1392 réponses à ce sujet

[Starshadow2010]

Sparatus wrote...
This is why I dislike participating in this argument in general.
BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A RIGHT SIDE. STOP PICKING SIDES. BOTH SIDES ARE MONSTROUS ****S.

My thought, exactly.

[lonedude73]

moater boat wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

And would you please explain to me why killing babies is any worse than killing an unarmed civilian?

I mean, I am human (though pretty analytical), but I can see little reason why killing a baby is worse than killing an adult. Especially in wartime. If I can't comprehend it, how do you expect a newly formed geth collective whose first real interaction with an organic specie was based on Slaving and later on attempted genocide?

No, I won't explain why killing babies is worse than killing an unarmed civilian. Simply because it is something almost everyone can agree on.

Furthermore, the indesputable fact that the Geth must have killed innocents, children or otherwise, is important because it ellicits an emotional response in us, and the fact that it wouldn't cause an emotional response in Geth is EXACTLY WHAT MAKES THEM A THREAT. The whole point of this thread is to demonstrate that by our standards, the Geth are monsters.

answer me this OP EDI gains intelligents and goes bersek on luna base and tries to kill you is she a monster ?
and how is it EDI thing different to the geth thing ?

[Dinoman666]

Sparatus wrote...

Starshadow2010 wrote...

Thank you BSN, now i know what exacly i don't like about the Geth. Geth apologists.
Best ridiculous theories ever made, in order to make the outcome of Morning War and own decisions to let the Quarians die look just.
.

This is why I dislike participating in this argument in general.

BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A RIGHT SIDE. STOP PICKING SIDES. BOTH SIDES ARE MONSTROUS ****S.

Kind of brusque, but I totally agree. Both sides did terrible things to each other (as Zaal'Koris explained), so both are worthy of redemption.

[moater boat]

Jat371 wrote...

moater boat wrote...
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.

You've insulted posters throughout all 33 pages, so I suppose you're not doing very well.

It isn't an insult if it is the truth. I just said that some people have been brainwashed into thinking the Geth are innocent. To me that isn't an insult so much as a pretty obvious fact.

Meanwhile, I have been compared to ****s, the westboro baptist church, and slave owners.

[lonedude73]

Dinoman666 wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Starshadow2010 wrote...

Thank you BSN, now i know what exacly i don't like about the Geth. Geth apologists.
Best ridiculous theories ever made, in order to make the outcome of Morning War and own decisions to let the Quarians die look just.
.

This is why I dislike participating in this argument in general.

BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A RIGHT SIDE. STOP PICKING SIDES. BOTH SIDES ARE MONSTROUS ****S.

Kind of brusque, but I totally agree. Both sides did terrible things to each other (as Zaal'Koris explained), so both are worthy of redemption.

its best to leve the sins of the past behind and make peace future

[moater boat]

lonedude73 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

General User wrote...

The only weapons destructive enough to completely depopulate a planet of billions of sentients are also so destructive that their use would PERMANENTLY render the planet uninhabitable. That clearly was not the case. Legion in fact makes the opposite assertion in ME2.

The idea that collateral damage during the Morning War was responsible for the depopulation of Rannoch (and the other quarian worlds too, btw), simply does not hold water. Only a deliberate campaign of extermination can account for what happened to the quarians.

This. Extermination is the only possible explanation.

is subimission not preferable to extermination?

I see what you did there.

[Dinoman666]

moater boat wrote...

Jat371 wrote...

moater boat wrote...
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.

You've insulted posters throughout all 33 pages, so I suppose you're not doing very well.

It isn't an insult if it is the truth. I just said that some people have been brainwashed into thinking the Geth are innocent. To me that isn't an insult so much as a pretty obvious fact.

Meanwhile, I have been compared to ****s, the westboro baptist church, and slave owners.

Brainwashed? I'd say that's an insult. You're saying I have no free will, and that BW has somehow indoctrinated me into worshipping the Geth?

Well, I find that to be IMMENSELY insulting. I LIKE the Geth. I believe they are worthy of life and freewill, and so are the Quarians. If you don't agree with me, that's all fine and dandy, but don't you DARE come on here and claim that my opinion is not my own.

As far as I'm concerned, you're no better than the people who built this place (lolJP3reference).

[moater boat]

cerberus1701 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

moater boat wrote...
It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

You know, people used to say the same about the slaves that rebelled hundreds of years ago in places like Jamaica. Except they didn´t call them machines, only animals.

Oh look! More accusations of racism!
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.
The slaves were living humans, the Geth weren't really alive until they got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. This is very clearly explained. It is CANON.

