1392 réponses à ce sujet

[ImperatorMortis]

InsaneAzrael wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

With the proper materials, ummm.....yes.

Same as with an organic creating a synthetic. With the right materials.

Try again.

So how would you go about creating Organic life from scratch? You can't just shove a pile of meat together, and say there! He's alive! No. Just no. 

Machines are expendable you can destroy them, and create them good as new, you can even create one from scratch. An organic? HAHAHA!! 


No. 


How the hell would you go about creating organs from scratch, creating blood vessels from nothing, creating a functioning brain from scratch, how would you go about giving whatever you created the ability to produce? How would you give a creature the ability to create sperm, to create eggs, how would you repliclate the complexity of an organics nervous system from scratch? How would your creation be able to heal itself? How would its stomach work? Would it know how to eat? Would it feel? Would it have emotions? 

Would it even be able to move?!

No. Unless you can answer these questions I'm just going to conclude that you're full of ****, are blinded by your morals, and don't know what your talking about.

Dude, you need to calm down. This is a place for speculation and conjecture. None of the material needs to have a present basis in reality to be verified to you.

How can these things work. Well in conjecture land. If technology and understanding advances sufficiently in the future to engineer an intricate mechanism capable of sentient thought and analysis. Such a sentient synthetic (given to scientific observation and creative analytical thought) may feasibly be capable of solving the problems you described. In much the same manner that its creation required similar problems to be solved.

I am calm. There were hardly any exclamations on my post. 
Saying that maybe a synthetic would be able to figure how to create an actual living organic from nothing isn't an actual answer. Cerberus said "with the proper materials um... Yes", and I question his notion.

The burden of proof is on him. Questions like this can't be answered with maybes. 

[ArchDuck]

An unique intelligence is unique. It doesn't matter if it is of a synthetic or organic source.

[ImperatorMortis]

Oops double post.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 05:39 .

[Rob_Nix]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

With the proper materials, ummm.....yes.

Same as with an organic creating a synthetic. With the right materials.

Try again.

So how would you go about creating Organic life from scratch? You can't just shove a pile of meat together, and say there! He's alive! No. Just no. 

Machines are expendable you can destroy them, and create them good as new, you can even create one from scratch. An organic? HAHAHA!! 


No. 


How the hell would you go about creating organs from scratch, creating blood vessels from nothing, creating a functioning brain from scratch, how would you go about giving whatever you created the ability to produce? How would you give a creature the ability to create sperm, to create eggs, how would you repliclate the complexity of an organics nervous system from scratch? How would your creation be able to heal itself? How would its stomach work? Would it know how to eat? Would it feel? Would it have emotions? How would you make it possible for this creature to evolve? 

Would it even be able to move?!

No. Unless you can answer these questions I'm just going to conclude that you're full of ****, are blinded by your morals, and don't know what your talking about.

Create, alter the organism's DNA.  We're all just chemical coding.  Calm down.

I really don't see a big difference between organic life and synthetic.  Just different materials.

[Rob_Nix]

LOL, someone else told you to calm down, too.

[ImperatorMortis]

Rob_Nix wrote...

Create, alter the organism's DNA.  We're all just chemical coding.  Calm down.

I really don't see a big difference between organic life and synthetic.  Just different materials.

Alteration isn't the same as creation though. Creating something is significantly more difficult than just changing something. 

Also do you want me to list the differences between organics, and machines? 

Rob_Nix wrote...

LOL, someone else told you to calm down, too.

 

Man whatever. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 05:44 .

[Saul Iscariot]

Vromrig wrote

Yeah no, those are conclusions based on verifiable facts and putting the only logical pieces together.

"I don't really have a number, but let's just assume, then hold the Geth to it" is about as bad as it gets.

That's like trying to conclude that someone's dead was a homicide on the grounds that "We didn't do any tests, but we're pretty sure he should've lived to be 50 or something".

That isn't what I was getting at. The majority of aircraft crash investigations are based on deducing the most likely outcome from an inference of fact, not necessarily a verifiable fact. They are, as you quite rightly say, the most logical conclusions when put together.
And the only thing we can say about the Geth, putting together what we know, is that they were an untrustworthy race who were not above genocide and manipulating others. Much like the Quarians and other races, but they were never on our side.

[Rob_Nix]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

InsaneAzrael wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

With the proper materials, ummm.....yes.

Same as with an organic creating a synthetic. With the right materials.

Try again.

So how would you go about creating Organic life from scratch? You can't just shove a pile of meat together, and say there! He's alive! No. Just no. 

Machines are expendable you can destroy them, and create them good as new, you can even create one from scratch. An organic? HAHAHA!! 


No. 


How the hell would you go about creating organs from scratch, creating blood vessels from nothing, creating a functioning brain from scratch, how would you go about giving whatever you created the ability to produce? How would you give a creature the ability to create sperm, to create eggs, how would you repliclate the complexity of an organics nervous system from scratch? How would your creation be able to heal itself? How would its stomach work? Would it know how to eat? Would it feel? Would it have emotions? 

Would it even be able to move?!

