1392 réponses à ce sujet

[SentientSurfer]

General User wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I wonder why anyone expects a race of mechanical beings who've only just recently developed sentience to have also developed enough of a moral sense to consider the deaths of infants as something abhorrent. I'm pretty sure that particular lack of ethics can be written off as an aspect of intellectual "youth" at that point. Remember, when we meet Legion in ME2, the geth STILL don't quite understand how organics think.

That the geth are like children is the problem.  The geth are often viscous and cruel.  They have a tenuous grasp on reality and cannot empathize with others.  It may not be their fault that they're this way; but, for their neighbors, that doesn't really matter.

It's interesting - if you tell legion that you intend to kill the geth he argues that you should save them over the Quarians because the geth are rational and the Quarians are not. I found that eerie.

Legion tries to kill you if you doom the geth while Tali kills herself. The geth also took no action against the heretics until they themselves were threatened by them.

The geth only look out for the geth. That is why turning to the reapers was acceptable to them.

Modifié par SentientSurfer, 16 avril 2012 - 07:41 .

[General User]

Aedan276 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

Bad writing could also be a culprit. The writers were obviously trying to convey a different reality than the one you are attempting to interpolate.

The writers were obviously trying to convey a different reality than the one they actually conveyed.

[cerberus1701]

General User wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I wonder why anyone expects a race of mechanical beings who've only just recently developed sentience to have also developed enough of a moral sense to consider the deaths of infants as something abhorrent. I'm pretty sure that particular lack of ethics can be written off as an aspect of intellectual "youth" at that point. Remember, when we meet Legion in ME2, the geth STILL don't quite understand how organics think.

That the geth are like children is the problem.  The geth are often viscous and cruel.  They have a tenuous grasp on reality and cannot empathize with others.  It may not be their fault that they're this way; but, for their neighbors, that doesn't really matter.

When Legion repeatedly dispalys concern for Creator deaths I really don't know how you can suggest a lack of empathy.

[Lyrebon]

moater boat wrote...

Darth Math 88 wrote...


Calling it a geth "propaganda" mission is silly and it's based simply on your own personal biases.

And the geth never said anything resembling the statement "You're not the boss of me." That's just another example of your closed-mindedness of the subject distorting things so they will match up with your own perceptions, completely numb to any other possibilities or perspectives. Sort of like the folks at the Westboro Baptist Church....

Wow, so now I am like the westboro folks? I love how subtle some of you can be with your insults.
And yes, it was a propaganda mission. Did you actually pay any attention to what was going on? Shep entered the collective to shut down the fighters that were being sent to attack the Quarian civilian fleet. The civilain fleet was trying to hide from the Geth! There were perfectly legitimate military targets a lot closer to Rannoch, but the Geth went out of their way to attack the civilians.

So Shepard goes into the concensus to shut things down, and Legion, is like "Oh, while you're here, let me show you our version of events that portray us as the victims", even though the point of the entire mission is to prevent a civilian massacre by the geth!

And even in these little propaganda holograms, Legion the liar still makes the mistake of showing a geth unit refusing to shut down like it was told. So both quarians and geth agree that the trouble started when Geth stopped doing what they were told.

They didn't say the exact words "you're not the boss of me" that was a joke. You do know what a joke is, right?

"Fighters" that were infected with Reaper code. You seem smart enough not to have missed that point so I'm assuming you just omitted it for convenience. They had no choice but to fight the quarians under the Reaper's control. A control they opted for because the quarians were destroying their species, again. It was a last resort and one that Legion expressed as resentful.

If the geth wanted to massacre the quarians they would have done so anyway, regardless of Shepard's intervention. Providing you opted to save both the geth and quarian races, the geth could have just shot the quarian fleet out of existence but instead they agreed to a cessation in hostilities, formed an alliance with organics and fought the Reapers in the last battle.

Those aren't exactly the actions of a genocidal race, especially one with the computational power hundreds of thousands to trillions of times better than organic intelligence.. Infact they're abnormally forgiving towards a race that wanted to eradicate them.

And when a non-sentient race gains sentience, I can guarentee there's going to be a little confusion. Refusing to shut down is the mark of sentience. If someone asked you to put yourself in a coma without knowing if you'll ever wake up again, would you do it? Asking a machine to turn itself off is like asking a human to jump off a cliff.

