1392 réponses à ce sujet

[Serp86]

cerberus1701 wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Man I wish Admiral Xen was a romance option.. She would have been an awesome option for my manshep. Way better than Liara.

Serp86 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Geth are just dumb machines to me, the equivalent of a toaster. I only kept them "alive" because it would be stupid to have the Geth, and Quarians kill each other, when I can have them work together.

Though if I had to choose I would pick Quarians every time. Organics b4 Synthetics.

Also the Quarians made the geth. They had every right to shut them down. Do you shed a tear when you throw out a fridge, or outdated computer? 

Right on... 

50 % of humans are dumber than average... I don't cry when they get themselves killed either...

This. I don't hate humans, but if I'm not gonna cry just because some dude on the other side of the country gets killed you can bet your ass I won't give a **** if some synthetic gets torn apart. 

cerberus1701 wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Geth are just dumb machines to me, the equivalent of a toaster. I only kept them "alive" because it would be stupid to have the Geth, and Quarians kill each other, when I can have them work together.

Though if I had to choose I would pick Quarians every time. Organics b4 Synthetics.

Also the Quarians made the geth. They had every right to shut them down. Do you shed a tear when you throw out a fridge, or outdated computer? 

I might if I had the slightest inkling that my fridge was conscious.

 

Right. Just keep telling yourself that. Sure you might be able to have some nice conversations with your fridge, but in the end its just an appliance to you, and if it stops doing its job(keeping your food cold), you would toss that hunk of metal in the trash where it belongs. 

I'm all for equality, and rights, but for organic rights. Aliens, and humans, but for robots? **** that ****.  Hell I value a bloody Batarians life over a geths. 

Not if it were "alive." That's what someone like you doeesn't grasp and never will. A concious AI is not a toaster. It's not JUST a machine.

It's life. It's just different life. No better or worse. No more worthy of existence than an organic, but no LESS, either.

Organic doesn't equal "better" by default.

Not but harder to 1-1 replace . Its that simple.  I destroy a machine i can rebuild it if i have the know how. With organic life it ain't that simple.   Now if i can chose to not kill anyone hell yes i won't but if i have to thats not even a question .  I destroy the machine and afterwards look if i can repair it.

 

This. Machines are expendable, organic life? Not so much. Also if you guys love the Geth soooo much. Just keep Quarians alive, they can make as many psuedo life forms as you want. 

Thats another difference. Organics can make synthetics, but can synthetics make organics(from scratch)? 

With the proper materials, ummm.....yes.

Same as with an organic creating a synthetic. With the right materials.

Try again.

And thos material would be what exactly ? As long as nothing exists to exactly 1-1 replace an organic lifeform exactly the same its will be less valueable. It doesn't so it is less valueable.

Modifié par Serp86, 16 avril 2012 - 05:08 .

[Virtual winter]

I have to wonder howmany here would immediately give their toasters equal rights if they demanded this, instead of trying to smash it.

[InsaneAzrael]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Thats another difference. Organics can make synthetics, but can synthetics make organics(from scratch)? 

Is this a question of feasibility or seniority?
Organics design synthetics based on observing physical nature and instrumentalising it.
Could a synthetic feasibly observe the organic physical nature and intstrumentalise it.. Yeah, it's feasible.

Organics took time to get to the stage of knowing enough about physical principles to instrument synthetics. With the capabilities of synthetics being based on this knowledge it is plausible that they could create organic life. If they were orientated to do so.

They could make the components. Put them together. If it creates a sentient organic. Then bam, there goes your argument. All you seem to be arguing is can they do it right away.

[78stonewobble]

Virtual winter wrote...

I have to wonder howmany here would immediately give their toasters equal rights if they demanded this, instead of trying to smash it.

I don't know... People smash other people for not agreeing with them as well...

What do we call those people?

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 16 avril 2012 - 05:14 .

[Baronesa]

Virtual winter wrote...

I have to wonder howmany here would immediately give their toasters equal rights if they demanded this, instead of trying to smash it.

