1392 réponses à ce sujet

[Aedan276]

SentientSurfer wrote...

General User wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I wonder why anyone expects a race of mechanical beings who've only just recently developed sentience to have also developed enough of a moral sense to consider the deaths of infants as something abhorrent. I'm pretty sure that particular lack of ethics can be written off as an aspect of intellectual "youth" at that point. Remember, when we meet Legion in ME2, the geth STILL don't quite understand how organics think.

That the geth are like children is the problem.  The geth are often viscous and cruel.  They have a tenuous grasp on reality and cannot empathize with others.  It may not be their fault that they're this way; but, for their neighbors, that doesn't really matter.

It's interesting - if you tell legion that you intend to kill the geth he argues that you should save them over the Quarians because the geth are rational and the Quarians are not. I found that eerie.

Legion tries to kill you if you doom the geth while Tali kills herself. The geth also took no action against the heretics until they themselves were threatened by them.

The geth only look out for the geth. That is why turning to the reapers was acceptable to them.

The first observation is completely fair. The Quarians's mania for recovering their homeworld has caused them to overlook pretty much any consideration that would have held them back from it, including the advent of a cycle wherein all organic civilizations (including the Migrant Fleet) will be harvested and turned into Lovecraftian cyborgs, or the fact that the Migrant Fleet has an inherently limited capacity to fight a species as large as the Geth, who are capable of fighting multiple Council species -- which is why they had to jerry rig the Civilian fleet to have the firing capacity of Dreadnaughts and use them as auxillaries (in violation of a key intragalactic treaty). 

Your second point is kind of valid, but not really. For one thing, the Quarians have made so many mistakes and lapses (the narrative is pretty lopsided in favor of the Geth) that Tali doesn't have any moral standing to argue for her people other than they aren't Synthetics, and she is too in awe of Shepard to know challenging him/her will do any good.  Legion also looks up to Shepard on a personal level, but as an avatar of the Geth Consensus considers itself co-equal to him, and therefore capable of resisting his decisions if he disagrees with them at a moral level. Generally Legion believes the Geth have behaved much better than the Quarians have, and deserve to live, so he is willing to resist Shepard. 

Modifié par Aedan276, 16 avril 2012 - 08:02 .

[moater boat]

IanPolaris wrote...

However, looking at Legion, it's clear that the Geth are evolving some sort of ethical/emotional sense (why else would Legion wear Shep's old N7 armor and play Shepard in cosplay?) The developement of both EDI and Legion/Geth show that the starchild is wrong and is one big reason the ending just fails.

-Polaris

OR the Geth have realized that organica have emotions and they have learned to use that to their advantage. This perfectly explains the N7 Armor, the propoganda mission in the Geth concensus, and Legions peculiar habit of calling Commander Shepard "Shepard Commander"

Actually regarding that last part, my theory is that the Geth studied human history on the Extranet, saw how popular starwars was, and decided to try talking backwards like Yoda in an attempt to achieve an emotional response.

[XTR3M3]

I think the problem is BioWare mixed 2 things that work like oil and water.

1> fear of terminator style attitudes of when AIs become a lifeform
2> fear caused by a change in the slave/owner relationship when the slave actually starts to believe they are a person.
Those 2 things don't work well together...especially using #1 as an excuse to justify #2.

either way, there is documented proof in game that the "un-reaperfied" Geth just wanted survival.

[Essla]

moater boat wrote... 

Sentience does not necessarily go hand in hand with a right to life. Animals are sentient and kill them all the time.
It was more than just "asking a question" The geth stopped doing what they are told. The minute you have machine that stops doing what it is supposed to, you turn it off. If for some reason you can't turn if off, you pull the plug.

You are jumping to false conclusions by saying that the material the body is made out of has any impact on life. I never said or even implied anything like that. What actually constitutes life is well beyond this discussion, as the Geth can be a serious threat regardless of whether or not they are alive. In short, it is off-topic.