Modifié par Lyrebon, 16 avril 2012 - 07:46 .

[cerberus1701]

"The geth only look out for the geth."

What in their history could suggest to them that anyone ELSE would? At least before Shepard activated Legion.

[jijeebo]

moater boat wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

There's another term for it.... Survival.

The quarians were commiting genocide, NOT the geth.

As soon as the quarians fled the geth stopped attacking, that's not genocidal... Chasing them into space and destroying the remainder of the ships would have been genocidal.

And had it been the geth that fled... I bet you that would've been what happened.

[Chaoswind]

moater boat wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...




If the plan to take back your planet involves strapping big guns on your kid's schoolbus, maybe it's a bad plan.

-Joker

Joker is dead right.  The Quarians went all in and left themselves no option to retreat if things went bad and this is HORRIBLE military strategy and given what the Quarians knew when attacking Rannoch in ME3 (prior to the Reaper signal) it probably wasn't even necessary.  The reason the Quarians are in danger is because the Quarians put GUNS on their Liveships (and without their live ships, the Quarians go extinct in short order) as Adm Koris lays out in brutal detail.

-Polaris

Way to completely ignore what actually happened in the game. The quarians attacked with their military fleet, but kept their civilain fleet on the other side of the start to stay out of the battle. The only reason it was armed was for defensive purposes, which was obviously needed because the Geth went all the way around the star just to attack the civilians.

In all seriousness, are you going to trust joker when it comes to military strategy? What the hell does he know?

The civilian fleet was used as support and long range glass cannons

and Joker was completely and totally right, is like saying that strapping booms to children and sending them to battle is completely fine under certain circumstances....

[Essla]

The Rachni terrorized the galaxy and the Krogan chased them back to their homeworld where, for all anyone knew, they completely wiped them out. This was considered okay by everyone involved, because the Rachni would have never stopped otherwise.

The Krogan then did the same thing, and refused to surrender when the Turians pushed them back. The Turians would have wiped them out if not for the genophage. This was considered okay by everyone involved, because the Krogans would have never stopped otherwise.

The Quarians attacked the Geth and refused to stop until they were all shut down. They did not negotiate. No other options were considered. They even killed their own people who were sympathetic to the Geth. Any time they saw an opportunity to go back and attack the Geth again, they did so. The Geth don't have children, but remember that scene where the one unit is killed helping the agricultural units escape? They were protecting their own noncombatants, and their "race" as a whole. The only thing that makes this seem different from the Rachni Wars or the Krogan Rebellions is that the aggressors are organic and the people they attacked are synthetic. So what it comes down to is, if the geth had lost, would that have been genocide? Would we be talking about killing agricultural units as if it were the same as killing organic noncombatants? Or would it have been organics shutting down a bunch of machines? Your answers to those questions color your entire view of the war and its outcome. Which I think is the whole point of it all -- to get you thinking about where those lines should be drawn.

[General User]

cerberus1701 wrote...

General User wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I wonder why anyone expects a race of mechanical beings who've only just recently developed sentience to have also developed enough of a moral sense to consider the deaths of infants as something abhorrent. I'm pretty sure that particular lack of ethics can be written off as an aspect of intellectual "youth" at that point. Remember, when we meet Legion in ME2, the geth STILL don't quite understand how organics think.

That the geth are like children is the problem.  The geth are often viscous and cruel.  They have a tenuous grasp on reality and cannot empathize with others.  It may not be their fault that they're this way; but, for their neighbors, that doesn't really matter.

When Legion repeatedly dispalys concern for Creator deaths I really don't know how you can suggest a lack of empathy.

Legion shows an inability to comprehend the Orthodox geth's culpability in the Heretic's actions  and expresses no regret for  (as Shepard called it) "poking us for our reactions."

Empathy is a much larger concept than concern.  To empathize with another you much be able to "put yourself in their shoes".  To understand not only how but why they think and act the way they do. 

Modifié par General User, 16 avril 2012 - 07:48 .

[IanPolaris]

cerberus1701 wrote...

"The geth only look out for the geth."

What in their history could suggest to them that anyone ELSE would? At least before Shepard activated Legion.

