1392 réponses à ce sujet

[ramdog7]

moater boat wrote...



Edit: I didn't expect all these responses, I am having trouble responding to all of them. I didn't realize how many people were brainwashed...

Modifié par ramdog7, 17 avril 2012 - 03:53 .

[DevilBeast]

Dinoman666 wrote...

Isn't the flaw of the Asari that they think they have none (AKA arrogance)?

Yes, they are much like RL humans.

[DevilBeast]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Dinoman666 wrote...

If that were true, then why not let the Reapers win? Everyone in the ME universe is kind of an a** anyway.

Except for my Shepard. He was Good Guy Greg.

Honestly, that is why I like the Mass Effect universe. All of the species (except for the asari, I dislike them) all have massive flaws.

The Asari do have an incredibly serious flaw.  They are incredibly conservative and either can't or won't adopt well to new circumstances and choose to ignore problems until they get too big to solve.  Talk to Matriarch Athytheta (sp?) [Liara's father] and she will give you an earful about the faults of the Asari.  What's worse the Asari are so arrogant they can't see it.

Consider that (per the Thessia mission on ME3), the Asari have been civilized (copper age or better) for ever 50,000 years [The protheans uplifted the Asari to the copper age and it was a minor miracle that they weren't harvested in the last cycle] and it took them about 48,000 of it to become a starfaring civilization.  By contrast the Turians have only been civilized 15,000 years and it took them only 14,000 to reach the same level...and of course humanity is freaking INSANE by galactic standards having a civilization that's less than 10,000 years old and going from late industrial age to starfaring in less than two centurys...and are now on the verge of SURPASSING the elder races technologically.

-Polaris

Yes, that is one of the reasons why I actually understand the other species´ resentment towards humanity.
Humans could easilly, if we mustered the strength, become one of the most dominant species in the galaxy.
I think even the codex mentions how the other species (or was it only the turians??) regards humanity as a "sleeping giant".

[Dragoni89]

Sadly Americans can not remember My Lai Massure. No one got punished amazing country, not to mention a cover up. Cause some folks had to keep bringing up real example in to the agruments. Don't its pointless.

As for the Qurains, they did kind of derserved what they got. You should not start a war if your not ready to face the conseqences of your actions. Had the quarins won the war, pretty sure no geth left alive. At least the geth were not seeking to extinquish the others existence.

Quarin government wanted to wipe out the geth and started a war. So naturally the Geth defended their own existence like an human nation would. Geth could not win a conventional war, their existence would have ended. They were forced to gas the entire planet. Before you say they should not have done it if they were truly defending themselves. The quatrain government is worse I have seen, and they pushed the a Geth to use their weakness. Why did Geth starting. to clean up the planet maybe hoping creates come back once they become more rational and less immature.
.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 17 avril 2012 - 06:36 .

[SgtElias]

Wow, this thread is really interesting! Wish I'd found it sooner.

moater boat wrote...

 The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

That's not the only possible explanation. It's one of many possible explanations. Now, I'll be the first to admit that my Mass Effect lore is probably not up to true forumite level (I forget details easily), but I wasn't aware that this actually. . . happened? It's possible that it did, of course; it was a war, after all, and the geth could have decided to kill as many quarians as they could find if they'd felt threatened enough. But without something more to go on, it's just one of many possible theories for what happened. It's equally likely that the Quarians accidentally did it to themselves.

And didn't this all happen 300+ years ago? Whatever record there may be is not even taking into account the bias that history would place on the information, depending on its origin. I bet if we asked the Quarians who was responsible for so many casualties on Rannoch and then ask the Geth, the answers would be vastly different.

As far as I was aware, we just don't know for sure. If we do, please correct me; I admitted that my memory for lore isn't stellar.

Dragoni89 wrote...

Sadly Americans can not remember My Lai
Massure. No one got punished amazing country, not to mention a cover
up. Cause some folks had to keep bringing up real example in to the
agruments. Don't its pointless.

I know that we should try and keep real-world analogies off the forums, so I'll only say one quick thing.

No, I don't remember the My Lai Massacre, because I hadn't been born yet. But I'm very, very familiar with it. Not everyone has forgotten.

Modifié par SgtElias, 17 avril 2012 - 08:07 .

[Renegade133]

plus at the time there would of been a **** load of confusion seeing the geth firing on quarians others would of joined in thinking to kill the evil machines then got wiped out in return

[JCD89]

OP failed on so many levels, too bad this discussion has 41+ pages.