But this actually gets to the heart of the argument, because not everyone thinks it's okay to kill animals. Moreover, most people don't consider it okay to kill an animal just for not doing what it's told. My dog doesn't do anything I tell him to, but I don't go buy a gun and shoot him. And like the geth, my dog could probably kill me if he wanted to as well.

Modifié par Essla, 16 avril 2012 - 08:05 .

[Chaoswind]

General User wrote...

Chaoswind wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

moater boat wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

There's another term for it.... Survival.

The quarians were commiting genocide, NOT the geth.

As soon as the quarians fled the geth stopped attacking, that's not genocidal... Chasing them into space and destroying the remainder of the ships would have been genocidal.

And had it been the geth that fled... I bet you that would've been what happened.

The other possibility is the use of WMD by either the Geth or the Quarians themselves in a scorching earth strategy.

That idea doesn't work.  The only weapons destructive enough to completely depopulate a planet of billions of sapients (and several more besides) are also so destructive that their use would PERMANENTLY render the planet uninhabitable. That clearly was not the case in the Morning War.  Legion, infact, makes the opposite assertion in ME2.

Why not?

Geth developed the BEST weather control of the known galaxy, even better than the ones the salarians used in Tuchanca, why develop that technology if the use of it wasn't critical?

Remember that planet the Hetetics where terraforming, and the reward of the little side mission was quote "the most impresive weather control technology", why would the Geth have such technology if they honestly DON'T need it?

The Geth had to FIX the HUGE mess that was Rannok and this led them to the most advanced terraforming technology in the galaxy, so **** YEAH RANNOK was sure as hell not habitable until the Geth fixed it, at least that is the most likely scenario.

[IanPolaris]

General User wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Why should the Geth in either case? The Heretics were no longer part of the consensus and the Geth refuse to judge other species according to their own.  Thus in order to have empathy for organics, the Geth needed to learn about organics and that means spy on them and prod them for reactions.  Legion/Geth have nothing to apologize for in either case.

-Polaris

The Orthodox geth gave their tacit blessing to a pan-Galactic genocidal jihad.  Yes... they should feel bad about that. 

Spying to gain insight into other nations is perfectly acceptable.  Engineering incidents in which people lose their lives is not.

They did not tacit or otherwise.  The orthodox Geth simply considered the Heretic's conclusion to be invalid but it didn't involve them.  Geth responsibility== zero.

-Polaris

[SentientSurfer]

Aedan276 wrote...

Your second point is kind of valid, but not really. For one thing, the Quarians have made so many mistakes and lapses (the narrative is pretty lopsided in favor of the Geth) that Tali doesn't have any moral standing to argue for her people other than they aren't Synthetics, and she is too in awe of Shepard to know challenging him/her will do any good.  Legion also looks up to Shepard on a personal level, but as an avatar of the Geth Consensus considers itself co-equal to him, and therefore capable of resisting his decisions if he disagrees with them at a moral level. Generally Legion believes the Geth have behaved much better than the Quarians have, and deserve to live, so he is willing to resist Shepard. 

Good critique. I'll point this out -- If Tali is dead her replacement will kill herself as well. 

[General User]

Chaoswind wrote...
Geth developed the BEST weather control of the known galaxy, even better than the ones the salarians used in Tuchanca, why develop that technology if the use of it wasn't critical?

Remember that planet the Hetetics where terraforming, and the reward of the little side mission was quote "the most impresive weather control technology", why would the Geth have such technology if they honestly DON'T need it?

You half answered your own question right here.  Climate control was a Heretic project.  They wanted to kill organics by rendering graden worlds uninhabitable. 

The Geth had to FIX the HUGE mess that was Rannok and this led them to the most advanced terraforming technology in the galaxy, so **** YEAH RANNOK was sure as hell not habitable until the Geth fixed it, at least that is the most likely scenario.

Legion says otherwise.  According to them, Rannoch, even at it's worst, never got near as bad as Tuchanka.  And Tuchanka still supports a population in the billions.