If my toaster, or maybe a computer, or a robot like... i dont know ASIMO... etc would develop sentience?

Yes I would grat it equal rights...

HOWEVER the toaster analogy makes no sense because there is no posibility for  a simple toaster to develop an AI, now if you go for something that could develop a true working AI? yes, a different type of lifeform and deserving of equal rights and equal protection, same accountability for actions as well.

[Serp86]

InsaneAzrael wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Thats another difference. Organics can make synthetics, but can synthetics make organics(from scratch)? 

Is this a question of feasibility or seniority?
Organics design synthetics based on observing physical nature and instrumentalising it.
Could a synthetic feasibly observe the organic physical nature and intstrumentalise it.. Yeah, it's feasible.

Organics took time to get to the stage of knowing enough about physical principles to instrument synthetics. With the capabilities of synthetics being based on this knowledge it is plausible that they could create organic life. If they were orientated to do so.

They could make the components. Put them together. If it creates a sentient organic. Then bam, there goes your argument. All you seem to be arguing is can they do it right away.

And before they actually do or did so this is a moot point.  Facts are facts and not well maybe they COULD.

[cerberus1701]

Serp86 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Man I wish Admiral Xen was a romance option.. She would have been an awesome option for my manshep. Way better than Liara.

Serp86 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Geth are just dumb machines to me, the equivalent of a toaster. I only kept them "alive" because it would be stupid to have the Geth, and Quarians kill each other, when I can have them work together.

Though if I had to choose I would pick Quarians every time. Organics b4 Synthetics.

Also the Quarians made the geth. They had every right to shut them down. Do you shed a tear when you throw out a fridge, or outdated computer? 

Right on... 

50 % of humans are dumber than average... I don't cry when they get themselves killed either...

This. I don't hate humans, but if I'm not gonna cry just because some dude on the other side of the country gets killed you can bet your ass I won't give a **** if some synthetic gets torn apart. 

cerberus1701 wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Geth are just dumb machines to me, the equivalent of a toaster. I only kept them "alive" because it would be stupid to have the Geth, and Quarians kill each other, when I can have them work together.

Though if I had to choose I would pick Quarians every time. Organics b4 Synthetics.

Also the Quarians made the geth. They had every right to shut them down. Do you shed a tear when you throw out a fridge, or outdated computer? 

I might if I had the slightest inkling that my fridge was conscious.

 

Right. Just keep telling yourself that. Sure you might be able to have some nice conversations with your fridge, but in the end its just an appliance to you, and if it stops doing its job(keeping your food cold), you would toss that hunk of metal in the trash where it belongs. 

I'm all for equality, and rights, but for organic rights. Aliens, and humans, but for robots? **** that ****.  Hell I value a bloody Batarians life over a geths. 

Not if it were "alive." That's what someone like you doeesn't grasp and never will. A concious AI is not a toaster. It's not JUST a machine.

It's life. It's just different life. No better or worse. No more worthy of existence than an organic, but no LESS, either.

Organic doesn't equal "better" by default.

Not but harder to 1-1 replace . Its that simple.  I destroy a machine i can rebuild it if i have the know how. With organic life it ain't that simple.   Now if i can chose to not kill anyone hell yes i won't but if i have to thats not even a question .  I destroy the machine and afterwards look if i can repair it.

 

This. Machines are expendable, organic life? Not so much. Also if you guys love the Geth soooo much. Just keep Quarians alive, they can make as many psuedo life forms as you want. 

Thats another difference. Organics can make synthetics, but can synthetics make organics(from scratch)? 

With the proper materials, ummm.....yes.

Same as with an organic creating a synthetic. With the right materials.

Try again.

And thos material would be what exactly ? As long as nothing exists to exactly 1-1 replace an organic lifeform exactly the same its will be less valueable. It doesn't so it is less valueable.

Really?

I have to explain to you where babies come from.

Or what sperm and egg banks are?

And even in the here and now  we're about 15 years away from an artificial womb.

