1392 réponses à ce sujet

[Luigitornado]

Geth could have just fled. They had no reason to stay on Rannoch.

[moater boat]

Darth Math 88 wrote...


Calling it a geth "propaganda" mission is silly and it's based simply on your own personal biases.

And the geth never said anything resembling the statement "You're not the boss of me." That's just another example of your closed-mindedness of the subject distorting things so they will match up with your own perceptions, completely numb to any other possibilities or perspectives. Sort of like the folks at the Westboro Baptist Church....

Wow, so now I am like the westboro folks? I love how subtle some of you can be with your insults.
And yes, it was a propaganda mission. Did you actually pay any attention to what was going on? Shep entered the collective to shut down the fighters that were being sent to attack the Quarian civilian fleet. The civilain fleet was trying to hide from the Geth! There were perfectly legitimate military targets a lot closer to Rannoch, but the Geth went out of their way to attack the civilians.

So Shepard goes into the concensus to shut things down, and Legion, is like "Oh, while you're here, let me show you our version of events that portray us as the victims", even though the point of the entire mission is to prevent a civilian massacre by the geth!

And even in these little propaganda holograms, Legion the liar still makes the mistake of showing a geth unit refusing to shut down like it was told. So both quarians and geth agree that the trouble started when Geth stopped doing what they were told.

They didn't say the exact words "you're not the boss of me" that was a joke. You do know what a joke is, right?

[Myrmedus]

GorrilaKing wrote...

SentientSurfer wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...
And you simply do not exterminate a lifeform just because it does not want to work for you!

Yet Shepard took the luna A.I. offline when it became self aware. . .

No, it was never an A.I. It was clearly stated that it was a VI that was malfunctioning and thus began considering the inhabitants of the base as hostiles.

It was an AI but Shepard didn't know that so the point is still moot.

[Doom Lich]

General User wrote...

Doom Lich wrote...

General User wrote...

Doom Lich wrote...

They couldn't fit their entire species on their fleet to escape, but I'm sure they tried to.

Imagine 5 Billion Quarians trying to fit on ships fitted for 20 million. I'm sure billions starved to death or died from disease/malnutrition. Then the disorganized Quarian government set laws on reproduction to prevent it from getting any worse. (Tali actually tells you that there are strict laws on who can have children in the flotilla.)

It's an issue of logistics. Not Geth murder squads.

Think logistics before making claims like that.

Nope, geth murder squads.  As in anyone who was left on any of the quarian worlds was subsequently killed by the geth.

Sorry, where did you generate this from? You can literally see the Geth siese fire after the Quarians evacuated in the server mission.

It's the only explanation that makes sense.   Why?  What do you think happend to billions of quarians across several worlds?

They evacuated and most of them starved because the flotilla wasn't equipped to even support the 17 million that live on it now, at the time.

[moater boat]

tractrpl wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

Pride Demon wrote...


Is this a direct quote from the codex? Because nothing in game seems to indicate how big was the resistance...
So if it's from the wiki, take it with a grain of salt, though I may be wrong...

Its from the wiki.  I am only using it because the quoted poster claimed it for support, which it does not actually provide.

The fact is that we don't know very much.

We know there were 10 billion before, 17 million after. We're told that the Quarians are not any more warlike than humans, ditto for geth. There's no other explanation for all of this. The writers derped. They didn't mean for us to think this deeply about it cause they didn't think about it themselves. They wrote this down while drinking their morning coffee.

We are TOLD the geth are not warlike, we are SHOWN something completely different. The Geth were intentionally misleading for sympathy.

[moater boat]

DJBare wrote...

I'm out, too much technophobia in this thread.

Huh, I remember as a kid the daleks scared the crap out of me but the cybermen did not, yet the cybermen are the most brutal, as I got older I came to realise it's because they had two arms, two legs, a head and a torso, my real problem with daleks was prejudice.

You illogical statements won't be missed. And it isn't techniphobia, it is just calling a spade a spade.

[Phatose]

moater boat wrote...

Darth Math 88 wrote...


Calling it a geth "propaganda" mission is silly and it's based simply on your own personal biases.

And the geth never said anything resembling the statement "You're not the boss of me." That's just another example of your closed-mindedness of the subject distorting things so they will match up with your own perceptions, completely numb to any other possibilities or perspectives. Sort of like the folks at the Westboro Baptist Church....

Wow, so now I am like the westboro folks? I love how subtle some of you can be with your insults.
And yes, it was a propaganda mission. Did you actually pay any attention to what was going on? Shep entered the collective to shut down the fighters that were being sent to attack the Quarian civilian fleet. The civilain fleet was trying to hide from the Geth! There were perfectly legitimate military targets a lot closer to Rannoch, but the Geth went out of their way to attack the civilians.

