1392 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

moater boat wrote...

There is no reason to assume that the tactics used by Han'Gerrel are anything like the tactics used in the Morning War. That's like saying the tactics used during America's war for independence would be like those used in Iraq.

We can easily infer that they were similiar though.  We know that the Quarians never once tried for peace if they believed they had the upper hand.  We also know that the Quarian conclave went along with Han'Gerel and Admiral Xen.  If they had not, the Quarians would have gone to war anyway (admiralty override) but the Admirals would have been forced to step down.  Koris tells you that he is speaking for a minority of the Quarians and most that see it his way are in the CIvilian fleet.   Pretty much every time we see the Quarians in action, they don't hesitate to blur the line between civilian and military and Quarian civilians are shown to be very much armed combatants.

In short the Quarians fight war in a far more total and brutal fashion than humans do.

-Polaris

[Jat371]

moater boat wrote...
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.

You've insulted posters throughout all 33 pages, so I suppose you're not doing very well.

[moater boat]

General User wrote...

The only weapons destructive enough to completely depopulate a planet of billions of sentients are also so destructive that their use would PERMANENTLY render the planet uninhabitable. That clearly was not the case. Legion in fact makes the opposite assertion in ME2.

The idea that collateral damage during the Morning War was responsible for the depopulation of Rannoch (and the other quarian worlds too, btw), simply does not hold water. Only a deliberate campaign of extermination can account for what happened to the quarians.

This. Extermination is the only possible explanation.

[lonedude73]

moater boat wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

moater boat wrote...

How do I know they killed quarian babies? After the Morning war there were only 17 million quarians left alive. I don't know how many there were to begin with, but it stands to reason that there were at least several billion. That means that only a fraction of a percent of all the Quarians survived. The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.

Less than a fraction. 10 billion quarians were alive prior to the morning war. about 0.17% survived. Think about that. Less than 20% of 1% survived. They were exterminated. The only way to get those kind of kill numbers is to go house by house, block by block, cave by cave, and hunt down and kill every walking quarian. Such a kill rate would bring a tear to Harby's eye.

Did you see Han'Gerrel's charge at the Geth if you supported the Geth with no peace? The Qurians recklessly threw themselves into enemy fire. I bet that's what they did in the war too, They even killed their own people to get at the Geth.

The Geth had a right as sentient beings to defend themselves, that's all they did, play defence. it was Qurian racism and stubborness that made them dig their own graves.

There is no reason to assume that the tactics used by Han'Gerrel are anything like the tactics used in the Morning War. That's like saying the tactics used during America's war for independence would be like those used in Iraq.

Then why didn't the quarians lay there wepons down in shame and admit that the geth beat theme.

[Fayfel]

What would happen to a modern city if it lost access to food/power/communications/supplies/etc and it's inhabitants believed they were surrounded by a hostile force?

[DevilBeast]

moater boat wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

Oh look! More accusations of racism!
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.
The slaves were living humans, the Geth weren't really alive until they got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. This is very clearly explained. It is CANON.

It was never my intention to insult you personally, I only pointed out the similarities between that sentence and what people used as arguments against the slave rebellions back in the day.

But now that you have brought it up: Do you perceive every argument in here that goes against your opinon as "insulting"?? Ever wondered if some people might find parts of your OP insulting??

 

[lonedude73]

moater boat wrote...

General User wrote...

The only weapons destructive enough to completely depopulate a planet of billions of sentients are also so destructive that their use would PERMANENTLY render the planet uninhabitable. That clearly was not the case. Legion in fact makes the opposite assertion in ME2.

The idea that collateral damage during the Morning War was responsible for the depopulation of Rannoch (and the other quarian worlds too, btw), simply does not hold water. Only a deliberate campaign of extermination can account for what happened to the quarians.

This. Extermination is the only possible explanation.

is subimission not preferable to extermination?

[Dinoman666]

moater boat wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

Oh look! More accusations of racism!
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.
The slaves were living humans, the Geth weren't really alive until they got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. This is very clearly explained. It is CANON.

The Geth were never "ordered" to shut down; they were forcibly shut down. Some actually did comply, IIRC.

On top of that, nowhere does it state that anyone ever entered the Perseus Veil after the Morning War. No one did; they were too scared of the Geth. Ships may venture NEAR it, but never into it. The one exception was the freighter that found the Reaper artifact and were indoctrinated, compelled to fly their ship into the Veil and run right into Heretic Geth that turned them into Husks.

This brings me to another point in addition to what I said in my previous post: the Heretics. They are the ONLY, the ONLY, Geth who attack organics without initial provocation ANYWHERE in the ME universe, and that's because they listen to the Reapers (not exactly an improvement over the Quarians, IMO).

As for the intelligence of the Geth, that's a muddy issue. They are clearly sentient before the Reaper code (Legion is obvious evidence of this), but only when their individual runtimes are networked together, increasing each Geth's intelligence to the level of a sapient being. The Reaper code (without the Reapers control) only gives the Geth true individuality and independence. They were ALREADY sentient before the Reapers arrived, but the attack on the Dyson Sphere (which had many many programs inside it) dumbed the Geth down in the initial strike (hence why the Geth reverted back to self-preservation, and allied with the Reapers for the sole purpose of survival).

