1392 réponses à ce sujet

[Phatose]

G Kevin wrote...

Let me try to simplify the organic vs synthetic thing real quick.

Synthetics have to be created; Organics are "naturally" created by time.

Problem?

Kind of depends on you accepting that organics aren't natural - otherwise their actions are part of natural processes over time, and synthetics are naturally created as well.

Really the same problem you always run into with these kind of debates.  Synthetic only has any meaning if we do not include ourselves are part of nature.

[SentientSurfer]

GorrilaKing wrote...
And you simply do not exterminate a lifeform just because it does not want to work for you!

Yet Shepard took the luna A.I. offline when it became self aware. . .

[G Kevin]

Phatose wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Let me try to simplify the organic vs synthetic thing real quick.

Synthetics have to be created; Organics are "naturally" created by time.

Problem?

Kind of depends on you accepting that organics aren't natural - otherwise their actions are part of natural processes over time, and synthetics are naturally created as well.

Really the same problem you always run into with these kind of debates.  Synthetic only has any meaning if we do not include ourselves are part of nature.

Personally, compared to the rest of the Universe, organics are naturally created. However, intelligent life being natural is the bigger question.

[GorrilaKing]

SentientSurfer wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...
And you simply do not exterminate a lifeform just because it does not want to work for you!

Yet Shepard took the luna A.I. offline when it became self aware. . .

No, it was never an A.I. It was clearly stated that it was a VI that was malfunctioning and thus began considering the inhabitants of the base as hostiles.

[Vespervin]

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

If you think killing an innocent baby is the same as killing an enemy in war, you're pretty much a horrible human being. Sorry.

"No no, you cannot do this, we need them!, out of the way!, blam!"; funny, I don't seem to remember that particular quarian being armed when the police shot her, some enemy, must have been real frightening for the quarian police.

The Quarian Police Officer did not shoot the female Quarian, he only hit her in the stomach with his gun.  

[SentientSurfer]

No, it was never an A.I. It was clearly stated that it was a VI that was malfunctioning and thus began considering the inhabitants of the base as hostiles.

Nope. It became sentient. That was its malfunction. Sound familair?

It also became EDI who explains that she became self aware on Luna and the base staff tried to turn her off.  

Modifié par SentientSurfer, 16 avril 2012 - 06:35 .

[InsaneAzrael]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

InsaneAzrael wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Nice points, but thats still not creation. Its alteration. 

Quick question.. Do you believe that organic life was created or evolved?

Evolution is alteration and not creation btw.

That is a very tricky question imo. I definitly believe in evolution, but the thing is what did it evolve from at the begining? What I mean by that is what started the process?

Oh man... This is getting dangerously close to a theistic discussion, and I make it a point to never let myself get involved in that debate. 

lol.. Ya I'm not going down that route, no worries. Yet just to take the example if you will.. There is an undeniable conflict over the significance of that past. We can choose for one argument a creation process, another for an alteration process. The question of whether one or the other is true becomes irrelevant the more focused we get on what is actually happening/happened since the start. So we can go on about evolution in the meantime. We can make deductions for the intermittent results.

As for the quarian/geth thing.. Well, what we are going on about is the very different forms they take. So what is significant here is the idea that one was a genetic evolution. The other was a "memetic" evolution (see the link I left a bit back - susan blackmore).

You've made some arguments for physical replication as the evolutionary standard. i.e. bodies are the core. Whilst many others going down the sentience route were basing the argument in memetic evolution. In other words, the influence of information which mutates and creates a perfect emulator for what the physical forms react to as intelligent beings. Information is really at the heart here. Whether it be the "emotions" or the "culture" of a very alien "race" - the geth.

[acidic-ph0]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Nice points, but thats still not creation. Its alteration. 

How something comes into being is irrelevent.

I think you missed my point.

My point is that it doesn't matter how life is created. We're all machines whether we are composed of organic materials or synthetic materials.

Being self-aware, being curious, being capable of reason, and having the capacity to evolve... these are the things that make sentient life. The Geth may have been created at first, but they show every one of these aspects of sentient intelligence. As for evolution, while it's true they can not biologically evolve (although you could argue that adaptive progamming is analogous to biological evolution) they are certainly capably of cultural evolution as what is hinted at with Legion's ME2 conversations. 

And considering that the Geth do have a culture of sorts, they are already more alive than the Collectors or even the Reapers are, and those are biological/mechanical constructs.

[SentientSurfer]

The Luna VI only became an AI once Cerberus salvage the VI and put some Reaper tech in it. 

EDI tells you she was self aware and that she attacked the base's staff because she was confused and because they were trying to switch her off. She was later combined with reaper code. 