Give a society those and they can make kids by the warehouse full.

Next?

[InsaneAzrael]

Serp86 wrote...

And thos material would be what exactly ? As long as nothing exists to exactly 1-1 replace an organic lifeform exactly the same its will be less valueable. It doesn't so it is less valueable.

Who exactly is making the value judgement here?

And before they actually do or did so this is a moot point.  Facts are facts and not well maybe they COULD.

What facts? Your entire argument is based on conjecture and speculation over a fictional scenario. This entire discussion is about "could they".

Modifié par InsaneAzrael, 16 avril 2012 - 05:18 .

[blooregard]

The fact that every time I've seen a Quarian on the battlefield they die it doesn't surprise me that so many of them died in the morning war.


There are only two exceptions: Reegor and Tali...and Reegor ended up dying anyway.

[OchreJelly]

Baronesa wrote...

*Snip*

Als, considering the actions of the Quarian leadership against their own civilians BEFORE the all out war started, just for protecting their geth units, it is very reasonable to asume that they had no qualms on killing those siding with the Geth.

Of course, that much is stated by Legion as well. But I see no reason why the quarians would bomb half their population into oblivion. Legion states that eventually the quarian resistance faded and majority opinion shifted (note, opinion doesn't mean they took up arms to fight other quarians), and then the Morning War went into full swing.

So it seems very reasonable to assume:

• That the geth are the source of the vast majority of quarian deaths.
• But a lot of pro-geth quarians were killed.
• The surviving quarians were further reduced in numbers due to sterile ship life reactions.

The geth restored Rannoch, yes, but I think that is partially out of story convenience ("Yay, we got Rannoch back, but it's a wasteland" would have been a real downer) and partially because the geth eventually felt regret. Still, they did destroy all ships that entered their space, and did not proactively attempt to enter diplomacy (to be fair, neither side did.)

My point is, neither side was the good-guy here; both have horrible actions in the past and present regardless of circumstances. All the better for peace to be the main goal.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 16 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[ImperatorMortis]

cerberus1701 wrote...

With the proper materials, ummm.....yes.

Same as with an organic creating a synthetic. With the right materials.

Try again.

So how would you go about creating Organic life from scratch? You can't just shove a pile of meat together, and say there! He's alive! No. Just no. 

Machines are expendable you can destroy them, and create them good as new, you can even create one from scratch. An organic? HAHAHA!! 


No. 


How the hell would you go about creating organs from scratch, creating blood vessels from nothing, creating a functioning brain from scratch, how would you go about giving whatever you created the ability to produce? How would you give a creature the ability to create sperm, to create eggs, how would you repliclate the complexity of an organics nervous system from scratch? How would your creation be able to heal itself? How would its stomach work? Would it know how to eat? Would it feel? Would it have emotions? How would you make it possible for this creature to evolve? 

Would it even be able to move?!

No. Unless you can answer these questions I'm just going to conclude that you're full of ****, are blinded by your morals, and don't know what your talking about.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 05:22 .

[cerberus1701]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

With the proper materials, ummm.....yes.

Same as with an organic creating a synthetic. With the right materials.

Try again.

So how would you go about creating Organic life from scratch? You can't just shove a pile of meat together, and say there! He's alive! No. Just no. 

Machines are expendable you can destroy them, and create them good as new, you can even create one from scratch. An organic? HAHAHA!! 


No. 


How the hell would you go about creating organs from scratch, creating blood vessels from nothing, creating a functioning brain from scratch, how would you go about giving whatever you created the ability to produce? How would you give a creature the ability to create sperm, to create eggs, how would you repliclate the complexity of an organics nervous system from scratch? How would your creation be able to heal itself? How would its stomach work? Would it know how to eat? Would it feel? Would it have emotions? 

Would it even be able to move?!

No. Unless you can answer these questions I'm just going to conclude that you're full of ****, are blinded by your morals, and don't know what your talking about.

LOL.

I love that you don't even know that you're beating your own point to death.

