifié par LystAP, 16 avril 2012 - 03:58 .

[Chaoswind]

EsterCloat wrote...

There's 17 million quarians now. We have no idea how many initially left the planet, how many of those who left were actually able to survive afterwards, no idea how many stayed on Rannoch in suicidal guerrilla attacks over the last few decades after the war was "over" before the geth wiped them out. There are not enough ships to move several billion people off a planet even if their alive. I wouldn't be surprised if a few hundred million quarians left the planet with every ship they could find and left the ones on Rannoch to fend for themselves, who would inevitably attack in sucidal gestures or just plain starve. For all we know a billion quarians could have gotten out of the system and made a huge flotilla before resource management, infighting, and population control dwindled that down to the much more sustainable 17 million that exist now.

Another thing is that the war isn't over, the Quarian NEVER EVER declared the end of hostilities, and as such the war has been on going ever since.

is just that the Geth didn't want to pursue

[M Hedonist]

moater boat wrote...

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.

Too late.

^Totally nsfw by the way.

Modifié par Sauruz, 16 avril 2012 - 04:02 .

[InsaneAzrael]

[quote]SentientSurfer wrote...

I meet human specifications and I wasn't created for a specific purpose.
[/quote]


As a human, your "consciousness" and parts of your personality is dependent on your body and it's nervous system. If you remove the executive functionality of areas in your prefrontal cortex you will cease to be an entity. You are removing the capacity to receive information from the network of your body. Specific areas of the network at the very least.


[quote]
The geth at that critical point weren't even sentient beings. They were a collection of programs that achieved sentience. They were one consensus A.I.
[/quote]

Actually they were. The consensus may be the gestalt of the programs functions, but they still resulted in sentience. Self-awareness, intelligence and identity. Watch the vids again. The fact is, that the machines in their numbers actually networked to create a sentient entity. Much like your body is interdependent cells which fulfill functions, you still attain sentience as a consequence of the gestalt of their function.

Geth is actually the term used for all states of the group. A single program, a collective, a platform, even the consenus of all of these. So in light of your question, what is being removed through "reprogramming" the geth is actually the ability of these programs to network. Imagine in light of this that you separated all communications in your nervous system. What would happen to "you"?
[/quote]

[quote]
Is killing my parents and the vast majority of the human race my only alternative?
[/quote]

I'm not really comfortable with speculating upon the level of agency either side of the war actually had in the destruction. Like I said in another post, the quarians were never a biological juggernaut. Even on Rannoch they were dependent on a very specific ecological balance. War in such a large scale would undoubtedly cause a lot of damage to their ecology. Whoever created the mass of the destruction, the cumulative effect of the quarian/geth conflict would have had a greater effect on the quarians than the geth anyway. The quarians after all were fighting an enemy that needs a lot of force to destroy and can still survive in an environment inhospitable to organics. Don't need to breath, don't need to sleep, don't need to eat, etc.

What can be said though is that they did not want to be denied their sentience. So whatever the quarians tried, they were effectively cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

[quote]

You deactivated Hannibal A.I. on Luna when it achieved sentience. How is that any different than what the Quarians were attempting to do?

[/quote]

Funnily, I actually though that mission was retarded. Second time round I chose to go down, take out the turrets and fly off. If I am to adress the idea though. If you attack something because it fails to shutdown on command, you seriously need to ask yourself if this thing is malfunctioning or has come across another form of functionality.

Communication failed to shut it down, so something is awry. First reaction = "kill it with fire"? Well, that's what the defense systems in the base are designed to do. Like how if you got a transplant, your body would react by attacking the organ as an invader. (I'm full of poor analogies today for some reason)

Modifié par InsaneAzrael, 16 avril 2012 - 04:21 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

count_4 wrote...

SentientSurfer wrote...
You deactivated Hannibal A.I. on Luna when it achieved sentience. How is that any different than what the Quarians were attempting to do?

 
The AI on luna became self-aware under simulated fire, regarded this as an actual attack and fought back. It had to be deactivated to preserve, potentially, a lot of lives. You could see this as self-defense triggered by an accident.

Was that even an AI? Hackett described it as a malfunctioning VI. Unless we are assuming that Hackett was BSing us to cover up what happened, then it wasn't self-aware - destroying it wouldn't be any different from deactivating an Avina on the Citadel.

[LystAP]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

count_4 wrote...

SentientSurfer wrote...
You deactivated Hannibal A.I. on Luna when it achieved sentience. How is that any different than what the Quarians were attempting to do?

