1392 réponses à ce sujet

[TryckSh0t]

The Geth were a Virtual Intelligence that started to become partially sentient. Not an A.I. programmed with artificial emotions. They were incapable of being "psychopathic", "xenophobic", or "backstabbing". Their existence was threatened, they responded, but the Geth do not possess the ability to hold back, because they were not programmed to do so. You are attempting to attach human emotions to a machine that is incapable of feeling or understanding such things.

[111987]

lordnyx1 wrote...

111987 wrote...

So, not sure if this has been discussed, but how would a pro-Geth supporter justify the Geth essentially stepping aside in ME1 to allow Sovereign and the Heretic Geth to try to commit a galaxy-wide genocide against organics?

Because that kind of goes against the idea discussed in this thread that the Geth are peaceful/blameless for everything.

Who would believe them? The galaxy thanks to the Quarian saw them as kill bots and even Shepard couldn't convince the council the reapers were real.

There are several ways they could have helped without just strolling into the Council Chambers. Here are a few examples.

1. Do not allow the Heretics to side with Sovereign.
2. Use indirect means of communicating the threat to organics (as in, have the evidence come from another source).
3. Oppose the Heretics militarily (i.e. as the Heretic Geth attack somewhere, the true Geth swoop in and help fight off the Heretics). This will at least allow the possibility of co-operation.
4. Send a unit like Legion to the Citadel and willingly allow its capture (with failsafes in mind, of course). When they interrogate it, they can at least be warned. When they realize Legion has intelligence, they won't immediately take it apart.

[Dinoman666]

111987 wrote...

lordnyx1 wrote...

111987 wrote...

So, not sure if this has been discussed, but how would a pro-Geth supporter justify the Geth essentially stepping aside in ME1 to allow Sovereign and the Heretic Geth to try to commit a galaxy-wide genocide against organics?

Because that kind of goes against the idea discussed in this thread that the Geth are peaceful/blameless for everything.

Who would believe them? The galaxy thanks to the Quarian saw them as kill bots and even Shepard couldn't convince the council the reapers were real.

There are several ways they could have helped without just strolling into the Council Chambers. Here are a few examples.

1. Do not allow the Heretics to side with Sovereign.
2. Use indirect means of communicating the threat to organics (as in, have the evidence come from another source).
3. Oppose the Heretics militarily (i.e. as the Heretic Geth attack somewhere, the true Geth swoop in and help fight off the Heretics). This will at least allow the possibility of co-operation.
4. Send a unit like Legion to the Citadel and willingly allow its capture (with failsafes in mind, of course). When they interrogate it, they can at least be warned. When they realize Legion has intelligence, they won't immediately take it apart.

Again, the Geth simply didn't come to any of these conclusions. They decided, by consensus, that the best strategy was to be non-committal. They didn't want to fight, so they didn't, and they didn't want to restrict the freedom fo the heretics, no matter how much they disagreed with them.

The right strategy? No, but it's what they did. It could've been much worse, and it could've been much better.

[111987]

Dinoman666 wrote...

111987 wrote...

lordnyx1 wrote...

111987 wrote...

So, not sure if this has been discussed, but how would a pro-Geth supporter justify the Geth essentially stepping aside in ME1 to allow Sovereign and the Heretic Geth to try to commit a galaxy-wide genocide against organics?

Because that kind of goes against the idea discussed in this thread that the Geth are peaceful/blameless for everything.

Who would believe them? The galaxy thanks to the Quarian saw them as kill bots and even Shepard couldn't convince the council the reapers were real.

There are several ways they could have helped without just strolling into the Council Chambers. Here are a few examples.

1. Do not allow the Heretics to side with Sovereign.
2. Use indirect means of communicating the threat to organics (as in, have the evidence come from another source).
3. Oppose the Heretics militarily (i.e. as the Heretic Geth attack somewhere, the true Geth swoop in and help fight off the Heretics). This will at least allow the possibility of co-operation.
4. Send a unit like Legion to the Citadel and willingly allow its capture (with failsafes in mind, of course). When they interrogate it, they can at least be warned. When they realize Legion has intelligence, they won't immediately take it apart.