No. Unless you can answer these questions I'm just going to conclude that you're full of ****, are blinded by your morals, and don't know what your talking about.

Dude, you need to calm down. This is a place for speculation and conjecture. None of the material needs to have a present basis in reality to be verified to you.

How can these things work. Well in conjecture land. If technology and understanding advances sufficiently in the future to engineer an intricate mechanism capable of sentient thought and analysis. Such a sentient synthetic (given to scientific observation and creative analytical thought) may feasibly be capable of solving the problems you described. In much the same manner that its creation required similar problems to be solved.

I am calm. There were hardly any exclamations on my post. 
Saying that maybe a synthetic would be able to figure how to create an actual living organic from nothing isn't an actual answer. Cerberus said "with the proper materials um... Yes", and I question his notion.

The burden of proof is on him. Questions like this can't be answered with maybes. 

Reseach abiogenesis.

It's the study of life from nonlife.

It's still in it's infancy, but they have made some remarkable discoveries and have actually been able to create organic molecules from scratch.

[InsaneAzrael]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I am calm. There were hardly any exclamations on my post. 
Saying that maybe a synthetic would be able to figure how to create an actual living organic from nothing isn't an actual answer. Cerberus said "with the proper materials um... Yes", and I question his notion.

The burden of proof is on him. Questions like this can't be answered with maybes. 

Ah okay.. See when you start saying he is full of **** and all that jazz, that ain't very calm. He does not necessarily have to prove anything based on conjecture. Expecting that is about as absurd as you having to falsify his assertions with real answers (not the questions you posed).

It's just speculation. So aye, I repeat. Chill man.

[Vromrig]

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Vromrig wrote

Yeah no, those are conclusions based on verifiable facts and putting the only logical pieces together.

"I don't really have a number, but let's just assume, then hold the Geth to it" is about as bad as it gets.

That's like trying to conclude that someone's dead was a homicide on the grounds that "We didn't do any tests, but we're pretty sure he should've lived to be 50 or something".

That isn't what I was getting at. The majority of aircraft crash investigations are based on deducing the most likely outcome from an inference of fact, not necessarily a verifiable fact. They are, as you quite rightly say, the most logical conclusions when put together.
And the only thing we can say about the Geth, putting together what we know, is that they were an untrustworthy race who were not above genocide and manipulating others. Much like the Quarians and other races, but they were never on our side.

Argument: "I don't know how many Quarians there were.  Probably billions.  Now there's millions.  Therefore the Geth must have waged a Holocaust".

That's just a bad argument no matter how you slice it.

[Rob_Nix]

"Complex biological molecules and protocells
Sidney W. Fox also experimented with abiogenesis and the primordial soup theory. In one of his experiments, he allowed amino acids to dry out as if puddled in a warm, dry spot in prebiotic conditions. He found that, as they dried, the amino acids formed long, often cross-linked, thread-like, submicroscopic molecules now named "proteinoids".
In another experiment using a similar method to set suitable conditions for life to form, Fox collected volcanic material from a cinder cone in Hawaii. He discovered that the temperature was over 100 degrees Celsius just four inches beneath the surface of the cinder cone, and suggested that this might have been the environment in which life was created—molecules could have formed and then been washed through the loose volcanic ash and into the sea. He placed lumps of lava over amino acids derived from methane, ammonia and water, sterilized all materials, and baked the lava over the amino acids for a few hours in a glass oven. A brown, sticky substance formed over the surface and when the lava was drenched in sterilized water a thick, brown liquid leached out. It turned out that the amino acids had combined to form proteinoids, and the proteinoids had combined to form small, cell-like spheres. Fox called these "microspheres", a name that subsequently was displaced by the more informative term protobionts. His protobionts were not cells, although they formed clumps and chains reminiscent of cyanobacteria. They contained no functional nucleic acids, but split asexually and formed within double membranes that had some attributes suggestive of cell membranes. Professor Colin S. Pittendrigh stated in December 1967 that "laboratories will be creating a living cell within ten years" a remark that reflected the typical contemporary levels of innocence of the complexity of cell structures.[23]"

http://en.wikipedia...._and_protocells

[ImperatorMortis]

InsaneAzrael wrote...
Ah okay.. See when you start saying he is full of **** and all that jazz, that ain't very calm. He does not necessarily have to prove anything based on conjecture. Expecting that is about as absurd as you having to falsify his assertions with real answers (not the questions you posed).

It's just speculation. So aye, I repeat. Chill man.

I actually curse alot in casual conversation, but OK. But in my opinion he did sound like he was full of **** when he said that. I just called him out on it. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 05:46 .

[DevilBeast]

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

[Jayleia]

moater boat wrote...

I1 Trust wrote...

We can't really discuss this topic because we don't know any of the details behind the Geth War.

We know the numbers, and that is enough to know that SOMEONE killed millions of quarian babies. I don't think it was the quarians...

We know there was a war, and we know that billions are dead.  The dead may be a direct consequence of the war, or it may be an indirect consequence.  Or it could have a completely separate cause.