From the wiki:

When discussing AIs with EDI on the Normandy SR-2, it is more or less confirmed that the incident on Luna was in fact the result of an experiment in creating 'controllable' AI. Clearly things did not go as planned.[/list]

Modifié par SentientSurfer, 16 avril 2012 - 06:39 .

[Phatose]

G Kevin wrote...

Personally, compared to the rest of the Universe, organics are naturally created. However, intelligent life being natural is the bigger question.

Well, then I see 2 ways of looking at it:  Either intelligence doesn't set something apart from the rest of nature, in which case the Quarians creating the Geth is as natural as plant life causing the evolution of animals through oxygen creation.  Or intelligence does set something apart - in which case, shouldn't the Geth's intelligence be enough to make them equal?

[Giantdeathrobot]

In a setting where it is possible to ressurect a brain-dead person with all their memories and faculties, we are asking ourselves if creating organic life is possible? Even we are almost to the point where cloning and gene splicing is possible. Dr. Saleon cloned and grew organs inside people's bodies like it was nothing. Not saying you can have a human assembly line, but it's ludicrous to assume that creating life is out of reach for a setting as advanced as this one.

That said, yes that number of casualties does suggest an extermination campaign. How Quarians could go from 10 billion to 17 million otherwise is not explainable. A superweapon capable of that much damage would have left traves, or would probably have been mentionned. We're speculating at this point, however.

Also, I find it funny that 10 billion Quarians lost the Morning War, yet the 17 million strong, cobbled-together, antibiotics-dependant Migrant Fleet seemingly was curbstomping them right until the Reaper upgrades, and acctually manages to exterminate them if said upgrades are not applied by Legion. I guess they took the Geth by surprise, but even then, it seems suspiciously lopsided. The War Assets outright say that the Geth have the best infantry and navy in the galaxy, yet they seem feeble story-wise.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

They're toasters. [/troll]

[acidic-ph0]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

SentientSurfer wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...
And you simply do not exterminate a lifeform just because it does not want to work for you!

Yet Shepard took the luna A.I. offline when it became self aware. . .

01001000
01000101
01001100
01010000

HELP

Wow, I didn't realize that @_@ Kinda makes me feel pretty awful about shutting it down now... Also, I think like the rest of us, we didn't realise that the Luna VI was reacting because of being self-aware, or because of a simple malfunction.

[DevilBeast]

SentientSurfer wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...
And you simply do not exterminate a lifeform just because it does not want to work for you!

Yet Shepard took the luna A.I. offline when it became self aware. . .

And that is how we got EDI:).

Although, that actually confuses me a bit if you take what the codex says about A.I.´s and how they function into account:S

[G Kevin]

Phatose wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Personally, compared to the rest of the Universe, organics are naturally created. However, intelligent life being natural is the bigger question.

Well, then I see 2 ways of looking at it:  Either intelligence doesn't set something apart from the rest of nature, in which case the Quarians creating the Geth is as natural as plant life causing the evolution of animals through oxygen creation.  Or intelligence does set something apart - in which case, shouldn't the Geth's intelligence be enough to make them equal?

Beats me really. I have no experience with synthetic beings. I can't really speak for them.

[DevilBeast]

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Imperium Alpha wrote...

SentientSurfer wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...
And you simply do not exterminate a lifeform just because it does not want to work for you!

Yet Shepard took the luna A.I. offline when it became self aware. . .

01001000
01000101
01001100
01010000

HELP

Wow, I didn't realize that @_@ Kinda makes me feel pretty awful about shutting it down now... Also, I think like the rest of us, we didn't realise that the Luna VI was reacting because of being self-aware, or because of a simple malfunction.

Hmm.. I always suspected that the V.I. had "evolved" itself into an A.I. or maybe even being made into an A.I. by the Alliance (despite what galatic law says I´m pretty sure most of the Citadel species are researching in A.I. technology). Especially considering how Hackett tried to dodge the question if the V.I. had become self aware.

 

[acidic-ph0]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

In a setting where it is possible to ressurect a brain-dead person with all their memories and faculties, we are asking ourselves if creating organic life is possible? Even we are almost to the point where cloning and gene splicing is possible. Dr. Saleon cloned and grew organs inside people's bodies like it was nothing. Not saying you can have a human assembly line, but it's ludicrous to assume that creating life is out of reach for a setting as advanced as this one.

That said, yes that number of casualties does suggest an extermination campaign. How Quarians could go from 10 billion to 17 million otherwise is not explainable. A superweapon capable of that much damage would have left traves, or would probably have been mentionned. We're speculating at this point, however.