[TheCinC]

Good grief.. Over thirty pages about this? I'm sorry, TLDR, but I did read the OP and it's an interesting thing to consider.

Just my 2 cents, but I think you found a plothole, assuming those figures are anywhere near correct. You can explain it away, but it probably just means the writers never intended for reconciliation with the Geth when they first introduced them. The Geth were probably originally planned as being just plain evil. They were on Sovereign's side, that has to say something. Heck, they didn't even have a firm plan for the ending in place when they started out writing. The plan that existed, regarding Dark Energy, went out the window, and probably for the best, because it probably makes about as much sense as the ending we have now. I'm no physicist, but I think I know enough about physics to know that this plotline would have no basis in science and would just have been plain fiction, not science fiction.

One might also wonder, if the Geth were such nice AI back then, where are all the descendants of former prisoners of war. I'm sure the Quarians dissassembled the Geth they captured, did the Geth just return the favour? I'm sure humanoids see a distinction there, but killing prisoners of war is a war crime and two wrongs do not make a right. You can't simply say they all died of infections due to weakened immune systems, because they stayed on Rannoch, so they must have had an immune system adapted to the Rannoch eco-system. Also, with the Geth built to help the Quarians, I'm sure at least one of them could cook, so they couldn't have starved. Maybe they were all allowed to leave with the other Quarians, or allowed to follow them behind?

Anyway, I can think of at least a few explanations:

1) All those Quarians died under other circumstances, such as in space. But it seems highly unlikely. Even in the future, most people will never leave their home planet. Getting billions of people onto starships? Just not possible.

2) They died due to collateral effects of the warfare. Nuclear bombs, just not on such a huge scale as what the Krogan did to themselves? Again, not likely. The Quarians would have had to consider the ramifications and if the Geth didn't want to kill the Quarians, they would have considered the consequences as well. Unless they weren't smart enough to properly do so, but even that seems a bit silly.

3) Maybe the Quarians were winning, until the Geth were willing and able to use weapons of mass destruction, in order to prevent being wiped out altogether. Maybe it was a bioweapon of some kind and many Quarians died once it was released. Perhaps even a bioweapon the Quarians had once invented themselves, but had never used. It would have had the added benefit of -forcing- the Quarians to leave. In which case, in a horrible way, it could be construed as using a weapon of last resort in order to prevent being wiped out altogether and would also be a horribly rational course of action for an AI. It doesn't make the Geth a very nice people, however. On the other hand, it seems fairly plausible the Quarians were ruthless as well. Considering many would not have seen the Geth as alive, they would not have cared about their welfare at all. Consider what an electromagnetic pulse or a well-written computer virus could have done. If you consider the Geth to be alive, I'm pretty sure the Quarians set out to commit genocide themselves.

4) Alternatively, maybe the figures are wrong (read: would be retconned if Bioware cared), maybe there were relatively few Quarians when they left Rannoch, or maybe many of them lived on colonies and therefore didn't count. In space battles, an AI's advantage in targeting would be huge, so anyone from outside of Rannoch would pretty quickly be at a disadvantage. Combined with many Quarians dying in space, especially after a few generations, when their immune systems had basically ceased to function, you might get somewhere. In that case their numbers have dwindled in space and the initial group wasn't as large to begin with. This actually seems a fairly decent explanation to me. Also consider that if their planet was densely populated, they probably never would have needed such a large group of artificial beings in the first place. There had to have been a fairly large group, because they are nowhere near invincible, yet managed to drive the Quarians from their home planet. Even assuming a kill-ratio of 10 to 1 in favour of the Geth, which is a huge gap, even if you consider that many Quarians, the young and the elderly, up to 50 percent of the population, would not really have been able to fight, there would have needed to be a group of Geth 1/10th the size of the entire Quarian population in order to win. Otherwise the Quarians would have won by sheer numerical superiority.