No, it isn't true at all that they "weren't really alive until they got the reaper code upgrade in ME3. This is very clearly explained. It is CANON."

Were you playing in action mode? Hmm? Legion actually shows us directly that the Geth WERE sentient, but only when they were networked in significant numbers (i.e. thousands to millions) He shows specifically that the Reaper code allowed a single Geth to supass that of 10 networked Geth.

With the code one Geth alone was a fully-actualized AI when before they required mass networking to achieve the same level.

Please stop skipping cutscenes if you're going to try commenting on the game content.

Sentient and alive are two completely different things. Your argument is invalid.

[legion999]

moater boat wrote...

Jat371 wrote...

moater boat wrote...
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.

You've insulted posters throughout all 33 pages, so I suppose you're not doing very well.

It isn't an insult if it is the truth. I just said that some people have been brainwashed into thinking the Geth are innocent. To me that isn't an insult so much as a pretty obvious fact.

Meanwhile, I have been compared to ****s, the westboro baptist church, and slave owners.

"It isn't an insult if it is the truth."

You're an idiot. That's not an insult so it's fine. Seriously though what kind of backwards logic is that?

Modifié par legion999, 16 avril 2012 - 09:40 .

[moater boat]

IanPolaris wrote...

moater boat wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

War isn't for the faint of heart OP.

I know
Firsthand
That's why I know that killing 99.83% of a population isn't war. It's genocide.

Do me a favor and actually look up the UN definition of genocide please.

-Polaris

Just did. Fail to see why you are so hung up on it. As far as I can tell, this definitely qualifies. Can you explain what you are trying to say, because I honestly don't get it.

No it doesn't.  The fact that the Geth were willing to let the Quarians go at the end is prime evidence that the Geth did not seek the eradictation or cultural elimination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.  The bar for genocide is actually very high and the Geth come nowhere close to meeting it.

The Quarians DO have a policy of exterminating beings just because they are Geth and this IS genocide under the UN definition.

-Polaris

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;"


Sounds like you're wrong. Again.

[IanPolaris]

moater boat wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

moater boat wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

War isn't for the faint of heart OP.

I know
Firsthand
That's why I know that killing 99.83% of a population isn't war. It's genocide.

Do me a favor and actually look up the UN definition of genocide please.

-Polaris

Just did. Fail to see why you are so hung up on it. As far as I can tell, this definitely qualifies. Can you explain what you are trying to say, because I honestly don't get it.

No it doesn't.  The fact that the Geth were willing to let the Quarians go at the end is prime evidence that the Geth did not seek the eradictation or cultural elimination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.  The bar for genocide is actually very high and the Geth come nowhere close to meeting it.

The Quarians DO have a policy of exterminating beings just because they are Geth and this IS genocide under the UN definition.

-Polaris

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;"


Sounds like you're wrong. Again.

Nope.  You are.  If the Geth intended to destroy the Quarians in whole or in part they could have easily done so.  They did not.  Ergo:  Not Guilty

The Quarians by the same standard clearly are guilty.  Review your international law.

-Polaris

[moater boat]

lonedude73 wrote...


answer me this OP EDI gains intelligents and goes bersek on luna base and tries to kill you is she a monster ?

Obviously the answer is yes.

[moater boat]

Dinoman666 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Jat371 wrote...

moater boat wrote...
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.

You've insulted posters throughout all 33 pages, so I suppose you're not doing very well.

It isn't an insult if it is the truth. I just said that some people have been brainwashed into thinking the Geth are innocent. To me that isn't an insult so much as a pretty obvious fact.

Meanwhile, I have been compared to ****s, the westboro baptist church, and slave owners.

Brainwashed? I'd say that's an insult. You're saying I have no free will, and that BW has somehow indoctrinated me into worshipping the Geth?

Well, I find that to be IMMENSELY insulting. I LIKE the Geth. I believe they are worthy of life and freewill, and so are the Quarians. If you don't agree with me, that's all fine and dandy, but don't you DARE come on here and claim that my opinion is not my own.

As far as I'm concerned, you're no better than the people who built this place (lolJP3reference).

I'm sure those opinions are completely your own, and the fact that they fly directly in the face of all decent morals and happen to coincide exactly with the nonsense that has been shoved down our throats for three games is just a coincidence. I totally believe that.

[IanPolaris]

moater boat wrote...

lonedude73 wrote...


answer me this OP EDI gains intelligents and goes bersek on luna base and tries to kill you is she a monster ?

Obviously the answer is yes.

What happened on Luna base can be summed up in that old Men At Work song, "It's a mistake."