Also, I find it funny that 10 billion Quarians lost the Morning War, yet the 17 million strong, cobbled-together, antibiotics-dependant Migrant Fleet seemingly was curbstomping them right until the Reaper upgrades, and acctually manages to exterminate them if said upgrades are not applied by Legion. I guess they took the Geth by surprise, but even then, it seems suspiciously lopsided. The War Assets outright say that the Geth have the best infantry and navy in the galaxy, yet they seem feeble story-wise.

The Quarians have had 300 years to plan on destroying the Geth... So I guess it makes sense that they would know where to hit them and how hard when the time came...

The Geth most likely assumed that hostilities were over and I don't think they were prepared for the Quarians to go "all out" again... That would be stupid and illogical XD

I think that is also why the Quarians were nearly wiped out too... during the Morning War, the Quarians seemed ready to fight down to every last man woman and child. They refused to accept surrender as an option and that attitude doomed their species. 

I don't honestly believe that the Geth would just start killing everything from the beginning, However they were provoked by genocide, so they counteracted with genocide. I would imagine that in final acts of desperation, the Quarians probably unleashed nuclear weapons or other types of WMD's that toxified Rannoch and probably added to the casualties list. Kind of a scorched earth policy to war.

I imagine that the Morning War would be similar in scope to what a theoretical WWIII would be on Earth, or like what happenned to Tuchanka after all of the Krogan's nuclear wars.

Again, we have no clue about the specifics of what happened 300 years ago, so all we can do is speculate.

[Bill Casey]

They were making more Quarians!
The Geth were cutting off their supply lines!

[Lyrebon]

moater boat wrote...

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Or the Quarian leadership used chemical weapons to kill the rebels who supported the Geth, inadvertantly poisoning their own world and killing millions due to their belligerence and stupidity.

/thread

I don't remember this in the codex...

You also then don't seem to remember the quarians killing their own to get at the geth.

No I remember that, it was in that lame geth propaganda mission. Only that was an adult, so your argument is invalid.

Tactical advantage lies in killing younger generations so they're unable to reproduce and form a rebellion. Adult, child, to a machine what's the difference?

War is war, casualties are not selective based on age.

[Doom Lich]

They couldn't fit their entire species on their fleet to escape, but I'm sure they tried to.

Imagine 5 Billion Quarians trying to fit on ships fitted for 20 million. I'm sure billions starved to death or died from disease/malnutrition. Then the disorganized Quarian government set laws on reproduction to prevent it from getting any worse. (Tali actually tells you that there are strict laws on who can have children in the flotilla.)

It's an issue of logistics. Not Geth murder squads.

Think logistics before making claims like that.

[General User]

Doom Lich wrote...

They couldn't fit their entire species on their fleet to escape, but I'm sure they tried to.

Imagine 5 Billion Quarians trying to fit on ships fitted for 20 million. I'm sure billions starved to death or died from disease/malnutrition. Then the disorganized Quarian government set laws on reproduction to prevent it from getting any worse. (Tali actually tells you that there are strict laws on who can have children in the flotilla.)

It's an issue of logistics. Not Geth murder squads.

Think logistics before making claims like that.

Nope, geth murder squads.  As in anyone who was left on any of the quarian worlds was subsequently killed by the geth.

[Doom Lich]

General User wrote...

Doom Lich wrote...

They couldn't fit their entire species on their fleet to escape, but I'm sure they tried to.

Imagine 5 Billion Quarians trying to fit on ships fitted for 20 million. I'm sure billions starved to death or died from disease/malnutrition. Then the disorganized Quarian government set laws on reproduction to prevent it from getting any worse. (Tali actually tells you that there are strict laws on who can have children in the flotilla.)

It's an issue of logistics. Not Geth murder squads.

Think logistics before making claims like that.

Nope, geth murder squads.  As in anyone who was left on any of the quarian worlds was subsequently killed by the geth.

Sorry, where did you generate this from? You can literally see the Geth siese fire after the Quarians evacuated in the server mission.

[General User]

Doom Lich wrote...

General User wrote...

Doom Lich wrote...

They couldn't fit their entire species on their fleet to escape, but I'm sure they tried to.

Imagine 5 Billion Quarians trying to fit on ships fitted for 20 million. I'm sure billions starved to death or died from disease/malnutrition. Then the disorganized Quarian government set laws on reproduction to prevent it from getting any worse. (Tali actually tells you that there are strict laws on who can have children in the flotilla.)

It's an issue of logistics. Not Geth murder squads.

Think logistics before making claims like that.

Nope, geth murder squads.  As in anyone who was left on any of the quarian worlds was subsequently killed by the geth.

Sorry, where did you generate this from? You can literally see the Geth siese fire after the Quarians evacuated in the server mission.

It's the only explanation that makes sense.   Why?  What do you think happend to billions of quarians across several worlds?