1392 réponses à ce sujet

[Archontor]

Virtual winter wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

I must've missed that history lesson at school where they explained that slaves were built by slave-owners. 

 

If I built you would that give me a right to kill you? 

Besides wether something is created or not is no bearing on wether they wre people and killing someone for not obeying is impossible to justify.

[Rob_Nix]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

Reseach abiogenesis.

It's the study of life from nonlife.

It's still in it's infancy, but they have made some remarkable discoveries and have actually been able to create organic molecules from scratch.

I already know of this. But the crazy thing is.. Organics didn't have to be built. A species can evolve from a few cells, but what about a synthetic? Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

I didn't know slave masters created their slaves from scratch.

Okay, but I thought the original question was "could synthetics build organics from scratch".   Not "can synthetic life arise naturally".

It was but nobody answered my question, aside from "maybes". If you wanna explain how I'm cool with that. 

I don't know the specifics how.  Nobody does. LOL.  We can only speculate. I'm just saying it seems plausible to me.  Especially with advanced technology years from now.  

[balance5050]

ImperatorMortis wrote...
 Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

Your question is irrelevant.

Modifié par balance5050, 16 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[InsaneAzrael]

I'm just going to leave this here:

Susan Blackmore: Memes and "Temes"

[DevilBeast]

Virtual winter wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

I must've missed that history lesson at school where they explained that slaves were built by slave-owners. 

They weren´t build of course. But many slaves were bred into an existence of servitude. Much like the geth were build for the exact same thing.
Didn´t Tali in ME1 argue that if the geth had become a sentient being able to contemplate its own existence, then they were basically slaves to the quarians?? 

[Virtual winter]

Archontor wrote...

If I built you would that give me a right to kill you? 

Besides wether something is created or not is no bearing on wether they wre people and killing someone for not obeying is impossible to justify.

I love how they showed the construction of an AI here:

www.youtube.com/watch

Perhaps that was the quarians' mistake. If they made the geth to look like them it would've been way harder to dismantle them when they gained sentience!

[ImperatorMortis]

Rob_Nix wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

Reseach abiogenesis.

It's the study of life from nonlife.

It's still in it's infancy, but they have made some remarkable discoveries and have actually been able to create organic molecules from scratch.

I already know of this. But the crazy thing is.. Organics didn't have to be built. A species can evolve from a few cells, but what about a synthetic? Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

I didn't know slave masters created their slaves from scratch.

Okay, but I thought the original question was "could synthetics build organics from scratch".   Not "can synthetic life arise naturally".

It was but nobody answered my question, aside from "maybes". If you wanna explain how I'm cool with that. 

I don't know the specifics how.  Nobody does. LOL.  We can only speculate. I'm just saying it seems plausible to me.  Especially with advanced technology years from now.  

Maybe. But I don't see how, I was using the fact that Organics create synthetics, and not the other way around as an example of organic superiority. Because synthetics can be replaced.. Pretty easily. And for organics its not so easy, maybe even impossible.. Maybe. 

So.. Score one for me? 

balance5050 wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...
 Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

Your question is irrelevant.

 

Not exactly. See above post. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 06:07 .

[acidic-ph0]

ImperatorMortis wrote...


So how would you go about creating Organic life from scratch? You can't just shove a pile of meat together, and say there! He's alive! No. Just no. 

Machines are expendable you can destroy them, and create them good as new, you can even create one from scratch. An organic? HAHAHA!! 


No. 


How the hell would you go about creating organs from scratch, creating blood vessels from nothing, creating a functioning brain from scratch, how would you go about giving whatever you created the ability to produce? How would you give a creature the ability to create sperm, to create eggs, how would you repliclate the complexity of an organics nervous system from scratch? How would your creation be able to heal itself? How would its stomach work? Would it know how to eat? Would it feel? Would it have emotions? How would you make it possible for this creature to evolve? 

Would it even be able to move?!

No. Unless you can answer these questions I'm just going to conclude that you're full of ****, are blinded by your morals, and don't know what your talking about.

Well, speaking as someone who has worked with research animals... Creating organic life frome scratch... no we aren't there YET.

But I've seen mice that have jellyfish DNA, Pigs with HUMAN blood cells, Rats with human brain cells... It's very easy in the research world now to create transgenic animals by splicing DNA from different organisms into a developing embryo. Manufacturing life is getting easier and easier to be honest... and debates over the ethics of genetically modifying human embryos are already being talked about. We are also close to being able to clone organs for transplants. So eventually, in the next few decades, YES we might be able to create hearts, kidneys, lungs...etc from "scratch" as you say.

On a related note, a University of Florida scientist was even able to use rat brain cells connected to electrodes to pilot a plane in a flight simulator program --> 
http://www.scienceda...41022104658.htm 

Also, we can litterally alter the DNA of a human embryo so that when the child is born you could modify something as simple as it's hair and eye color, all the way to how intelligent the child could possibly be.