We don't know about the Geth's strategy during the Morning War.  We do know that when the Quarians stopped attacking, the Geth did not pursue.

We don't know about the Quarian's strategy during the Morning War.  We do know that the Quarians initiated hostilities, and were willing to kill their own civilians in order to kill Geth that were not violent at the time.

We don't know what the weapons used were.  Could Geth have gone on a genocidal spree?  Possible, the only example they had experience with was the Quarians trying to exterminate them (if they did, why let the Quarians escape?).  Could the Quarians have used CBR weapons on groups that were not actively killing the Geth, or maybe chemicals designed to cause the polymers in Geth construction to decay, that also had long-term toxic effects (possible, and given the aggressiveness of the Quarian civilian commander, I'd guess highly likely).  Or maybe even a C-fractional kinetic strike.

Perhaps during the initial time in the Migrant Fleet, they didn't adapt well.  Maybe there were millions left on the planet, and rather than stay in enclaves and let the Geth go about their business, they detonated nukes in their own enclaves just to kill Geth near them.

We know very little of the Morning War, and even less about the period immediately after their exodus.  But given dialogue and cutscenes from AFTER the war, it seems unlikely that Geth would intentionally commit genocide.

[Virtual winter]

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

I must've missed that history lesson at school where they explained that slaves were built by slave-owners. 

[Baronesa]

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

Had the same thought.. or how it was argued for a long time if women had souls or not... or how it was said for a while that the native population of the new world had no souls, so they had to be conquered, etc...

[ImperatorMortis]

Rob_Nix wrote...

Reseach abiogenesis.

It's the study of life from nonlife.

It's still in it's infancy, but they have made some remarkable discoveries and have actually been able to create organic molecules from scratch.

I already know of this. But the crazy thing is.. Organics didn't have to be built. A species can evolve from a few cells, but what about a synthetic? Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

I didn't know slave masters created their slaves from scratch.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 05:56 .

[ImperatorMortis]

DP again. Bleh. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 05:53 .

[Vromrig]

Had the same thought.. or how it was argued for a long time if women had souls or not... or how it was said for a while that the native population of the new world had no souls, so they had to be conquered, etc...

It's getting creepy when you compare women's suffrage and human rights to whether or not a gear should be given the same treatment.

[Saul Iscariot]

Argument: "I don't know how many Quarians there were.  Probably billions.  Now there's millions.  Therefore the Geth must have waged a Holocaust".

I'll give you that much. But the logical conclusion is that it was the intent of the Geth to wipe out the Quarians had they not left Rannoch.

[ImperatorMortis]

It has a face! It must have feelings you guys! 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 05:57 .

[Vromrig]

I'll give you that much. But the logical conclusion is that it was the intent of the Geth to wipe out the Quarians had they not left Rannoch.

I'd argue that that's debatable, but it's not something I want to dive into in this thread.

I was merely pointing out how utterly without substance the OP's post is.

[mauro2222]

Let's see...

Quarians are willing to kill themselves just to destroy the geth, and that's funny.

"We just want our homeworld back", looks like the main objective is to destroy the geth out of stupid vendetta and the recovering of the homeworld is just a secondary, no wait, tertiary... still, not close enough, ah yes, side effect of destroying the geth.

During the Morning war, the geth were babies, a baby would do anything to protect himself, even from his mother. They recently achieved sentience, and they are facing attacks without reason, of course they're going to defend themselves, they ceased attacks when the threat left. They were incapable of knowing limits, like a baby, they just wanted the threat gone.

Quarians didn't stop, so the geth didn't stop either, the conflict scalated. The Quarians ignored communication, so the geth only had a single option, erase the problem.

After the war, more geth were made, thus allowing them to think faster, better and make complex thinking, then they realized. The quarians had 600 years to think...

Modifié par mauro2222, 16 avril 2012 - 06:00 .

[Rob_Nix]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

Reseach abiogenesis.

It's the study of life from nonlife.

It's still in it's infancy, but they have made some remarkable discoveries and have actually been able to create organic molecules from scratch.

I already know of this. But the crazy thing is.. Organics didn't have to be built. A species can evolve from a few cells, but what about a synthetic? Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

I didn't know slave masters created their slaves from scratch.

Okay, but I thought the original question was "could synthetics build organics from scratch".   Not "can synthetic life arise naturally".

[ImperatorMortis]

Rob_Nix wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

Reseach abiogenesis.

It's the study of life from nonlife.

It's still in it's infancy, but they have made some remarkable discoveries and have actually been able to create organic molecules from scratch.

I already know of this. But the crazy thing is.. Organics didn't have to be built. A species can evolve from a few cells, but what about a synthetic? Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

I didn't know slave masters created their slaves from scratch.

Okay, but I thought the original question was "could synthetics build organics from scratch".   Not "can synthetic life arise naturally".

It was but nobody answered my question, aside from "maybes". If you wanna explain how, I'm cool with that. I'm saying that its not possible for a machine to create a living organic from scratch. 

I know organics create robots by putting together machinery, and circuity using electrecity as a power source(yes I know theres electricity in our bodies as well), but how would a synthetic do it? 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 06:04 .