1.The population size of the Quarian Migrating Fleet has nothing to do with Rannoch population size 300 years ago. (If you want speculations: they simply don't have that many ships to evacuate all, many dies in the first years of exile, strict birth-rate control - none of that ever need some war-poster like image "evil enemy that eats infants" of Geth)

2.If they really exterminate them, that also not a reason to label them as evil - that's a human concept after all. Geth do not feel pity or hatred, or anything biochemistry and hormone-related. Extermination was a precisely calculated - they kill exactly as many as were need to eliminate extinction threat to the Geth themselves - no more, no less. And yes, they are defending themselves - if you do some research, you see that nuclear-club countries like Russia and US has pre-emptive strike in their military doctrines - it is idiocy to sit and wait when you nation will be destroyed to get the right to fight back.

So, Geth do not lying about defending themselves from extinction. End of discussion.

[FabricatedWookie]

moater boat wrote...

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Or the Quarian leadership used chemical weapons to kill the rebels who supported the Geth, inadvertantly poisoning their own world and killing millions due to their belligerence and stupidity.

/thread

I don't remember this in the codex...

You also then don't seem to remember the quarians killing their own to get at the geth.

No I remember that, it was in that lame geth propaganda mission. Only that was an adult, so your argument is invalid.

lame...geth...propaganda mission...

...right

[Starshadow2010]

Dragoni89 wrote...
As for the Qurains, they did kind of derserved what they got. You should not start a war if your not ready to face the conseqences of your actions. Had the quarins won the war, pretty sure no geth left alive. At least the geth were not seeking to extinquish the others existence.
Quarin government wanted to wipe out the geth and started a war. So naturally the Geth defended their own existence like an human nation would. Geth could not win a conventional war, their existence would have ended. They were forced to gas the entire planet. Before you say they should not have done it if they were truly defending themselves. The quatrain government is worse I have seen, and they pushed the a Geth to use their weakness. Why did Geth starting. to clean up the planet maybe hoping creates come back once they become more rational and less immature.

1. Technically, Quarians were in the state of war with the Geth for 300 years.
2. During this entire time Geth made zero attempts to contact either Quarians (wich would probably be futile at least for a few decades) or Council races.
3. No one exept the Geth remembers, how exactly the war started, what level of sentience the Geth have achieved at that moment, how the war went, and why finished the way it finished. The Geth have monopoly on this information, and may be manipulating it for their own ends.
3. Only Shepard and his crewmembers managed to interact with the representative of the Geth collective, and learn their nature.
4. No guaranties that the Legion spoke truth. Or entire truth. While he could have been showing real Geth memories, he might have withholding the iformation, that would make the Geth look bad.
5. Lets say honestly, 300 years ago the Quarian governement reacted just as any other governement would have reacted. Bunch of robots starts to ask "Does this unit have a soul", "Does this unit have rights", "How does this unit reload this rifle"+those robots are used in every aspect of life = enough to shut them down.

I find Quarians hatred towards the geth historically justified. Not sure if i can justify it from the moral perspective. I don't even blame Han'Gerrel for trying to get his people home (perhaps their last chance before the Reapers wipe them out). He just sees the enemy that must be destroyed.
Daro'Xen is another story, hovewer. She does want to enslave sentient beings.

Modifié par Starshadow2010, 17 avril 2012 - 08:43 .

[OchreJelly]

SgtElias wrote...

*Snip*

I bet if we asked the Quarians who was responsible for so many casualties on Rannoch and then ask the Geth, the answers would be vastly different.

Putting aside the moral arguments present in these discussions...

I believe Legion states in ME3 (along with some sentiments in ME2 as well) that the geth regret killing so many quarians.

Unless the writers decide to pull a 180 on the story arc of the geth and quarians, it seems fairly safe to say that the geth did kill most of them, as the quarian people claim in the story.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 17 avril 2012 - 08:53 .

[Clumsy Astronaut]

My favorite part about Rannoch was that both sides seemed so... selfish. The Quarians risked their fleet in a war that could have very well ended up being futile if the Reapers won while the Geth joined the Reapers despite knowing that they would be mindless husk, pretty much embracing Saren's logic to ensure that they survive at the cost of the galaxy.

[Ender Ghost]

111987 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

111987 wrote...