[cndman]

ALL of you are missing the point. There are no children in the mass effect universe. 3 games, hundreds of planets, and a hundred hours of gameplay, and the only child we ever saw was the vent boy. and we all know he wasn't real. obviously in the future people are grown in tanks and/or born as adults.

everything you have said has been rendered invalid. /thread

[moater boat]

cerberus1701 wrote...

Yes. Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

Only for defense though.

Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

But you're never going to use it.

Yeah. Right.

What do you not understand about the civilian fleet HIDING from the Geth on the other side of the star? It was IN THE GAME! We were literally shown the battle happening over here with the military forces, and the civilian forces staying far away. Why are you trying to pretend that didn't happen?

[cerberus1701]

moater boat wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

Oh look! More accusations of racism!
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.
The slaves were living humans, the Geth weren't really alive until they got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. This is very clearly explained. It is CANON.

No, it isn't true at all that they "weren't really alive until they got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. This is very clearly explained. It is CANON."

Were you playing in action mode? Hmm? Legion actually shows us directly that the Geth WERE sentient, but only when they were networked in significant numbers (i.e. thousands to millions) He shows specifically that the Reaper code allowed a single Geth to supass that of 10 networked Geth.

With the code one Geth alone was a fully-actualized AI when before they required mass networking to achieve the same level.

Please stop skipping cutscenes if you're going to try commenting on the game content.

Modifié par cerberus1701, 16 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[moater boat]

jijeebo wrote...

moater boat wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Quarians made coexistance with the Geth impossible on ANY of their planets and as a result 99%+ died. 

See, tha'ts normally not possible.

Hitler also made it pretty hard to coexist with the Allies. They invaded and broke his army and when they weren't capable of war they occupied Germany.

Someone took deliberate action to kill 99% of the quarians, and it probably wasn't the quarians.

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. You can't have 99.83% of all quarians dying without it being an intentional, methodical genocide. It is literally the ONLY possible explanation.

There's another term for it.... Survival.

The quarians were commiting genocide, NOT the geth.

As soon as the quarians fled the geth stopped attacking, that's not genocidal... Chasing them into space and destroying the remainder of the ships would have been genocidal.

And had it been the geth that fled... I bet you that would've been what happened.

Survival? I'm sure those quarian babies were a real threat. Way to miss the point of the entire thread.

[IanPolaris]

moater boat wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Yes. Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

Only for defense though.

Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

But you're never going to use it.

Yeah. Right.

What do you not understand about the civilian fleet HIDING from the Geth on the other side of the star? It was IN THE GAME! We were literally shown the battle happening over here with the military forces, and the civilian forces staying far away. Why are you trying to pretend that didn't happen?

You put a gun on a schoolbus and the schoolbus is a miltary target.  No getting around this.  Also you (Shep) give the Quarian fleet a golden opportunity to allow the Civilian fleet to retreat through the Mass Relay which THEY AGREE TO and then go back on their word to the extent of firing on the dreadnaught you are IN! 

-Polaris

[sorentoft]

Obviously it was the Quarians dragging their insane struggle to destroy the Geth to such lengths that the Geth had no choice but to annihilate them. And most likely the Quarians committed genocide on all sympathizers - hence you do not see any. I don't blame them for the genocide, it is a natural choice in a time of desperation - however I do blame them for not calling for Turian and/or Council aid sooner to nuke the Geth from orbit. Shamefur dispray.

[cerberus1701]

moater boat wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Yes. Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

Only for defense though.

Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

But you're never going to use it.

Yeah. Right.

What do you not understand about the civilian fleet HIDING from the Geth on the other side of the star? It was IN THE GAME! We were literally shown the battle happening over here with the military forces, and the civilian forces staying far away. Why are you trying to pretend that didn't happen?

The minute you arm the ship with military guns, it becomes a military target.

And the idea that they were "hiding" with that much firepower is nonsense. There are these things in the game called mass relays. If you do not want and never intend to use ships in the battle....remove them. Send them to another system entirely.

The fact that they are armed as they are and anywhere near the battle suggests that they are there to be used.

Therefore they are legitimate targets.

[moater boat]

Naerivar wrote...

And would you please explain to me why killing babies is any worse than killing an unarmed civilian?

I mean, I am human (though pretty analytical), but I can see little reason why killing a baby is worse than killing an adult. Especially in wartime. If I can't comprehend it, how do you expect a newly formed geth collective whose first real interaction with an organic specie was based on Slaving and later on attempted genocide?

No, I won't explain why killing babies is worse than killing an unarmed civilian. Simply because it is something almost everyone can agree on.

Furthermore, the indesputable fact that the Geth must have killed innocents, children or otherwise, is important because it ellicits an emotional response in us, and the fact that it wouldn't cause an emotional response in Geth is EXACTLY WHAT MAKES THEM A THREAT. The whole point of this thread is to demonstrate that by our standards, the Geth are monsters.

[cerberus1701]

IanPolaris wrote...

moater boat wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

Yes. Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

Only for defense though.