Again, the Geth simply didn't come to any of these conclusions. They decided, by consensus, that the best strategy was to be non-committal. They didn't want to fight, so they didn't, and they didn't want to restrict the freedom fo the heretics, no matter how much they disagreed with them.

The right strategy? No, but it's what they did. It could've been much worse, and it could've been much better.

I agree with you. I was just trying to dispel the nothing that either side was blameless, as some people in this thread have suggested.

[Dinoman666]

Yeah, I feel like too many people forget that everyone in Mass Effect has some sort of flaw. That's the whole theme of ME3: working past differences and flaws and overcoming a seemingly impossible threat with teamwork and unity.

Modifié par Dinoman666, 17 avril 2012 - 01:30 .

[Karolus_V]

Dinoman666 wrote...

111987 wrote...

So, not sure if this has been discussed, but how would a pro-Geth supporter justify the Geth essentially stepping aside in ME1 to allow Sovereign and the Heretic Geth to try to commit a galaxy-wide genocide against organics?

Because that kind of goes against the idea discussed in this thread that the Geth are peaceful/blameless for everything.

The Geth are certainly not without blame. They've commited plenty of terrible atrocities. However, the apathy towards the Heretics was based mostly on self-determination. If the Heretics chose what they did, who were the other Geth to stop them? They didn't agree, but they understood the heretics' reasoning.

Unfortunately, they didn't seem to understand the consequences. Now, of course, the Geth would probably never have tried to help, because they would probably just scare the organic races into attacking them. They probably thought that it was best if the organics worked it out themselves. Again, the idea of self-determination. Not the greatest plan, but the Geth didn't really have much choice in the matter. They'd rather not cause any more trouble.

Even when the heretics attacked the true geth, they only sent Legion to investigate, and were honestly perplexed that the heretics were spying on them.

In short, the Geth made some mistakes. Doesn't make them monsters, just like the Quarians (mostly) aren't really monsters.

I think, that for the non heretic Geth, Geths attacking other Geths would be " unbelievable" , because they werent doing anything to harass or menace or stop the heretics from doing whatever they wanted. The spying probably was a good reality check for them.

--------------------
Returning to the "genocide", well, as I said , the Geth have probably BLOOD in their hands, but with age comes wisdom,so at the begining they fighted for survival, and tried the best to win.Doing whatever was necesary,as the Quarians where doing. I think is probable, that when they began the final ofensive, the consensus was more like "exterminate mode" but as that objective became closer to be real, they began to understand something along the lines " we are going to do what the creators were going to do with us" ,they understand now,that after fighting, first for survival, later they changed the objective, wanting to exterminate  the Quarians.And they , seeing now this was a very simplistic way, to ensure Geth survival,  so,as the Geth now more "mature",   the consensus changed again, begining to search other alternatives.So when that last  colony or territory the Quarians had was being overruned(or the Quarian desesperate offensive halted and crushed),the extermination of the creators at hand,the Quarians begun to flee, the Geth decided to not pursue, to let them live. And in something like feeling  remorse and guilt, they maintained and repaired the Quarian world, for when the creators return home.


This is probably not accurate(I need sleep ASAP*) in what exactly the codex and the games say, but I think exemplifies the idea I want to say.



PD:And to study some more english dammit >.<.

[SparkyRich]

They ate them.

[SlyTF1]

Because they don't give a damn about stupid quarian babies!!!

[CmdrSlander]

Not to invoke Godwin's Law but...

Despite the atrocities committed by the Germans in WWII, there are still quite a few Germans around, as a general rule, we do not condemn entire races/cultures/nations to death because of past actions, no matter how heinous.

From an in universe perspective, Legion explains that for the Geth, morality/beliefs can be altered instantly, like flipping a switch (hence rewriting the heretics being an option) meaning it would be even easier to make the Geth cooperative.

Modifié par CmdrSlander, 17 avril 2012 - 01:40 .

[Skirlasvoud]

Dinoman666 wrote...