Anyway, considering how willing the Quarians are to suddenly trust the Geth, there has to be some kind of explanation. Otherwise someone better versed in the Quarian people's history would have raised the alarm before anyone other than Tali and the Quarians who went before her set foot on Rannoch.

[Jat371]

SentientSurfer wrote...

The Geth didn't want to contact the rest of the galaxy and didn't think that was important until very recently.  Given their creators, I think that's an understandable stance.

-Polaris

The heretics were helping Nazara kill every intelligent species in the galaxy. If the geth's attidue is 'not our problem' then they've reap what they've sowed. The fact that they all turned to the reapers (some for a second time) shows that they don't care about galatic civilization. At all. They care about the geth. 

If Shep had to choose between humanity and the rest of the galaxy, you'd expect (a paragon shep) to choose the galaxy. The geth look out for themselves and only themselves.

And what exactly is wrong with that? Indifference does not equal malice or evil. They wanted to remain uninvolved. How can you blame them for not trying to defend organic civilization when all organics have done is try to kill them?

And the Geth likely submit to the Reapers in ME3 because the Quarians destroy the Dyson sphere the Geth were building. Without sufficient carriers the Geth lost a huge portion of intelligence and rational thought which was compounded by desperation given the Quarians were engaged in the act of killing them.

Modifié par Jat371, 16 avril 2012 - 08:13 .

[General User]

IanPolaris wrote...

General User wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Why should the Geth in either case? The Heretics were no longer part of the consensus and the Geth refuse to judge other species according to their own.  Thus in order to have empathy for organics, the Geth needed to learn about organics and that means spy on them and prod them for reactions.  Legion/Geth have nothing to apologize for in either case.

-Polaris

The Orthodox geth gave their tacit blessing to a pan-Galactic genocidal jihad.  Yes... they should feel bad about that. 

Spying to gain insight into other nations is perfectly acceptable.  Engineering incidents in which people lose their lives is not.

They did not tacit or otherwise.  The orthodox Geth simply considered the Heretic's conclusion to be invalid but it didn't involve them.  Geth responsibility== zero.

-Polaris

The Orthodox geth had a better than general idea of what Sovereign and the Heretics were planning and they didn't even try to stop it.  You don't get to just wash your hands of something like that.

Modifié par General User, 16 avril 2012 - 08:14 .

[moater boat]

Silpheed58 wrote...

I find threads like these humorous because some of the posters and usually the OP have no idea what they are talking about, especially in regards to war. Since these people obviously are not history buffs, don't watch the war specials on the History channel and probably don't read about war; they need to go listen to most of what Javik has to say because just about everything he has to say is true.

Yes we all want to think everything should be as ideal as the outcomes we can produce as Commander Shepard, but guess what, the Commander is the ultimate soldier what he does does not usually happen in war. And if something similar happens it defiantly not on the scale of the miracles he performs.

War is nasty, people do reprehensible things during war, why do you think phrases like "Victory at any cost!" exist. We try to pretty it up with things like war crimes, and BS like that. In truth there rarely is any morale black and white to war, it's entirely gray. Some one gets attacked, why, they were positioning themselves to be a threat to someone, or they have something another country wants. In one case the country attack is a victim the other is being an aggressor, the war takes place and while fighting both will do horrible things to win.

Some one said "The Quarians would poison their planet." BS Just like we wouldn't destroy ours? That why we have stockpiles of weapons that we we first invented them some scientist were scared they would burn off our atmosphere; yet we still used them? And now we have enough of them to destroy our planet more than 40 times over; and we still have idiots trying to develop some?

War is nonsensical war is not rational, all well made plans devolve at the moment of initial conflict. It's easy to sympathize with the Quarians, because yes being bumped from your homeland/world is sad as is being pushed to the brink of Genocide on both sides. Lest we forget had the Quarians won they would have killed all the Geth, not to mention mass murdered all the Quarians who felt the Geth had a right to live.