Strap enough guns on it so that one liveiship actually rivals a military dreadnaught.

But you're never going to use it.

Yeah. Right.

What do you not understand about the civilian fleet HIDING from the Geth on the other side of the star? It was IN THE GAME! We were literally shown the battle happening over here with the military forces, and the civilian forces staying far away. Why are you trying to pretend that didn't happen?

You put a gun on a schoolbus and the schoolbus is a miltary target.  No getting around this.  Also you (Shep) give the Quarian fleet a golden opportunity to allow the Civilian fleet to retreat through the Mass Relay which THEY AGREE TO and then go back on their word to the extent of firing on the dreadnaught you are IN! 

-Polaris

But, but... the situation changed as the good Admiral explained.

[moater boat]

IanPolaris wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

War isn't for the faint of heart OP.

I know
Firsthand
That's why I know that killing 99.83% of a population isn't war. It's genocide.

Do me a favor and actually look up the UN definition of genocide please.

-Polaris

Just did. Fail to see why you are so hung up on it. As far as I can tell, this definitely qualifies. Can you explain what you are trying to say, because I honestly don't get it.

[Starshadow2010]

Thank you BSN, now i know what exacly i don't like about the Geth. Geth apologists.
Best ridiculous theories ever made, in order to make the outcome of Morning War and own decisions to let the Quarians die look just.
As to topicstarter's question - the Geth didn't kill a single Quarian (child or not). Quarians did that themselves, in order to make the Geth look bad. Yeah, i know, sounds stupid, but the Geth are awesome, and that makes Quarians guilty.

[EnerPrime]

I really don't get why people try to defend the main Geth from their responsibility for the Heretics. Because the fact is the Geth knew the Heretics were out there helping Nazara try to wipe out all spacefaring organic life. And there is no excuse for sitting by and allowing multiple genocides to occur. "Not my problem" is never applicable when it comes to the Reapers. When the Geth just let the Heretics do their thing, the pretty much declared that mass genocide is perfectly okay with them as long as you leave them alone.

That pretty much destroys any moral high ground the Geth could ever have right there.

[IanPolaris]

moater boat wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

War isn't for the faint of heart OP.

I know
Firsthand
That's why I know that killing 99.83% of a population isn't war. It's genocide.

Do me a favor and actually look up the UN definition of genocide please.

-Polaris

Just did. Fail to see why you are so hung up on it. As far as I can tell, this definitely qualifies. Can you explain what you are trying to say, because I honestly don't get it.

No it doesn't.  The fact that the Geth were willing to let the Quarians go at the end is prime evidence that the Geth did not seek the eradictation or cultural elimination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.  The bar for genocide is actually very high and the Geth come nowhere close to meeting it.

The Quarians DO have a policy of exterminating beings just because they are Geth and this IS genocide under the UN definition.

-Polaris

[Dinoman666]

moater boat wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

And would you please explain to me why killing babies is any worse than killing an unarmed civilian?

I mean, I am human (though pretty analytical), but I can see little reason why killing a baby is worse than killing an adult. Especially in wartime. If I can't comprehend it, how do you expect a newly formed geth collective whose first real interaction with an organic specie was based on Slaving and later on attempted genocide?

No, I won't explain why killing babies is worse than killing an unarmed civilian. Simply because it is something almost everyone can agree on.

Furthermore, the indesputable fact that the Geth must have killed innocents, children or otherwise, is important because it ellicits an emotional response in us, and the fact that it wouldn't cause an emotional response in Geth is EXACTLY WHAT MAKES THEM A THREAT. The whole point of this thread is to demonstrate that by our standards, the Geth are monsters.

At the time they displayed no emotion. I reiterate; the Geth were in their INFANCY. They did not understand the consequences of their actions, and whose to say that they didn't have an emotional response? Can you read their minds? No, of course not, because they are fictional characters. The Morning War is never personally witnessed, except in the consensus, and so it is impossible to know the full story unless the Geth are completely unbiased (that would never happen with the Quarians, who clearly ar heavily biased).  

Legion says, and I quote, "We regret the deaths of the creators, but we see no alternative."

That, in a nutshell, was most likely what the Geth thought during the Morning War.

In my opinion, the Geth are a fully sentient race. Indeed, the ME universe makes them out to be exactly this. Yes, they are made of metal, not flesh, but that doesn't mean they're as worthless as a bunch of glorified fax machines. In my opinion, you ARE being racist towards the Geth, OP, by thinking the Quarians are pure, goldhearted souls just because they got the short end of the stick at the end of the war.

War is an ugly business, especially on a scale like that of the Morning War. If you REALLY think the Geth killed children because they just didn't care, then you haven't been looking deep enough into this. The Geth weren't the only ones who did terrible things, you know. Of course, you don't consider the Geth to be worthy of free will and choice, so why bother?

I do not support either the Geth or the Quarians' decisions in the Morning War OR the Reaper War. But when they made peace, I immediately forgave them, because they all proved they could fix their past mistakes and focus on the present. They DID seek alternatives (admittedly, I (Shep) had to help), and they DID make peace.