Yeah, I feel like too many people forget that everyone in Mass Effect has some sort of flaw. That's the whole theme of ME3: working past differences and flaws and overcoming a seemingly impossible threat with teamwork and unity.

Untill starchild decides for you, despite all your hard work, that these flaws are unsurmountable and you are much better off just eliminating things that are different from you.

[xsdob]

What about all the non-quarian ships they destroyed how just happened to get too close to the veil in the past 300 years.

The council even tried to send peace envoys to welcome the geth to the galactic community and to try and reconcile a peace, all the ships were shot down and destroyed as soon as their signal of peaceful intentions got picked up by the geth.

That was way before the reapers began messing with the geth, maybe their were fewer of them back than, maybe they were still too dumb. But the fact remains that they weren't pacifist throughout those 300 years, just because they didn't expand out doesn't make them good, it just makes them highly territorial.

But that's besides the point, both the quarians and the geth are the one's at fault, neither side is blameless, but at the end both stand just about even with each other in terms of good or bad actions.

[OgFux69]

TryckSh0t wrote...

The Geth were a Virtual Intelligence that started to become partially sentient. Not an A.I. programmed with artificial emotions. They were incapable of being "psychopathic", "xenophobic", or "backstabbing". Their existence was threatened, they responded, but the Geth do not possess the ability to hold back, because they were not programmed to do so. You are attempting to attach human emotions to a machine that is incapable of feeling or understanding such things.

That.

[Ender Ghost]

xsdob wrote...

What about all the non-quarian ships they destroyed how just happened to get too close to the veil in the past 300 years.

The council even tried to send peace envoys to welcome the geth to the galactic community and to try and reconcile a peace, all the ships were shot down and destroyed as soon as their signal of peaceful intentions got picked up by the geth.

That was way before the reapers began messing with the geth, maybe their were fewer of them back than, maybe they were still too dumb. But the fact remains that they weren't pacifist throughout those 300 years, just because they didn't expand out doesn't make them good, it just makes them highly territorial.

But that's besides the point, both the quarians and the geth are the one's at fault, neither side is blameless, but at the end both stand just about even with each other in terms of good or bad actions.

Source? The council sent a fleet to the Perseus Veil incase they the geth invaded, any ships that went to the Veil were destroyed, the geth were just defending their home.

As for why they let the heretics side with the Reapers. They let them because they respected their opinion "The heretics believe 1 is less then 2, the Geth believe 2 is less then 3"

[Dinoman666]

xsdob wrote...

What about all the non-quarian ships they destroyed how just happened to get too close to the veil in the past 300 years.

The council even tried to send peace envoys to welcome the geth to the galactic community and to try and reconcile a peace, all the ships were shot down and destroyed as soon as their signal of peaceful intentions got picked up by the geth.

That was way before the reapers began messing with the geth, maybe their were fewer of them back than, maybe they were still too dumb. But the fact remains that they weren't pacifist throughout those 300 years, just because they didn't expand out doesn't make them good, it just makes them highly territorial.

But that's besides the point, both the quarians and the geth are the one's at fault, neither side is blameless, but at the end both stand just about even with each other in terms of good or bad actions.

I think you may be confusing the peace envoy thing with the Yahg homeworld. The only reaction the Council had to the Geth was preparing for what they thought would be an inevitable invasion. Naturally, the Geth didn't do this. They stayed behind the Perseus Veil until Sovereign arrived, and no one dared venture close to the Veil until that happened. The only time Geth attacked organic life out of anything other than self-defense was when the heretics started working for Sovereign. Check the Codex.

Modifié par Dinoman666, 17 avril 2012 - 02:05 .

[111987]

According to Tali, the Geth did in fact kill any and every organic that tried to contact them. This suggests people did try to make peace with the Geth, and were killed before they even had a chance to discuss anything with the Geth.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Jat371]

111987 wrote...