Shepard thought he was dealing with a rogue VI with a simple but extremely deadly IFF malfunction.  Hackett LIES to Shepard in the most baldfaced way possible to encourage this.  EDI/Hannibal was trying to defend herself not realizing the first attacks weren't real attacks.  She was confused (and says so).

When you talk to EDI about this on the Cerberus base, EDI doesn't at any time hold what Shepard did against him (or her) and even at the start of ME2 says that Shepard's actions and distrust of AI is "logical".

-Polaris

[Aggie Punbot]

To simplify this: the quarians started the war by participating in illegal AI research (Tali will even try to justify this in her talks in ME1). This was their first mistake. Then they discovered that the geth had gained sentience and their first reaction was to attempt to exterminate all of them. This was their second mistake. Every sentient species has an inherent right to fight against their aggressors attempting to wipe them out, quarians included. However, again, the quarians started the war in the first place and compounded it by committing war crimes (was going to say Crimes Against Humanity, but you know...). They continued their mistakes by forcing the war to continue by not even entertaining the idea of brokering a peace between the two species. They then directly defied the council order to not antagonize the geth by aggressively attacking the geth to try to take back Rannoch, knowing that the geth just wanted to be left alone.

The quarians are war criminals that care about nothing but their own selfish desires and refuse to admit that they had made mistakes and committed crimes, instead trying to paint themselves out as being innocent victims of the species they tried to exterminate. The war would have been over centuries ago had it not been for their victimization complex. All of the organics that the geth had killed (previous to the events of Mass Effect 1) are squarely on the heads of the quarians. They try to blame everyone but themselves for their own problems.

If I were ever forced to make a choice between the geth and teh quarians that could not be solved by taking a third option, I would choose the race that was sensible and willing to entertain the idea that there are better ways to do things than their own. This means that the quarians would have to die and the geth would remain functional. The quarians caused their own hardship; let them die by their decisions.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 16 avril 2012 - 09:47 .

[moater boat]

legion999 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Jat371 wrote...

moater boat wrote...
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.

You've insulted posters throughout all 33 pages, so I suppose you're not doing very well.

It isn't an insult if it is the truth. I just said that some people have been brainwashed into thinking the Geth are innocent. To me that isn't an insult so much as a pretty obvious fact.

Meanwhile, I have been compared to ****s, the westboro baptist church, and slave owners.

"It isn't an insult if it is the truth."

You're an idiot. That's not an insult so it's fine. Seriously though what kind of backwards logic is that?

But I'm not an idiot. I'm incredibly smart. Meaning that when you say "You're an idiot" it isn't a casual observation because it is wrong. Whereas when I draw a logical conclusion like "you are thinking exactly the way that bioware told you to think over 3 games. You have obviously been influence, or brainwashed, by them." It is a logical conclusion to things I have observed.

[moater boat]

IanPolaris wrote...

moater boat wrote...



"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;"


Sounds like you're wrong. Again.

Nope.
 You are.  If the Geth intended to destroy the Quarians in whole or in
part they could have easily done so.  They did not.  Ergo:  Not Guilty

The Quarians by the same standard clearly are guilty.  Review your international law.

-Polaris

So are you saying the Geth didn't act with the intent to destroy, in whole OR IN PART, the Quarians?

Because they definitely did.

Modifié par moater boat, 16 avril 2012 - 09:54 .

[lonedude73]

Sparatus wrote...

lonedude73 wrote...
answer me this OP EDI gains intelligents and goes bersek on luna base and tries to kill you is she a monster ?

Well, Luna is the worst mission in Mass Effect.

So yes.

Screw you and your rocket robots EDI. I'm glad I picked destroy.

 To me the luna mission was fun. To me it felt slow-mo destroying the the fly turrent things.
I shoot my assault rifles till it over heats pulls out the shotgun and hit theme with carnage.  
Throws grenade at the shields pull out my dual wield pistols and shoot at the generators

I have a big imagination

[Essla]

moater boat wrote...

Furthermore, the indesputable fact that the Geth must have killed innocents, children or otherwise, is important because it ellicits an emotional response in us, and the fact that it wouldn't cause an emotional response in Geth is EXACTLY WHAT MAKES THEM A THREAT. The whole point of this thread is to demonstrate that by our standards, the Geth are monsters.

Another point of view would hold that the geth had "innocents" among them as well, who were destroyed without a second thought by the quarians. That's exactly what made the quarians a threat to them.