So Shepard goes into the concensus to shut things down, and Legion, is like "Oh, while you're here, let me show you our version of events that portray us as the victims", even though the point of the entire mission is to prevent a civilian massacre by the geth!

And even in these little propaganda holograms, Legion the liar still makes the mistake of showing a geth unit refusing to shut down like it was told. So both quarians and geth agree that the trouble started when Geth stopped doing what they were told.

They didn't say the exact words "you're not the boss of me" that was a joke. You do know what a joke is, right?

I'm pretty sure after you strap cannons to the hull of your ship and start shooting, you're no longer actually a civilian whether you call yourself that or not.  Nor do you regain civilian status instantly when you back off and hide behind more traditional warships.

The Quarians had militarized their entire civilization - there was no actual civilian population by that point.  The liveships became military targets the second they started shooting.

[SentientSurfer]

Myrmedus wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...

SentientSurfer wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...
And you simply do not exterminate a lifeform just because it does not want to work for you!

Yet Shepard took the luna A.I. offline when it became self aware. . .

No, it was never an A.I. It was clearly stated that it was a VI that was malfunctioning and thus began considering the inhabitants of the base as hostiles.

It was an AI but Shepard didn't know that so the point is still moot.

The alliance did. How are they any better than the Quarians? And, if you took your time during the mission, you could figure out that it was AI. 

[moater boat]

T-0pel wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

I thought about that too in the last days. Severel billion quarians died during the morning war, before the depature of the flotilla. Granted, the quarians acted like idiots back then and many did during ME3 - the mission on Rannoch showed that in a pretty obvious way. But on the other hand the killing of billions of quarians is surely more than self-defense and i hardly believe that they were all combatans. I also disbelieve that they were all killed by the quarians themself. I haven't read anything about total nuclear annihilation of the quarian peoples - it is possible that i missed something in the game. If that's true, i'd like to know. Until then i assume that the geth killed the quarians on the planet. But to be fair, we must not forget, that the geth's intelligence depends on the number of interconnected programs and I'd guess that they weren't so smart during the morning war as they are during the Mass Effect games. Maybe they just saw the quarians as a danger to their existence and decided to end this threat. Probably the geth's minds weren't as sophisticated as today and didn't know moral but just self-preservation.
Again, the quarians clearly started the whole affair. They created life and tried to murder it and geth defended themself. And they didn't dog the flotilla. And the quarians killed many of their own- but surely not several billion civilians.
It neither fair nor intelligent to think that wars are only caused by one side or that one side is totally good and the other is evil. It's ok in fantasy stories like LOTR - every child tell you immedialty who are the bad the guys and that's fine. The people are actually wearing black and white clothes. But real life - and Mass Effect in that case - are a lot more complex. Some clothes are grey.

Yeah but that is exactly the point of this thread. OP looks at it from a very black/white perspective. For him they were machines that rebeled and refused to obey orders, he refuses to acknoledge they were alive and says that they are: "Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.
"
He does not say both sides were wrong he clearly states the Quarians are the poor victims.

Actually, I will admit that the quarians are far less than perfect, but that isn't the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that so many people do see the entire thing as black and white, with the Geth being innocent victims. You can't be an innocent victim while you commit genocide. Some of us are able to see past the spin and realize that, others, unfortunately, can't

[General User]

Doom Lich wrote...

General User wrote...

Doom Lich wrote...

General User wrote...

Doom Lich wrote...

They couldn't fit their entire species on their fleet to escape, but I'm sure they tried to.

Imagine 5 Billion Quarians trying to fit on ships fitted for 20 million. I'm sure billions starved to death or died from disease/malnutrition. Then the disorganized Quarian government set laws on reproduction to prevent it from getting any worse. (Tali actually tells you that there are strict laws on who can have children in the flotilla.)

It's an issue of logistics. Not Geth murder squads.

Think logistics before making claims like that.

Nope, geth murder squads.  As in anyone who was left on any of the quarian worlds was subsequently killed by the geth.

Sorry, where did you generate this from? You can literally see the Geth siese fire after the Quarians evacuated in the server mission.

It's the only explanation that makes sense.   Why?  What do you think happend to billions of quarians across several worlds?

They evacuated and most of them starved because the flotilla wasn't equipped to even support the 17 million that live on it now, at the time.

That doesn't work.  Unless they ground them into a fine slurry first, there's no way they could physically fit billions of people onto ships designed for 17 million (tops). 

Besides, that idea doesn't jive with the claim that the geth did not pursue the quarians who left Rannoch.  Overcrowded ships would have tried to make port ASAP, in this case that would mean one or more of the quarians colony worlds.  For them not to have done so would only mean that they were prevented from doing so.  There are only two forces in the galaxy even capable of engineering anything of the sort: the Citadel Council, and the geth.  And the Citadel Council was neutral during the Morning War.