OP here.
Veteran AND a history buff. That's exactly why I know that killing 99.83% of an enemy population is just insane.
Even historical events like the Siege of Jerusalem don't even come close to that number. Even the battle of Masada, where the losing side went on to committ mass suicide had over 4 times as many survivors proportionately.  (0.7% survived Masada and 0.17% survived the morning war)

So please, in the future avoid jumping to conclusions and tossing around insults, because you never know when you might end up coming across someone who can totally shut down your arguments with cold, hard, facts.

[SentientSurfer]

Jat371 wrote...
And the Geth likely submit to the Reapers in ME3 because the Quarians destroy the Dyson sphere the Geth were building. Without sufficient carriers the Geth lost a huge portion of intelligence and rational thought which was compounded by desperation given the Quarians were engaged in the act of killing them.

You can ask legion why they did so, and even he isn't convicned it was justified. 

Shep: "The geth were willing to surrender free will in order to survive as reaper-controlled husks?"
Legion: "That was, apparently, an acceptable compromise."

[Chaoswind]

TheCinC wrote...



3) Maybe the Quarians were winning, until the Geth were willing and able to use weapons of mass destruction, in order to prevent being wiped out altogether. Maybe it was a bioweapon of some kind and many Quarians died once it was released. Perhaps even a bioweapon the Quarians had once invented themselves, but had never used. It would have had the added benefit of -forcing- the Quarians to leave. In which case, in a horrible way, it could be construed as using a weapon of last resort in order to prevent being wiped out altogether and would also be a horribly rational course of action for an AI. It doesn't make the Geth a very nice people, however. On the other hand, it seems fairly plausible the Quarians were ruthless as well. Considering many would not have seen the Geth as alive, they would not have cared about their welfare at all. Consider what an electromagnetic pulse or a well-written computer virus could have done. If you consider the Geth to be alive, I'm pretty sure the Quarians set out to commit genocide themselves.

4) Alternatively, maybe the figures are wrong (read: would be retconned if Bioware cared), maybe there were relatively few Quarians when they left Rannoch, or maybe many of them lived on colonies and therefore didn't count. In space battles, an AI's advantage in targeting would be huge, so anyone from outside of Rannoch would pretty quickly be at a disadvantage. Combined with many Quarians dying in space, especially after a few generations, when their immune systems had basically ceased to function, you might get somewhere. In that case their numbers have dwindled in space and the initial group wasn't as large to begin with. This actually seems a fairly decent explanation to me. Also consider that if their planet was densely populated, they probably never would have needed such a large group of artificial beings in the first place. There had to have been a fairly large group, because they are nowhere near invincible, yet managed to drive the Quarians from their home planet. Even assuming a kill-ratio of 10 to 1 in favour of the Geth, which is a huge gap, even if you consider that many Quarians, the young and the elderly, up to 50 percent of the population, would not really have been able to fight, there would have needed to be a group of Geth 1/10th the size of the entire Quarian population in order to win. Otherwise the Quarians would have won by sheer numerical superiority.

That is what I think as well, is more likely that the Geth used a bioweapon that the Quarians themselves developed, is the only explanation that works with what we know.

[lonedude73]

SentientSurfer wrote...

The Geth didn't want to contact the rest of the galaxy and didn't think that was important until very recently.  Given their creators, I think that's an understandable stance.

-Polaris

The heretics were helping Nazara kill every intelligent species in the galaxy. If the geth's attidue is 'not our problem' then they've reap what they've sowed. The fact that they all turned to the reapers (some for a second time) shows that they don't care about galatic civilization. At all. They care about the geth. 

1 how would we know wich side is the good side
2  why did the geth built memorials for the quarians
3  you can feel fear from legion about the reapers. How would you feel wen your home that your builing is destoryed and intelligence is dimmed
you better watch

Modifié par lonedude73, 16 avril 2012 - 08:24 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

Laurencio wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
Was that even an AI? Hackett described it as a malfunctioning VI. Unless we are assuming that Hackett was BSing us to cover up what happened, then it wasn't self-aware - destroying it wouldn't be any different from deactivating an Avina on the Citadel.