Again, we aren't at the point where we can create life "from scratch"... But chimeric and transgenic animals are definitely the first step into understanding the workings of organic life. Life isn't as mysterious as you think it is. 

It's just science. 

[AnsinJung]

It went down like the Titannic--not enough lifeboats--that's hardly the Geth's fault.

[Gorguz]

We don't know how long did this war last. But it takes just few years for starving a population.
Now, the geth surely had the control of the farms and factories. So it's not impossible that most quarians died because of lack of primary goods (food, drugs, etc.)

Modifié par Gorguz, 16 avril 2012 - 06:17 .

[General User]

The only weapons destructive enough to completely depopulate a planet of billions of sentients are also so destructive that their use would PERMANENTLY render the planet uninhabitable. That clearly was not the case. Legion in fact makes the opposite assertion in ME2.

The idea that collateral damage during the Morning War was responsible for the depopulation of Rannoch (and the other quarian worlds too, btw), simply does not hold water. Only a deliberate campaign of extermination can account for what happened to the quarians.

[DevilBeast]

Vromrig wrote...

Had the same thought.. or how it was argued for a long time if women had souls or not... or how it was said for a while that the native population of the new world had no souls, so they had to be conquered, etc...

It's getting creepy when you compare women's suffrage and human rights to whether or not a gear should be given the same treatment.

I´m pretty sure a simple "gear" isn´t able to understand the concept of a soul.

[Rob_Nix]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Rob_Nix wrote...

Reseach abiogenesis.

It's the study of life from nonlife.

It's still in it's infancy, but they have made some remarkable discoveries and have actually been able to create organic molecules from scratch.

I already know of this. But the crazy thing is.. Organics didn't have to be built. A species can evolve from a few cells, but what about a synthetic? Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

I didn't know slave masters created their slaves from scratch.

Okay, but I thought the original question was "could synthetics build organics from scratch".   Not "can synthetic life arise naturally".

It was but nobody answered my question, aside from "maybes". If you wanna explain how I'm cool with that. 

I don't know the specifics how.  Nobody does. LOL.  We can only speculate. I'm just saying it seems plausible to me.  Especially with advanced technology years from now.  

Maybe. But I don't see how, I was using the fact that Organics create synthetics, and not the other way around as an example of organic superiority. Because synthetics can be replaced.. Pretty easily. And for organics its not so easy, maybe even impossible.. Maybe. 

So.. Score one for me? 

balance5050 wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...
 Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

Your question is irrelevant.

 

Not exactly. See above post. 

You're moving the goal post.  We're talking about synthetic LIFE.  Not just simple machines or computers.

Someone even posted earlier that in the ME universe, AI's cannot simply be copied or transferred.  It would destroy the personality.

Also, since you seem to think AI is possible, please explain to us how a synthetic intelligence can suddenly become self-aware.  

[ImperatorMortis]

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Well, speaking as someone who has worked with research animals... Creating organic life frome scratch... no we aren't there YET.

But I've seen mice that have jellyfish DNA, Pigs with HUMAN blood cells, Rats with human brain cells... It's very easy in the research world now to create transgenic animals by splicing DNA from different organisms into a developing embryo. Manufacturing life is getting easier and easier to be honest... and debates over the ethics of genetically modifying human embryos are already being talked about. We are also close to being able to clone organs for transplants. So eventually, in the next few decades, YES we might be able to create hearts, kidneys, lungs...etc from "scratch" as you say.

On a related note, a University of Florida scientist was even able to use rat brain cells connected to electrodes to pilot a plane in a flight simulator program --> 
http://www.scienceda...41022104658.htm 

Also, we can litterally alter the DNA of a human embryo so that when the child is born you could modify something as simple as it's hair and eye color, all the way to how intelligent the child could possibly be.

Again, we aren't at the point where we can create life "from scratch"... But chimeric and transgenic animals are definitely the first step into understanding the workings of organic life. Life isn't as mysterious as you think it is. 

It's just science. 

Nice points, but thats still not creation. Its alteration. 

[Reorte]

DevilBeast wrote...

Didn´t Tali in ME1 argue that if the geth had become a sentient being able to contemplate its own existence, then they were basically slaves to the quarians?? 

Pretty much. She was arguing against the geth being self-aware because that would mean that they were slaves. In other words it's not true because we don't want to have to admit that we were slavers - plain and simple denial. Fortunately she grew up.

[ImperatorMortis]

[quote]Rob_Nix wrote...

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...

[quote]Rob_Nix wrote...

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...

[quote]Rob_Nix wrote...

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...

[quote]Rob_Nix wrote...