[Saul Iscariot]

The simple fact is that you should be wary of supporting either side as none are as innocent as they claim. The few clips that you see in ME3 are designed to make you realise the Geth aren't completely at fault. But what you know of them afterwards shows them to be a deceitful, self serving, murderous race that can not be trusted.

[Serp86]

[quote]cerberus1701 wrote...

[quote]Serp86 wrote...

[quote]cerberus1701 wrote...

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...

Man I wish Admiral Xen was a romance option.. She would have been an awesome option for my manshep. Way better than Liara.

[quote]Serp86 wrote...

[quote]cerberus1701 wrote...

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...

[quote]78stonewobble wrote...

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...

Geth are just dumb machines to me, the equivalent of a toaster. I only kept them "alive" because it would be stupid to have the Geth, and Quarians kill each other, when I can have them work together.

Though if I had to choose I would pick Quarians every time. Organics b4 Synthetics.

Also the Quarians made the geth. They had every right to shut them down. Do you shed a tear when you throw out a fridge, or outdated computer? 
[/quote]

Right on... 

50 % of humans are dumber than average... I don't cry when they get themselves killed either... [/quote]

This. I don't hate humans, but if I'm not gonna cry just because some dude on the other side of the country gets killed you can bet your ass I won't give a **** if some synthetic gets torn apart. 

[quote]cerberus1701 wrote...

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...

Geth are just dumb machines to me, the equivalent of a toaster. I only kept them "alive" because it would be stupid to have the Geth, and Quarians kill each other, when I can have them work together.

Though if I had to choose I would pick Quarians every time. Organics b4 Synthetics.

Also the Quarians made the geth. They had every right to shut them down. Do you shed a tear when you throw out a fridge, or outdated computer? 
[/quote]

I might if I had the slightest inkling that my fridge was conscious.
[/quote] 

Right. Just keep telling yourself that. Sure you might be able to have some nice conversations with your fridge, but in the end its just an appliance to you, and if it stops doing its job(keeping your food cold), you would toss that hunk of metal in the trash where it belongs. 

I'm all for equality, and rights, but for organic rights. Aliens, and humans, but for robots? **** that ****.  Hell I value a bloody Batarians life over a geths. 

[/quote]

Not if it were "alive." That's what someone like you doeesn't grasp and never will. A concious AI is not a toaster. It's not JUST a machine.

It's life. It's just different life. No better or worse. No more worthy of existence than an organic, but no LESS, either.

Organic doesn't equal "better" by default.
[/quote]

Not but harder to 1-1 replace . Its that simple.  I destroy a machine i can rebuild it if i have the know how. With organic life it ain't that simple.   Now if i can chose to not kill anyone hell yes i won't but if i have to thats not even a question .  I destroy the machine and afterwards look if i can repair it.

[/quote] 

This. Machines are expendable, organic life? Not so much. Also if you guys love the Geth soooo much. Just keep Quarians alive, they can make as many psuedo life forms as you want. 

Thats another difference. Organics can make synthetics, but can synthetics make organics(from scratch)? 
[/quote]


With the proper materials, ummm.....yes.

Same as with an organic creating a synthetic. With the right materials.

Try again.[/quote]

And thos material would be what exactly ? As long as nothing exists to exactly 1-1 replace an organic lifeform exactly the same its will be less valueable. It doesn't so it is less valueable.

[/quote]


Really?

I have to explain to you where babies come from.

Or what sperm and egg banks are?

And even in the here and now  we're about 15 years away from an artificial womb.

Give a society those and they can make kids by the warehouse full.

Next?[/quote]

But those kids are not going to be 1-1 the same . I carbon copy a program and upload it into every machine and it will be exactly the same personality wise at the moment it was started.   Thats the difference .   I copy the files the nanosecond before i destroy the AI i will have the same information in a new body than it had in the other one.

It may develop differently from there on but at that exact point they will be 100% the same .

And i'm not going to argue on that with you thats just fact . I work in Computer Science so my knowledge from real life will influence my opinion here.