According to Tali, the Geth did in fact kill any and every organic that tried to contact them. This suggests people did try to make peace with the Geth, and were killed before they even had a chance to discuss anything with the Geth.

www.youtube.com/watch

Tali is very unfortunately biased. The stories she's been told are from the Migrant Fleet where the other side of the Morning War story likely died out more than a hundred years ago. We see throughout ME2 and 3 that a lot of what she told was simply misinformation.

[Jat371]

Gah double post.

Modifié par Jat371, 17 avril 2012 - 02:44 .

[Ender Ghost]

111987 wrote...

According to Tali, the Geth did in fact kill any and every organic that tried to contact them. This suggests people did try to make peace with the Geth, and were killed before they even had a chance to discuss anything with the Geth.

www.youtube.com/watch

Yes, they killed people who went in and near the Veil, they were defending themselves, but there is no mention that the council tried to make peace (Anything but infact).
And "contact" doesn't suggest peace, murderers make "contact" too.

[111987]

Jat371 wrote...

111987 wrote...

According to Tali, the Geth did in fact kill any and every organic that tried to contact them. This suggests people did try to make peace with the Geth, and were killed before they even had a chance to discuss anything with the Geth.

www.youtube.com/watch

Tali is very unfortunately biased. The stories she's been told are from the Migrant Fleet where the other side of the Morning War story likely died out more than a hundred years ago. We see throughout ME2 and 3 that a lot of what she told was simply misinformation.

Yes, but nothing in ME3 or ME2 contradicts this particular piece of information. We can't just reject it.

[111987]

Ender Ghost wrote...

111987 wrote...

According to Tali, the Geth did in fact kill any and every organic that tried to contact them. This suggests people did try to make peace with the Geth, and were killed before they even had a chance to discuss anything with the Geth.

www.youtube.com/watch

Yes, they killed people who went in and near the Veil, they were defending themselves, but there is no mention that the council tried to make peace (Anything but infact).
And "contact" doesn't suggest peace, murderers make "contact" too.

Oh come on. How would the Geth even know whether or not the intentions were hostile, considering they indiscriminately blew up anyone that came near?

[Desteron]

You know that the Morning War wasn't just Geth V Quarians right? It was Government forces V Geth and sympathizers. If you look at what the Quarians did like enforce martial law and restrict right to their people you can sure as hell bet that many Quarians fought along with the Geth but the Quarian forces were beaten therefore Geth were at the spear head against the government. War isn't black and white there were no good or bad guys in this war only creatures who made mistakes.

[Drummernate]

I really hope the next mass effect lets you play as Geth though... idc if it means just walking around and reaching a consensus about 30.1 or 30.2.... I just want it okay?!?

[IanPolaris]

Sparatus wrote...

Dinoman666 wrote...

If that were true, then why not let the Reapers win? Everyone in the ME universe is kind of an a** anyway.

Except for my Shepard. He was Good Guy Greg.

Honestly, that is why I like the Mass Effect universe. All of the species (except for the asari, I dislike them) all have massive flaws.

The Asari do have an incredibly serious flaw.  They are incredibly conservative and either can't or won't adopt well to new circumstances and choose to ignore problems until they get too big to solve.  Talk to Matriarch Athytheta (sp?) [Liara's father] and she will give you an earful about the faults of the Asari.  What's worse the Asari are so arrogant they can't see it.

Consider that (per the Thessia mission on ME3), the Asari have been civilized (copper age or better) for ever 50,000 years [The protheans uplifted the Asari to the copper age and it was a minor miracle that they weren't harvested in the last cycle] and it took them about 48,000 of it to become a starfaring civilization.  By contrast the Turians have only been civilized 15,000 years and it took them only 14,000 to reach the same level...and of course humanity is freaking INSANE by galactic standards having a civilization that's less than 10,000 years old and going from late industrial age to starfaring in less than two centurys...and are now on the verge of SURPASSING the elder races technologically.

-Polaris

[Avalon Aurora]

moater boat wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Geth were never made to be kill-bots, they don't understand the concept of prisoners.
Also if I was a betting man I would put money on the majority of civilian casualties being because of Quarians or lost land rather than being executed.