Reseach abiogenesis.

It's the study of life from nonlife.

It's still in it's infancy, but they have made some remarkable discoveries and have actually been able to create organic molecules from scratch.

[/quote]

I already know of this. But the crazy thing is.. Organics didn't have to be built. A species can evolve from a few cells, but what about a synthetic? Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 

[quote]DevilBeast wrote...

[quote]moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.
[/quote]

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.[/quote]

I didn't know slave masters created their slaves from scratch.

[/quote]

Okay, but I thought the original question was "could synthetics build organics from scratch".   Not "can synthetic life arise naturally".


[/quote]

It was but nobody answered my question, aside from "maybes". If you wanna explain how I'm cool with that. 

[/quote]

I don't know the specifics how.  Nobody does. LOL.  We can only speculate. I'm just saying it seems plausible to me.  Especially with advanced technology years from now.  

[/quote]

Maybe. But I don't see how, I was using the fact that Organics create synthetics, and not the other way around as an example of organic superiority. Because synthetics can be replaced.. Pretty easily. And for organics its not so easy, maybe even impossible.. Maybe. 

So.. Score one for me? 

[quote]balance5050 wrote...

[quote]ImperatorMortis wrote...
 Will metal start forming, and comming together on its own? Will it somehow create its own circuitry, and gradually evolve, slowly taking more, and more materials to add on to itself in an attempt to evolve with its surroundings, without any outside help? 


[/quote]

Your question is irrelevant.

[/quote] 

Not exactly. See above post. 

[/quote]

You're moving the goal post.  We're talking about synthetic LIFE.  Not just simple machines or computers.

Someone even posted earlier that in the ME universe, AI's cannot simply be copied or transferred.  It would destroy the personality.

Also, since you seem to think AI is possible, please explain to us how a synthetic intelligence can suddenly become self-aware.  

[/quote]

How would I go about explaining that? I mean theres the theory that if a computer keeps updating itself over, and over, and over it could reach sentience. But give my own personal explanation for how a computer could do that?

Nah. Also my post was mostly sarcastic. 

Edit: Oops. I thought you were talking about my "self evolving robot post". 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 06:16 .

[Rob_Nix]

I'm saying self-aware AI is pure speculation and fantasy as this point, too. Even though scientists have created organic molecules from "scratch". So there's actually more evidence to support my point than yours.

PWNED.

[Reorte]

Whether sentient life is created deliberately or accidentally, whether it's arisen naturally or artificially, whether it's been created or appeared naturally, is all irrelevent. The fact is that the thing in front of you now is alive and sentient. Its origins have no bearings whatsoever on how it should be treated.

[ImperatorMortis]

Rob_Nix wrote...

I'm saying self-aware AI is pure speculation and fantasy as this point, too. Even though scientists have created organic molecules from "scratch". So there's actually more evidence to support my point than yours.

PWNED.

Hmm.. You actually make a very good point. I concede that to you. 

I actually feel kind of silly for not seeing that myself. Well played. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 06:18 .

[InsaneAzrael]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Nice points, but thats still not creation. Its alteration. 

Quick question.. Do you believe that organic life was created or evolved?

Evolution is alteration and not creation btw.

[me3player]

I didn't saw children killed by geth.
Just one killed by BW, at the beginning.

 

[G Kevin]

Let me try to simplify the organic vs synthetic thing real quick.

Synthetics have to be created; Organics are "naturally" created by time.

Problem?

This whole discussion reminds me of I, Robot.

Modifié par G Kevin, 16 avril 2012 - 06:25 .

[ImperatorMortis]

InsaneAzrael wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Nice points, but thats still not creation. Its alteration. 

Quick question.. Do you believe that organic life was created or evolved?

Evolution is alteration and not creation btw.

That is a very tricky question imo. I definitly believe in evolution, but the thing is what did it evolve from at the begining? What I mean by that is what started the process?

Oh man... This is getting dangerously close to a theistic discussion, and I make it a point to never let myself get involved in that debate. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 16 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[GorrilaKing]

*sigh* I think BW just liked to throw big numbers around without considering the consequences. I sincerely doubt they actually thought about the Geth exterminating the Quarians by going door to door.
In any case...once more with feeling: a synthetic lifeform is not worth more or less than any organic lifeform. The very moment the Geth decided to favour their existence over their non-existence, they became lifeforms. Collective or individuals does not matter.
And you simply do not exterminate a lifeform just because it does not want to work for you!

[Rob_Nix]

G Kevin wrote...

Let me try to simplify the organic vs synthetic thing real quick.

Synthetics have to be created; Organics are "naturally" created by time.

Problem?

Yeah, this is sorta' confusing.  So, even if you were to create something using organic material, or carbon based material, it would still be synthetic, because it was created, not naturally forming.