[ImperatorMortis]

cerberus1701 wrote...

LOL.

I love that you don't even know that you're beating your own point to death.

Explain. You said that a synthetic "with the right materials" could create an organic, the same way an organic can create a synthetic. I'm asking you how the hell is this possible? 

Also I saw that "you know where babies come from" post. That doesn't answer the question. 

How would a robot. Possibly figure out, or even put in to practice the creation of an organic species from scratch? Also like that other poster said a synthetic will be 100% like its "brethren" there will be no deviances, no real differences. They won't be unique they will all be fundemantally the same.

Why? Because they are machines! Hell even a child can learn how to put together a robot, sometimes even without instructions. Organic life is ridiculously complex, and has conciderate value compared to a synthetics life. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 05:31 .

[Axialbloom]

1. You have no idea how many Quarians there were to begin with.
2. The Quarians fought each other over Geth rights, so you have no idea how many of their own people they killed.
3. You have no idea what the age make-up of those who fled was.

So be quiet, little troll.

[Vromrig]

You suck at arguing when your defense is "We can infer based on these things that seem potentially likely".

That's not even circumstantial evidence.

[mauro2222]

moater boat wrote...

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...
No I remember that, it was in that lame geth propaganda mission. Only that was an adult, so your argument is invalid.

Only an adult?, there ya go kiddies, a lesson for you, it's okay to kill adults but not babies or children, lest we forget those adults probably had children of their own, but I'm sure those children will be forgiving that their own kind killed their parents.

If you think killing an innocent baby is the same as killing an enemy in war, you're pretty much a horrible human being. Sorry.

It's still killing, or you think you're excused because the guy is your "enemy".

[78stonewobble]

So... What gives any human a supposed right to self determination and existance?

A specific level of intelligence?
A specific genetic make up?
A specific chemical make up?

Personally I think it highly likely that we can make artificial humans before we can make artificial electrical/chemical/optical intelligences. What rights do we give these people?

[Virtual winter]

Baronesa wrote...

Virtual winter wrote...

I have to wonder howmany here would immediately give their toasters equal rights if they demanded this, instead of trying to smash it.

If my toaster, or maybe a computer, or a robot like... i dont know ASIMO... etc would develop sentience?

Yes I would grat it equal rights...

HOWEVER the toaster analogy makes no sense because there is no posibility for  a simple toaster to develop an AI, now if you go for something that could develop a true working AI? yes, a different type of lifeform and deserving of equal rights and equal protection, same accountability for actions as well.

Didn't the Quarians think this as well, at first? That there was no possiblity for a simple single geth to develop an AI? They were wrong then, it only happened through their network connectivity.

Okay, the toaster-comment was a bit ludicrous, but what about personal computers? What if they suddenly gotten sentient and wanted equal rights? All of a sudden there are perhaps an extra billion? three billion? Or more? inhabitants on earth whom we know nothing about for certain (allegiance, mindset, etc.) because their developing wasn't planned, wasn't worked out in a lab. They couldn't be switched off anymore.

Suddenly they are here. Everywhere.

You can't tell me that a LOT of humans wouldn't try to destroy them, even governments would outlaw them, and once the first kills a human (even in self-defense) the public opinion would be completely against them, calling them terrorists and more.

As Shep we can both see this conflict from the outside, and from several hundred years later (when a war doesn't seem as gruesome anymore, it's just history), but I think it's a lot different if you lived this.

Now I like the geth okay - Legion showed me that they can learn from their mistakes, but I can very, very much see where the quarians came from in this.

[Saul Iscariot]

Vromrig wrote...

You suck at arguing when your defense is "We can infer based on these things that seem potentially likely".

That's not even circumstantial evidence.

It is how aircraft crash investigations work.

[Vromrig]

It is how aircraft crash investigations work

Yeah no, those are conclusions based on verifiable facts and putting the only logical pieces together.

"I don't really have a number, but let's just assume, then hold the Geth to it" is about as bad as it gets.