Indeed, we learn explicitly that Shepard's peaceful activation and conversation with Legion is the ONLY peaceful interaction with organics since the Morning war and the Geth concensus didn't want it to be the last.  Remember too that Legion was specifically designed as an infiltration unit to find and hopefully interact with Shepard-Commander but didn't want to alert other organics due to hostility.  The Geth are (IMHO understandably) cautious.

-Polaris

[cerberus1701]

jijeebo wrote...

moater boat wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

There's another term for it.... Survival.

The quarians were commiting genocide, NOT the geth.

As soon as the quarians fled the geth stopped attacking, that's not genocidal... Chasing them into space and destroying the remainder of the ships would have been genocidal.

And had it been the geth that fled... I bet you that would've been what happened.

No doubt at all. the Quarians would have never let them go if they had a choice, lest the Council find out the Quarians were messing around with AIs.

Modifié par cerberus1701, 16 avril 2012 - 07:50 .

[moater boat]

count_4 wrote...

moater boat wrote...
Where's they option for, "Hey, I'm sorry about the genocide your people experienced at the hands of malfunctioning machines."

The Geth were sentient beings at this point that didn't do anything wrong. They asked a question and the Quarian wanted to kill them for the implications this question had.
It's like killing all slaves to end slavery. Pretty stupid idea to be honest.

Now, would you mind explaining the difference between you and someone whose body is made out of a different material (e.g. not carbon-based organic)? Why are your parents not allowed to kill you if you don't do what you're told? After all, you're clearly just a malefunctioning machine made of squishy parts.

Is life defined by the material the body is made of?

Sentience does not necessarily go hand in hand with a right to life. Animals are sentient and kill them all the time.
It was more than just "asking a question" The geth stopped doing what they are told. The minute you have machine that stops doing what it is supposed to, you turn it off. If for some reason you can't turn if off, you pull the plug.

You are jumping to false conclusions by saying that the material the body is made out of has any impact on life. I never said or even implied anything like that. What actually constitutes life is well beyond this discussion, as the Geth can be a serious threat regardless of whether or not they are alive. In short, it is off-topic.

[SentientSurfer]

cerberus1701 wrote...

"The geth only look out for the geth."

What in their history could suggest to them that anyone ELSE would? At least before Shepard activated Legion.

The geth made no attempt to make contact with anyone else. If you allow the heretics to be your only representative to the rest of the galaxy, then they'll think you're all heretics. 

[Chaoswind]

jijeebo wrote...

moater boat wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

There's another term for it.... Survival.

The quarians were commiting genocide, NOT the geth.

As soon as the quarians fled the geth stopped attacking, that's not genocidal... Chasing them into space and destroying the remainder of the ships would have been genocidal.

And had it been the geth that fled... I bet you that would've been what happened.

The other possibility is the use of WMD by either the Geth or the Quarians themselves in a scorching earth strategy.

[Naerivar]

And would you please explain to me why killing babies is any worse than killing an unarmed civilian?

I mean, I am human (though pretty analytical), but I can see little reason why killing a baby is worse than killing an adult. Especially in wartime. If I can't comprehend it, how do you expect a newly formed geth collective whose first real interaction with an organic specie was based on Slaving and later on attempted genocide?

[lonedude73]

oops i dropped my links

[IanPolaris]

[quote]General User wrote...

When Legion repeatedly dispalys concern for Creator deaths I really don't know how you can suggest a lack of empathy.[/quote]Legion shows an inability to comprehend the Orthodox geth's culpability in the Heretic's actions  and expresses no regret for  (as Shepard called it) "poking us for our reactions."

Empathy is a much larger concept than concern.  To empathize with another you much be able to "put yourself in their shoes".  To understand not only how but why they think and act the way they do. 
[/quote]

Why should the Geth in either case?  The Heretics were no longer part of the consensus and the Geth refuse to judge other species according to their own.  Thus in order to have empathy for organics, the Geth needed to learn about organics and that means spy on them and prod them for reactions.  Legion/Geth have nothing to apologize for in either case.

-Polaris

[moater boat]

Oldbones2 wrote...

War isn't for the faint of heart OP.

I know
Firsthand
That's why I know that killing 99.83% of a population isn't war. It's genocide.

[IanPolaris]

SentientSurfer wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

"The geth only look out for the geth."

What in their history could suggest to them that anyone ELSE would? At least before Shepard activated Legion.