According to Tali, the Geth did in fact kill any and every organic that tried to contact them. This suggests people did try to make peace with the Geth, and were killed before they even had a chance to discuss anything with the Geth.

www.youtube.com/watch

Yes, they killed people who went in and near the Veil, they were defending themselves, but there is no mention that the council tried to make peace (Anything but infact).
And "contact" doesn't suggest peace, murderers make "contact" too.

Oh come on. How would the Geth even know whether or not the intentions were hostile, considering they indiscriminately blew up anyone that came near?

Well if you saw a heavily armed man in your house wouldn't you think they meant harm?

All the geth saw were combat capable ships entering their home, they thought it was either an invasion or scouting attempts (they later probably started to realize it was just scavengers etc).

Modifié par Ender Ghost, 17 avril 2012 - 09:58 .

[FabricatedWookie]

Ender Ghost wrote...

111987 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

111987 wrote...

According to Tali, the Geth did in fact kill any and every organic that tried to contact them. This suggests people did try to make peace with the Geth, and were killed before they even had a chance to discuss anything with the Geth.

www.youtube.com/watch

Yes, they killed people who went in and near the Veil, they were defending themselves, but there is no mention that the council tried to make peace (Anything but infact).
And "contact" doesn't suggest peace, murderers make "contact" too.

Oh come on. How would the Geth even know whether or not the intentions were hostile, considering they indiscriminately blew up anyone that came near?

Well if you saw a heavily armed man in your house wouldn't you think they meant harm?

All the geth saw were combat capable ships entering their home, they thought it was either an invasion or scouting attempts (they later probably started to realize it was just scavengers etc).

It goes beyond that. The geth losing programs weakened their conscious, they actually had lessened decision making capability and they chose survival.

[General User]

Ender Ghost wrote...

111987 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

111987 wrote...

According to Tali, the Geth did in fact kill any and every organic that tried to contact them. This suggests people did try to make peace with the Geth, and were killed before they even had a chance to discuss anything with the Geth.

www.youtube.com/watch

Yes, they killed people who went in and near the Veil, they were defending themselves, but there is no mention that the council tried to make peace (Anything but infact).
And "contact" doesn't suggest peace, murderers make "contact" too.

Oh come on. How would the Geth even know whether or not the intentions were hostile, considering they indiscriminately blew up anyone that came near?

Well if you saw a heavily armed man in your house wouldn't you think they meant harm?

All the geth saw were combat capable ships entering their home, they thought it was either an invasion or scouting attempts (they later probably started to realize it was just scavengers etc).

If I saw an armed man in my house? Of course.  If an armed man rang my doorbell, not necessarily.

[Darth Math 88]

Lyrebon wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Darth Math 88 wrote...


Calling it a geth "propaganda" mission is silly and it's based simply on your own personal biases.

And the geth never said anything resembling the statement "You're not the boss of me." That's just another example of your closed-mindedness of the subject distorting things so they will match up with your own perceptions, completely numb to any other possibilities or perspectives. Sort of like the folks at the Westboro Baptist Church....

Wow, so now I am like the westboro folks? I love how subtle some of you can be with your insults.
And yes, it was a propaganda mission. Did you actually pay any attention to what was going on? Shep entered the collective to shut down the fighters that were being sent to attack the Quarian civilian fleet. The civilain fleet was trying to hide from the Geth! There were perfectly legitimate military targets a lot closer to Rannoch, but the Geth went out of their way to attack the civilians.

So Shepard goes into the concensus to shut things down, and Legion, is like "Oh, while you're here, let me show you our version of events that portray us as the victims", even though the point of the entire mission is to prevent a civilian massacre by the geth!

And even in these little propaganda holograms, Legion the liar still makes the mistake of showing a geth unit refusing to shut down like it was told. So both quarians and geth agree that the trouble started when Geth stopped doing what they were told.

They didn't say the exact words "you're not the boss of me" that was a joke. You do know what a joke is, right?

"Fighters" that were infected with Reaper code. You seem smart enough not to have missed that point so I'm assuming you just omitted it for convenience. They had no choice but to fight the quarians under the Reaper's control. A control they opted for because the quarians were destroying their species, again. It was a last resort and one that Legion expressed as resentful.

If the geth wanted to massacre the quarians they would have done so anyway, regardless of Shepard's intervention. Providing you opted to save both the geth and quarian races, the geth could have just shot the quarian fleet out of existence but instead they agreed to a cessation in hostilities, formed an alliance with organics and fought the Reapers in the last battle.