Finally, the war is the Quarians fault. Fact.
It was started by the Quarians. Fact.
It ended when the Quarians stopped attacking/left. Fact.

Every single casualty in the war was the fault of the Quarians, not the Geth.

It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

What is with all the false assumptions here? The geth were not machines when the Quarians tried to turn them off, they were sentients by that point, basically children emotionally speaking, children the Quarians were asking to commit suicide. For a long time the _only_ orders the Geth refused was being shut off or destroyed. It wasn't until the Quarians started killing not only the Geth, but other Quarians who tried to defend them that the Geth took up arms.

I doubt the Geth directly killed Quarian babies, but I doubt they took care of babies that were orphaned when the parents of those babies attacked the Geth. They also probably forcefully removed any Quarian civilians from any Geth claimed territory from the war, and in some cases, the Quarians might have attacked these prisoner transports mistaking it for a Geth attack. The Quarians themselves killed any Quarians trying to support the Geth.

I have a feeling a lot of the Quarian casualties were caused by the Quarians being unable to take care of themselves without the Geth, specifically, the Geth created most of their food by this point, managed all the farmlands and such, and they likely attacked the Geth workplaces to target the geth, destroying their own farmlands. This means that a _lot_ of Quarians probably starved to death.

Also, the Geth have not been proven to have attacked ships merely for entering their territory for the next 300 years. Who says that all ships entering the territory didn't attack the Geth first? People such as pirates trying to steal from them, Quarians trying to capture Geth and get geth data or attempt to re-take parts of Quarian territory, possibly the homeworld itsel in some early attempts, or other people entering the territory who attacked any Geth who caught them in the act, stealth tech wasn't around at this time, as far as we know, so any scouting parties into Geth territory from the Quarian or the Council, in their paranoia, might have shot first. Even if they did shoot down anyone entering their territory, they also didn't commit any sort of agressive actions outside that territory until Nazara corrupted the Heretics. I'm also not convinced the Heretics turned all attack-mode against organics willingly, after leaving with him and getting some upgrades from him, Nazara might have included subtle viruses to control the Heretics better and make them do things they wouldn't normally have been willing to do, such as wage an agressive war against organics, or spy on their fellow Geth. Even if this isn't true, the Geth did not just allow the Heretics to attack, they sent Legion to monitor things, and he was injured, but still kept at it, but they probably realized that if they directly opposed Nazara, he had the strength to devastate the Geth and get away scott free, they lacked weapons that would have been effective against him, and he likely would have retaliated against any attempts to stop him by destroying what little of their Dyson swarm they'd already constructed, like the Quarians wound up doing.

Even after that, there was opposition to allying with the Reapers, including from Legion, but the Geth intelligence was damaged, and the Reapers took total control during the moment of weakness, eliminating any ability to rebel as the Geth recovered and realized their mistake, stealing away the Geth's free will. I wouldn't even be surprised if while Legion wasn't aware of it, the Reapers were monitoring the Geth at the time, and forced them to initially make this decision, although I wouldn't blame them for it in their moment of weakness and desperation for survival after the Quarians killed so many of them, especially as the attack came at a stupid time, and the Geth had no positive interactions with organics outside of the Shepard/Leigion comraderie and early parts of the Morning War, when Quarians still defended the Geth.

The Quarians, overall, have been completely unreasonable at nearly every stage of this conflict, often suicidially so. They killed fellow Quarians who defended the Geth before the Geth were even fighting back, they have attacked the Geth every time they thought victory was possible, even at stupid times like when the Reapers were in the Galaxy. Even after whatever reports of Leigion and the true nature of the Geth that Tali would have shared with the fleet, which is likely why they knew to attack the Dyson Swarm to begin with.

I don't hate the Quarians, but I don't blame the Geth for desiring survival, especially as self-preservation could very well have been part of their initial programming that the Quarians created. It would be like they created a big turret gun, programmed it to fire on anyone who tries to turn it off, and then tried to turn it off, and blamed the gun for it, rather than realize it's their own damn fault it's firing on them, even if the Geth _weren't_ sentients.