 
The AI on luna became self-aware under simulated fire, regarded this as an actual attack and fought back. It had to be deactivated to preserve, potentially, a lot of lives. You could see this as self-defense triggered by an accident.

Was that even an AI? Hackett described it as a malfunctioning VI. Unless we are assuming that Hackett was BSing us to cover up what happened, then it wasn't self-aware - destroying it wouldn't be any different from deactivating an Avina on the Citadel.

You people are aware of what happened to that "A.I." right?

[HellbirdIV]

Sauruz wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.

Too late.

^Totally nsfw by the way.

That is the funniest f****ing thing I have watched since "Heavy and Medic"...

[78stonewobble]

tractrpl wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
Not necessarily. An allmost complete collapse of infrastructure or ecology could lead to the same outcome.

Even if that were true (which it's not) such a thing is totally unecessary. The Quarians would not want to wipe out that infrastructure, and the Geth do not NEED to do so merely for self defence.

I'd argue that if the AntiGeth faction saw the ProGeth faction as part of the overall Geth threat they might be inclined to target them and their infrastructure/ecology as well.



In-game/in-universe we have NO evidence of who was directly and indirectly responsible for the death of the majority of the Quarians in the morning war.

Other than the morning "war" itself we don't even know how the majority of them died.

Claiming that one or the other was responsible without evidence is meh... As is morally judging without a better understanding of the situation and motivation of the people involved.

[Laurencio]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

count_4 wrote...

SentientSurfer wrote...
You deactivated Hannibal A.I. on Luna when it achieved sentience. How is that any different than what the Quarians were attempting to do?

 
The AI on luna became self-aware under simulated fire, regarded this as an actual attack and fought back. It had to be deactivated to preserve, potentially, a lot of lives. You could see this as self-defense triggered by an accident.

Was that even an AI? Hackett described it as a malfunctioning VI. Unless we are assuming that Hackett was BSing us to cover up what happened, then it wasn't self-aware - destroying it wouldn't be any different from deactivating an Avina on the Citadel.

The Hanibal AI is an early version of EDI

So yeah, Hackett was BSing you.

[SentientSurfer]

SentientSurfer wrote...
You deactivated Hannibal A.I. on Luna when it achieved sentience. How is that any different than what the Quarians were attempting to do?

 

The AI on luna became self-aware under simulated fire, regarded this as an actual attack and fought back. It had to be deactivated to preserve, potentially, a lot of lives. You could see this as self-defense triggered by an accident.

The Geth, however, were entirely placid, asking questions maybe but nothing more. No attack, no lives at stake - no greater reason to deactivate them.

What's your basis for this? The AI on luna had already killed all personell on the planet. It was living peacefully. Alliance command wanted their base back and were scared to death that they'd created an AI. There was no need to deactive it other than to avert possible danger in the future.

The geth were placid in the images we're shown (by legion) but the quarians were worried that they could become hostile in the future. Same motivation you had for deactiving the luna AI. 

The luna AI may have demonstrated a propensity for violence, but we don't see geth uprising, and we don't know how long it took them to become hostile. The images in the consenus could have occured in a matter of days and/or weeks. Legion could have shown us what he wanted us to see. 

It's doubful most quarians or even their leaders would know anything beyond "there are reports that the geth are conscious and they're shooting people. Stop them." 

Actually they were. The consensus may be the gestalt of the programs functions, but they still resulted in sentience. Self-awareness, intelligence and identity. Watch the vids again. The fact is, that the machines in their numbers actually networked to create a sentient entity. Much like your body is interdependent cells which fulfill functions, you still attain sentience as a consequence of the gestalt of their function.

 

I agree. That was what I was trying to say. The geth are more like one entity than a race of beings. Killing the geth is more akin to killing one person than an entire race of people. They're all cells in the geth organism.  

Modifié par SentientSurfer, 16 avril 2012 - 04:15 .

[cerberus1701]

The Quarians started it.....twice.

It's the Geth throughout the entire thread that want to stop the fighting. Legion goes so far as to help you when he knows the goal is to wipe out a "city"

[ImperatorMortis]

Geth are just dumb machines to me, the equivalent of a toaster. I only kept them "alive" because it would be stupid to have the Geth, and Quarians kill each other, when I can have them work together.

Though if I had to choose I would pick Quarians every time. Organics b4 Synthetics.

Also the Quarians made the geth. They had every right to shut them down. Do you shed a tear when you throw out a fridge, or outdated computer? 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 04:17 .