The Hanibal AI is an early version of EDI

So yeah, Hackett was BSing you.

Did the "jump" to becoming an AI happen before or after Cerberus made modifications? I don't remember the vids from the Cerberus base that well - I'm willing to be proven wrong on this one - but I don't recall it specifying that it was already an AI at the time that Hackett sent Shepard in there to shut it down.

[DevilBeast]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Laurencio wrote...

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
Was that even an AI? Hackett described it as a malfunctioning VI. Unless we are assuming that Hackett was BSing us to cover up what happened, then it wasn't self-aware - destroying it wouldn't be any different from deactivating an Avina on the Citadel.

The Hanibal AI is an early version of EDI

So yeah, Hackett was BSing you.

Did the "jump" to becoming an AI happen before or after Cerberus made modifications? I don't remember the vids from the Cerberus base that well - I'm willing to be proven wrong on this one - but I don't recall it specifying that it was already an AI at the time that Hackett sent Shepard in there to shut it down.

Someone here posted earlier what the binary code the Luna V.I. (maybe A.I.) displays right before it shuts down translates to.

01001000
01000101
01001100
01010000

= HELP

That doesn´t seem like something a V.I. which shouldn´t have any understanding of self-preservation would do.

[Raiil]

EDI flatly states that she became aware and that she was being shut down as a result. She evolved in a manner similar to the Geth, although not exactly the same. She cries out for help at the end via the binary. That seems pretty sentient/AI to me, at least, and seems to be consistent within lore.

[FlyingSquirrel]

moater boat wrote...
OP here.
Veteran AND a history buff. That's exactly why I know that killing 99.83% of an enemy population is just insane.
Even historical events like the Siege of Jerusalem don't even come close to that number. Even the battle of Masada, where the losing side went on to committ mass suicide had over 4 times as many survivors proportionately.  (0.7% survived Masada and 0.17% survived the morning war)

I don't doubt these facts. But given the generally sympathetic portrayal of Legion and of similarly-minded geth, I tend to think that may just be a plot hole or continuity error. Maybe I'm wrong and Bioware was subtly dropping hints meant to make us more skeptical of the geth, but if they were, there's no real consequence to it that I can discern.

[Jat371]

Valentia X wrote...

EDI flatly states that she became aware and that she was being shut down as a result. She evolved in a manner similar to the Geth, although not exactly the same. She cries out for help at the end via the binary. That seems pretty sentient/AI to me, at least, and seems to be consistent within lore.

I agree with you and canonically the Luna VI was actually an AI but Shepard was told it was a VI so he wouldn't have known any better. As someone said before it would be the equivalent to shutting down an Avina (in his mind).

[Dinoman666]

 This is how I see the whole Geth/Quarian debacle:

The Geth, when they first "woke up" (as Legion puts it), were evidently not significantly more intelligent. This is evident during the consensus mission, when Legion/VI says that the Geth did not pursue the fleeing Quarians because, in their infancy, they did not understand the potential outcomes of this decision. Essentially, the Quarians were no longer attacking, and were doing the exact opposite, so why bother chasing?

The Geth, at the time, despite being sentient, were acting purely on a fight-or-flight response. Self-preservation and self-defense. Organics do this too, so it's nothing unusual. However, the Geth were, again, in their infancy. At first, they did not resist. They only wished to understand why their creators were suddenly attacking for, what they deemed, was no apparent reason. They had nowhere to run to, and peace was clearly not an option, so they did the only thing they could: fight back. As synthetics, they could fight back with far more effectiveness as well. Did they overdo it? More than likely, hell yes they did. Did they know any other way? Hell no they didn't.