That's like trying to conclude that someone's dead was a homicide on the grounds that "We didn't do any tests, but we're pretty sure he should've lived to be 50 or something".

[acidic-ph0]

What makes organic life so special anyway?

We are just a combination of chemistry and electricity that has become self aware. Really an organic lifeform is just a machine of different construction. In fact the only part of any of us that matters is the 2 pound lump of grey protein stuck in our skull that has the ability to question why it exists.

Being self-aware, curious, capable of reason, and having the capacity to evolve.These are the things that make something truly alive and sentient... None of these qualities require organic material at all.

As for the war and casualties... Well war is Hell. You think wiping out 99% of the Quarians is awful? Well you're absolutely right, that was incredibly disgusting, but that's what happens in a war for one species' survival or the others. The morning war escalated so far that the Quarians were willing to fight to every last man woman and child, and the Geth were going to continue to defend themselves if necessary. If the Quarians just surrendered I'm sure the Geth would have allowed them to live as it's been made apparent over and over again that the Geth are not inherently hostile towards organics at all.

Still don't like the Geth? You don't have to. But don't be a hypocrite either... just look at the founding of the United States of America... We wiped out nearly 99% of the native American population for MUCH more incredibly foolish reasons. The fact that we even have a word for wiping out an entire race of people (genocide) is disgusting enough to show that we aren't saintly, we aren't perfect. If anything life as a whole is chaotic and destructive.

But one thing that is important to note is that focusing on old hatreds only leads to more hatred. Life moves on, it evolves, adapts, and with that comes the potential for great and beautiful things. You can either accept that the Geth and Quarians can live in peace for a brighter future, or continue a grudge that has been lasting for 300 years.

Modifié par acidic-ph0, 16 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[InsaneAzrael]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

With the proper materials, ummm.....yes.

Same as with an organic creating a synthetic. With the right materials.

Try again.

So how would you go about creating Organic life from scratch? You can't just shove a pile of meat together, and say there! He's alive! No. Just no. 

Machines are expendable you can destroy them, and create them good as new, you can even create one from scratch. An organic? HAHAHA!! 


No. 


How the hell would you go about creating organs from scratch, creating blood vessels from nothing, creating a functioning brain from scratch, how would you go about giving whatever you created the ability to produce? How would you give a creature the ability to create sperm, to create eggs, how would you repliclate the complexity of an organics nervous system from scratch? How would your creation be able to heal itself? How would its stomach work? Would it know how to eat? Would it feel? Would it have emotions? 

Would it even be able to move?!

No. Unless you can answer these questions I'm just going to conclude that you're full of ****, are blinded by your morals, and don't know what your talking about.

Dude, you need to calm down. This is a place for speculation and conjecture. None of the material needs to have a present basis in reality to be verified to you.

How can these things work. Well in conjecture land. If technology and understanding advances sufficiently in the future to engineer an intricate mechanism capable of sentient thought and analysis. Such a sentient synthetic (given to scientific observation and creative analytical thought) may feasibly be capable of solving the problems you described. In much the same manner that its creation required similar problems to be solved.

[SovereignWillReturn]

tractrpl wrote...

moater boat wrote...

How do I know they killed quarian babies? After the Morning war there were only 17 million quarians left alive. I don't know how many there were to begin with, but it stands to reason that there were at least several billion. That means that only a fraction of a percent of all the Quarians survived. The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.

Less than a fraction. 10 billion quarians were alive prior to the morning war. about 0.17% survived. Think about that. Less than 20% of 1% survived. They were exterminated. The only way to get those kind of kill numbers is to go house by house, block by block, cave by cave, and hunt down and kill every walking quarian. Such a kill rate would bring a tear to Harby's eye.

Did you see Han'Gerrel's charge at the Geth if you supported the Geth with no peace? The Qurians recklessly threw themselves into enemy fire. I bet that's what they did in the war too, They even killed their own people to get at the Geth.

The Geth had a right as sentient beings to defend themselves, that's all they did, play defence. it was Qurian racism and stubborness that made them dig their own graves.