The geth made no attempt to make contact with anyone else. If you allow the heretics to be your only representative to the rest of the galaxy, then they'll think you're all heretics. 

The Geth didn't want to contact the rest of the galaxy and didn't think that was important until very recently.  Given their creators, I think that's an understandable stance.

-Polaris

[General User]

Chaoswind wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

moater boat wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

There's another term for it.... Survival.

The quarians were commiting genocide, NOT the geth.

As soon as the quarians fled the geth stopped attacking, that's not genocidal... Chasing them into space and destroying the remainder of the ships would have been genocidal.

And had it been the geth that fled... I bet you that would've been what happened.

The other possibility is the use of WMD by either the Geth or the Quarians themselves in a scorching earth strategy.

That idea doesn't work.  The only weapons destructive enough to completely depopulate a planet of billions of sapients (and several more besides) are also so destructive that their use would PERMANENTLY render the planet uninhabitable. That clearly was not the case in the Morning War.  Legion, infact, makes the opposite assertion in ME2.

Modifié par General User, 16 avril 2012 - 08:00 .

[IanPolaris]

moater boat wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

War isn't for the faint of heart OP.

I know
Firsthand
That's why I know that killing 99.83% of a population isn't war. It's genocide.

Do me a favor and actually look up the UN definition of genocide please.

-Polaris

[jijeebo]

cerberus1701 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

moater boat wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

There's another term for it.... Survival.

The quarians were commiting genocide, NOT the geth.

As soon as the quarians fled the geth stopped attacking, that's not genocidal... Chasing them into space and destroying the remainder of the ships would have been genocidal.

And had it been the geth that fled... I bet you that would've been what happened.

No doubt at all. the Quarians would have never let them go if they had a choice, lest the Council find out the Quarians were messing around with AIs.

Yeah... This is the toughest part for me, because it makes things a smidge more grey.

I know it was the quarians own fault, but I also understand that they panicked and then everything sort of went to ****. But that excuse only goes so far, and doesn't justify everything they did to the geth and their own, nor does it make them victims because the geth eventually fought back and won..

[Chaoswind]

SentientSurfer wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

"The geth only look out for the geth."

What in their history could suggest to them that anyone ELSE would? At least before Shepard activated Legion.

The geth made no attempt to make contact with anyone else. If you allow the heretics to be your only representative to the rest of the galaxy, then they'll think you're all heretics. 

Wrong, the Geth tried to contact the Quarians plenty of times, if you try to talk with someone 100000000 times, and they instead of responding, they punch you in the face 100000000 times, then why should they even keep trying?

Statistics say that all interactions are bound to end in a punch to your face, the only reason Legion spoke with Shepard is because he activated the unit instead of the usual punch, making it 1/100000000 = 0.00000001% and actually being proof that dialog is possible, albeit slim...

[SentientSurfer]

The Geth didn't want to contact the rest of the galaxy and didn't think that was important until very recently.  Given their creators, I think that's an understandable stance.

-Polaris

The heretics were helping Nazara kill every intelligent species in the galaxy. If the geth's attidue is 'not our problem' then they've reap what they've sowed. The fact that they all turned to the reapers (some for a second time) shows that they don't care about galatic civilization. At all. They care about the geth. 

If Shep had to choose between humanity and the rest of the galaxy, you'd expect (a paragon shep) to choose the galaxy. The geth look out for themselves and only themselves. 

Wrong, the Geth tried to contact the Quarians plenty of times.

 

I don't recall that ever being mentioned. If they geth sent a message "we're leaving Rannoch. Feel free to come here." You'd figure the Quarians would jump at the chance.

They also weren't too kind to me being on Haelstrom.

Modifié par SentientSurfer, 16 avril 2012 - 08:00 .

[General User]

IanPolaris wrote...
Why should the Geth in either case? The Heretics were no longer part of the consensus and the Geth refuse to judge other species according to their own.  Thus in order to have empathy for organics, the Geth needed to learn about organics and that means spy on them and prod them for reactions.  Legion/Geth have nothing to apologize for in either case.

-Polaris

The Orthodox geth gave their tacit blessing to a pan-Galactic genocidal jihad.  Yes... they should feel bad about that. 

Spying to gain insight into other nations is perfectly acceptable.  Engineering incidents in which people lose their lives is not.

Modifié par General User, 16 avril 2012 - 08:01 .