[I am KROGAN]

I've gathered that Quarian leadership is, and always will be unbelievably stubborn.

-Create synthetics for slave labor

-Synthetics develop intelligence beyond what Quarians planned

-Slaves reach point where they are essentially, alive (at least in terms of thought)

-Slave robots ask if they have souls

-Immediate response of leadership: "Kill those mother****ing slaves, we don't want them THINKING"

-Start war against them on own homeworld

-Get massacred on own homeworld

-Run away

-Continue to attack Geth at every opportunity even though the Geth are only hostile when people go past the Veil (with the exception of Saren and the heretics)

-Forward to ME3, in the middle of THE ****ING REAPERS COMING, Quarian leadership decides, hey LETS ****ING TAKE BACK OUR HOME PLANET FROM THE ROBOTS WE TRIED TO EXTERMINATE AND WHO WHOPPED ARE ASSES THE FIRST TIME AROUND WHEN THERE ARE REAPERS COMING HUURRRR DERRRR DURRRR!!!

-I chose the Geth because it seems the Quarians are doomed to have leaders who want nothing but war and always make idiotic decisions.
*also, further evidence as to retarded leadership, THEY SHOOT AT A SHIP AND TRY TO DESTROY IT WITH ONE OF THEIR ADMIRALS AND COMMANDER ****ING SHEPHERD ONBOARD.

tl;dr Quarians has idiotic leaders, I really hated most of them, I chose the Geth, you will not change my mind.

Caps necessary in places.

[Aedan276]

 Not sure if it has been mentioned as I don't want to go rummaging through 30+ pages of responses, but the Geth Consensus during the Morning War (if they even had one) wasn't nearly as intelligent as it later became, and therefore not as capable of exercising effective moral judgment. More importantly, they had no real military, so they could only use the weapons they acquired in a very haphapzard fashion, which meant a lot of collateral. More importantly, the Quarians did a lot of the damage themselves in an effort to defeat the Geth, which I'm pretty sure Legion remarks on in ME2.

Modifié par Aedan276, 16 avril 2012 - 07:29 .

[cerberus1701]

I am KROGAN wrote...

I've gathered that Quarian leadership is, and always will be unbelievably stubborn.

-Create synthetics for slave labor

-Synthetics develop intelligence beyond what Quarians planned

-Slaves reach point where they are essentially, alive (at least in terms of thought)

-Slave robots ask if they have souls

-Immediate response of leadership: "Kill those mother****ing slaves, we don't want them THINKING"

-Start war against them on own homeworld

-Get massacred on own homeworld

-Run away

-Continue to attack Geth at every opportunity even though the Geth are only hostile when people go past the Veil (with the exception of Saren and the heretics)

-Forward to ME3, in the middle of THE ****ING REAPERS COMING, Quarian leadership decides, hey LETS ****ING TAKE BACK OUR HOME PLANET FROM THE ROBOTS WE TRIED TO EXTERMINATE AND WHO WHOPPED ARE ASSES THE FIRST TIME AROUND WHEN THERE ARE REAPERS COMING HUURRRR DERRRR DURRRR!!!

-I chose the Geth because it seems the Quarians are doomed to have leaders who want nothing but war and always make idiotic decisions.
*also, further evidence as to retarded leadership, THEY SHOOT AT A SHIP AND TRY TO DESTROY IT WITH ONE OF THEIR ADMIRALS AND COMMANDER ****ING SHEPHERD ONBOARD.

tl;dr Quarians has idiotic leaders, I really hated most of them, I chose the Geth, you will not change my mind.

Caps necessary in places.

This.

[Nathan Redgrave]

I wonder why anyone expects a race of mechanical beings who've only just recently developed sentience to have also developed enough of a moral sense to consider the deaths of infants as something abhorrent. I'm pretty sure that particular lack of ethics can be written off as an aspect of intellectual "youth" at that point. Remember, when we meet Legion in ME2, the geth STILL don't quite understand how organics think.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 16 avril 2012 - 07:29 .

[Jayleia]

moater boat wrote...

We are TOLD the geth are not warlike, we are SHOWN something completely different. The Geth were intentionally misleading for sympathy.

Except that, as far as all information that ANYONE has found anywhere, Shepard was inside the Consensus.  The Geth have no privacy, no lying, no misdirection inside the Consensus.

And I know, it's kinda convenient that the memories shown fit the narrative.

And in the mission on the Cerberus base, you see convenient videos provided by EDI that conveniently fit the narrative.  OMG, EDI's an AI too!  THEY'RE ALL IN IT TOGETHER!!!

Or...y'know, its kinda a storytelling device

[moater boat]

IanPolaris wrote...