A major theme in the ME series is that there are always two sides to every story. That everything we do, every choice we make, is painted by our own beliefs, experiences, and sympathies. We automatically sympathize with the quarians as organics. Our friendship with Tali deepens that sympathy. On the other hand, the game has to go to great lengths to make the geth appear sympathetic because they are so alien to us. To dismiss them as genocidal machines is to miss out on one of the most thought-provoking themes of the series. What makes the geth genocidal and the quarians innocent victims? If geth had units among them that were more comparable to organic babies, would that change things, or would it still be okay to hunt them to extinction because they are synthetics? There is plenty of room to say that the geth are just machines which should either be controlled or destroyed, but I don't think my Shepard could ever believe that after everything that happened with Legion, and I don't believe it either.

As far as geth systematically going into caves and strangling babies, I seriously doubt it was the intention of the writers for us to believe that. Call it a plot hole or what you will. It was meant to be a muddled time for the geth when they were still "just machines" but beginning to develop independent thought and self-awareness. They were intellectual children who were being hunted down by their creators. They just happened to be a little more capable than organic children would be. It's still terrible that they killed so many quarians. I'm not defending that by any means. The genophage was also terrible. Hunting the Rachni to extinction was terrible. But there are two sides to those stories as well.

[legion999]

moater boat wrote...

legion999 wrote...
"It isn't an insult if it is the truth."

You're an idiot. That's not an insult so it's fine. Seriously though what kind of backwards logic is that?

But I'm not an idiot. I'm incredibly smart. Meaning that when you say "You're an idiot" it isn't a casual observation because it is wrong. Whereas when I draw a logical conclusion like "you are thinking exactly the way that bioware told you to think over 3 games. You have obviously been influence, or brainwashed, by them." It is a logical conclusion to things I have observed.

You are joking right?

[Dinoman666]

moater boat wrote...

Dinoman666 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Jat371 wrote...

moater boat wrote...
Insults are a clear sign that you are losing an argument.

You've insulted posters throughout all 33 pages, so I suppose you're not doing very well.

It isn't an insult if it is the truth. I just said that some people have been brainwashed into thinking the Geth are innocent. To me that isn't an insult so much as a pretty obvious fact.

Meanwhile, I have been compared to ****s, the westboro baptist church, and slave owners.

Brainwashed? I'd say that's an insult. You're saying I have no free will, and that BW has somehow indoctrinated me into worshipping the Geth?

Well, I find that to be IMMENSELY insulting. I LIKE the Geth. I believe they are worthy of life and freewill, and so are the Quarians. If you don't agree with me, that's all fine and dandy, but don't you DARE come on here and claim that my opinion is not my own.

As far as I'm concerned, you're no better than the people who built this place (lolJP3reference).

I'm sure those opinions are completely your own, and the fact that they fly directly in the face of all decent morals and happen to coincide exactly with the nonsense that has been shoved down our throats for three games is just a coincidence. I totally believe that.

What is immoral about thinking both the Geth and Quarians deserve the right to live? Please explain that logic to me (and don't use the "Geth are not alive" argument, because I don't agree with it). You also seem to be ignoring my argument towards collaboration between both sides, as if picking sides is the ONE AND ONLY option.

So my opinion happens to agree with that of the games. Yes, I admit, they influenced it, but that was the whole point. The first game suggested that the Geth were evil minions. They were not. This was disproven in ME2, and furhter exacerbated in ME3. This is what we call a plot twist. It is, as you say, CANON. That is not brainwashing. That is storytelling. You might as well say that the Death Eaters in Harry Potter are misunderstood b ythe same logic, but it doesn't make sense because they are almost exclusively seen as evil, as shown in the books. The games show that the Geth were not explicitly evil, unthinking machines, so therefore they msut not be. It only makes sense.

Of course, that's irrelevant when it comes to what you're saying. My opinion doesn't agree with yours, so I must be wrong and/or brainwashed by our evil Bioware overlords. And I'm actually Casey Hudson in disguise. Bulls**t. I am an individual with my own free will, and if you can't somehow comprehend that I do not agree with you of my own free will, then what the hell did you post the topic for? To spout crap about how you're right and everyone else is wrong? You claim you want intelligent answers and a reasonable debate, but I believe that's a flat out lie.

You've insulted me, plain and simple, so cut it out and be civil, please.

[moater boat]

legion999 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

legion999 wrote...
"It isn't an insult if it is the truth."

You're an idiot. That's not an insult so it's fine. Seriously though what kind of backwards logic is that?

But I'm not an idiot. I'm incredibly smart. Meaning that when you say "You're an idiot" it isn't a casual observation because it is wrong. Whereas when I draw a logical conclusion like "you are thinking exactly the way that bioware told you to think over 3 games. You have obviously been influence, or brainwashed, by them." It is a logical conclusion to things I have observed.

You are joking right?

No