Keep in mind, I am in no way supporting the Geth's actions. I do not support the extreme to which they fought back, but I understand WHY. The Quarians started the war out of an instinctive fear of their former slaves rebelling. Perfectly understandable, but they did not try to seek another solution. They deemed destruction to be the only outcome, and it cost them dearly. They did not learn from this, and attempted it again (at the worst possible time, I might add). This also (depending on your choices) can cost them dearly in the form of near-extinction.

In short, "two wrongs don't make a right." The Geth did wrong, and so did the Quarians. They both attempted genocide, and it's unforgivable from either angle's view. Both sides are at fault here. That is why I was fully in support of mutual peace. Both groups needed to make amends in my opinion, and be, at the very least, equals, if not friends. Obviously, this rift between the groups will take a long time to heal (and I believe the Geth are significanlty more open to the idea than the Quarians), but it was possible, as is evident by the decision in ME3. Does this mean the peace will last? Who knows? But wars break out between former allies all the time in history. This would be no different. It's at least worth a try, right?

Modifié par Dinoman666, 16 avril 2012 - 08:49 .

[moater boat]

Axialbloom wrote...

1. You have no idea how many Quarians there were to begin with.
2. The Quarians fought each other over Geth rights, so you have no idea how many of their own people they killed.
3. You have no idea what the age make-up of those who fled was.

So be quiet, little troll.

1. Wrong
2. EXACTLY! There is no way know that the quarians killed themselves. In fact it is pretty much an absurd proposition. We don't know who killed how many. All we know is that the Geth did a lot of killing, and didn't make any effort to restrict themselves.
3. Are you suggesting that all the babies survived and escaped on the ships? Even if we go so far as to say that most of the 17 million who escaped were kids, that still means billions of kids were killed on Rannoch.

Math, it can really ruin your argument if you don't understand it.

[IanPolaris]

Jat371 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

EDI flatly states that she became aware and that she was being shut down as a result. She evolved in a manner similar to the Geth, although not exactly the same. She cries out for help at the end via the binary. That seems pretty sentient/AI to me, at least, and seems to be consistent within lore.

I agree with you and canonically the Luna VI was actually an AI but Shepard was told it was a VI so he wouldn't have known any better. As someone said before it would be the equivalent to shutting down an Avina (in his mind).

This.  Shepard can (and my shepard does) challenge Hackett on the issue of AI and Hackett blusters and flat out lies to Shepard.  Given everything Shepard knows at the time, he (or she) thinks that Luna base has a VI with a deadly IFF malfunction that has to be shut down.  He (or She) only sees "Help" in binary AFTER killing the AI and by then it's too late.  EDI herself doesn't hold it against Shepard even if Shepard expresses an open distrust for AI at the start of ME2.  She even says Shepard's distrust is "logical" but assures Shepard that she is not hostile.

-Polaris

[moater boat]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

moater boat wrote...

How do I know they killed quarian babies? After the Morning war there were only 17 million quarians left alive. I don't know how many there were to begin with, but it stands to reason that there were at least several billion. That means that only a fraction of a percent of all the Quarians survived. The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.

Less than a fraction. 10 billion quarians were alive prior to the morning war. about 0.17% survived. Think about that. Less than 20% of 1% survived. They were exterminated. The only way to get those kind of kill numbers is to go house by house, block by block, cave by cave, and hunt down and kill every walking quarian. Such a kill rate would bring a tear to Harby's eye.

Did you see Han'Gerrel's charge at the Geth if you supported the Geth with no peace? The Qurians recklessly threw themselves into enemy fire. I bet that's what they did in the war too, They even killed their own people to get at the Geth.

The Geth had a right as sentient beings to defend themselves, that's all they did, play defence. it was Qurian racism and stubborness that made them dig their own graves.

There is no reason to assume that the tactics used by Han'Gerrel are anything like the tactics used in the Morning War. That's like saying the tactics used during America's war for independence would be like those used in Iraq.

[moater boat]

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

Oh look! More accusations of racism!
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.
The slaves were living humans, the Geth weren't really alive until they got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. This is very clearly explained. It is CANON.