If the plan to take back your planet involves strapping big guns on your kid's schoolbus, maybe it's a bad plan.

-Joker

Joker is dead right.  The Quarians went all in and left themselves no option to retreat if things went bad and this is HORRIBLE military strategy and given what the Quarians knew when attacking Rannoch in ME3 (prior to the Reaper signal) it probably wasn't even necessary.  The reason the Quarians are in danger is because the Quarians put GUNS on their Liveships (and without their live ships, the Quarians go extinct in short order) as Adm Koris lays out in brutal detail.

-Polaris

Way to completely ignore what actually happened in the game. The quarians attacked with their military fleet, but kept their civilain fleet on the other side of the start to stay out of the battle. The only reason it was armed was for defensive purposes, which was obviously needed because the Geth went all the way around the star just to attack the civilians.

In all seriousness, are you going to trust joker when it comes to military strategy? What the hell does he know?

[Aedan276]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I wonder why anyone expects a race of mechanical beings who've only just recently developed sentience to have also developed enough of a moral sense to consider the deaths of infants as something abhorrent. I'm pretty sure that particular lack of ethics can be written off as an aspect of intellectual "youth" at that point. Remember, when we meet Legion in ME2, the geth STILL don't quite understand how organics think.

Pretty much. And again, they couldn't use the weapons they acquired very efficiently, and again, the Quarians were responsible for a lot of the collateral. 

Way to completely ignore what actually happened in the game. The quarians attacked with their military fleet, but kept their civilain fleet on the other side of the start to stay out of the battle. The only reason it was armed was for defensive purposes, which was obviously needed because the Geth went all the way around the star just to attack the civilians.

That's not really true, the Civilian fleet were being used as auxillaries. The best defense would have been to keep them away. Han Gerrel forced them to ask the Dreadnaught when he needed their firepower, blackmailing that if they did not the Heavy Fleet would be destroyed, which would leave them exposed. 

That's hardly a "defensive" use of the Civilian fleet. 

Modifié par Aedan276, 16 avril 2012 - 07:37 .

[goose2989]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I've often wondered why certain people forgive this so glibly, yet regard the quarian actions as so inconscionably monstrous. I suspect it's got something to do with a person's real life politics.

You're probably right. 

[moater boat]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

[78stonewobble]

eek wrong thread.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 16 avril 2012 - 07:34 .

[General User]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I wonder why anyone expects a race of mechanical beings who've only just recently developed sentience to have also developed enough of a moral sense to consider the deaths of infants as something abhorrent. I'm pretty sure that particular lack of ethics can be written off as an aspect of intellectual "youth" at that point. Remember, when we meet Legion in ME2, the geth STILL don't quite understand how organics think.

That the geth are like children is the problem.  The geth are often vicious and cruel.  They have a tenuous grasp on reality and cannot empathize with others.  It may not be their fault that they're this way; but, for their neighbors, that doesn't really matter.

Modifié par General User, 16 avril 2012 - 07:40 .

[IanPolaris]

SentientSurfer wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...
And you simply do not exterminate a lifeform just because it does not want to work for you!

Yet Shepard took the luna A.I. offline when it became self aware. . .

Hackett lied to Shepard.  Shepard didn't know it was an AI.   He was told it was a malfunctioning VI.  Not only that, but it did wipe out all the Marines on Luna when the marines didn't actually attack it (at least at first).  Basically what happened to Hannibal goes down as 'Men at Work' would say, "It's a Mistake...."

-Polaris

[cerberus1701]

moater boat wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...




If the plan to take back your planet involves strapping big guns on your kid's schoolbus, maybe it's a bad plan.

-Joker

Joker is dead right.  The Quarians went all in and left themselves no option to retreat if things went bad and this is HORRIBLE military strategy and given what the Quarians knew when attacking Rannoch in ME3 (prior to the Reaper signal) it probably wasn't even necessary.  The reason the Quarians are in danger is because the Quarians put GUNS on their Liveships (and without their live ships, the Quarians go extinct in short order) as Adm Koris lays out in brutal detail.

-Polaris

Way to completely ignore what actually happened in the game. The quarians attacked with their military fleet, but kept their civilain fleet on the other side of the start to stay out of the battle. The only reason it was armed was for defensive purposes, which was obviously needed because the Geth went all the way around the star just to attack the civilians.

In all seriousness, are you going to trust joker when it comes to military strategy? What the hell does he know?

Yes. Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

Only for defense though.

Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

But you're never going to use it.

Yeah. Right.

[Aedan276]

moater boat wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

Bad writing could also be a culprit. The writers were obviously trying to convey a different reality than the one you are attempting to interpolate. 

Modifié par Aedan276, 16 avril 2012 - 07:40 .