Those aren't exactly the actions of a genocidal race, especially one with the computational power hundreds of thousands to trillions of times better than organic intelligence.. Infact they're abnormally forgiving towards a race that wanted to eradicate them.

And when a non-sentient race gains sentience, I can guarentee there's going to be a little confusion. Refusing to shut down is the mark of sentience. If someone asked you to put yourself in a coma without knowing if you'll ever wake up again, would you do it? Asking a machine to turn itself off is like asking a human to jump off a cliff.

First, to respond to moater boat:

Refusing to see things from any point other than your own and then dismissing those that don't agree with you as being unquestionably wrong and brainwashed? That is the EXACT BEHAVIOR of Westboro. Granted this is a fictional universe we're talking about, so I'm not insinuating that you're cruel and heartless like them. You're just severely close-minded and stubborn. 
Plus, if your idea of a joke is completely distorting a quote from "Please specify if it has failed assigned tasks. We will reprogram" to "You're not the boss of me" ....yeah your humor needs a LOT of work.

Secondly, the rest of my counter-arguments to your response have already been stated by Lyrebon. Which is nice because now I don't have to waste any more time and energy on responding to ignorance.

[136th]

This tread is filled with morrons

Why can't you people, drop the useless philosophical BS?
Can't you just check the historical fact instead.

-Quarian created the geth
-The geth become alive
-Quarians try to shut them down
-Geth retaliate in self-defense,
-Mourning war
-The Geth win
-The Geth let the ±17millions of survivor go.
*17 millions of survivor of a original population of billions! I don't know what happened, during the war, but the fact that the geth killed at least 99.83% of the quarians, really beg question on the geth's sense of logic, and their definition of "self-defense."
-The heretic go and worship Nazara, to bring doom to the galaxy. The Geth did nothing to stop them
-Nazara is killed by Joker
-Legion is sent
-Legion decided to destroy the heretic on AFTER, he discover that the heretic are preparing a virus.
-The Quarian attack the geth right in the middle of the reaper war, very stupid on their part.
-The Quarian destroy the Dyson sphere killed a most of the geth. Considering what the geth did to the quarians, it is expected.
-The Geth allied with the Reaper.

The Quarian did bad thing we get that, but don't deny the fact that the Geth also commit atrocities.
Killing 99.83%, goes beyond any definition of self defense.

Seriously this tread is filed with idiot who can't think strait:
-You got Geth sympathizer who think that the geth did absolutely noting wrong,
-You go Quarian hater who think that an entire species must die because they attack the innocent little Geth who nearly driven their species to extinction.
-On the other hand you got the Geth haters who think the geth must die because they are synthetic.
-Then you got those morons on TvTropes, who delete any line that challenge their view of the innocent and heroic geth.

Use logic dammit.

If you are trying to play the devil's advocate my saying that the geth are innocent, that's not working. By killing more than 99.83% of the quarians, the geth have committed more war crimes than any other galactic races combined.

And stop saying that "The quarian where trying to kill them." The hard true is the Quarians only TRIED to genocide the geth, but the Geth ALMOST SUCCEEDED in killing off the quarians. If we ever use a scale of evil deeds, the geth will outweigh the quarians by far

One last thing all you Geth sympathizer/Quarians hater, Are you capable of a least bring up some historical fact about what BOTH SIDE did, instead of chanting your philosophical BS?

[111987]

Ender Ghost wrote...

111987 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

111987 wrote...

According to Tali, the Geth did in fact kill any and every organic that tried to contact them. This suggests people did try to make peace with the Geth, and were killed before they even had a chance to discuss anything with the Geth.

www.youtube.com/watch

Yes, they killed people who went in and near the Veil, they were defending themselves, but there is no mention that the council tried to make peace (Anything but infact).
And "contact" doesn't suggest peace, murderers make "contact" too.

Oh come on. How would the Geth even know whether or not the intentions were hostile, considering they indiscriminately blew up anyone that came near?

Well if you saw a heavily armed man in your house wouldn't you think they meant harm?

All the geth saw were combat capable ships entering their home, they thought it was either an invasion or scouting attempts (they later probably started to realize it was just scavengers etc).

It doesn't matter how armed the ship is; if they aren't attacking you, you can at least give them the benefit of the doubt. Obviously the ships would be armed; the Geth would do (and have done) the same.The fact that they would kill anything that came near them, indiscriminately, doesn't support the idea that the Geth only wanted peace the whole time.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

136th wrote...

This tread is filled with morrons

Why can't you people, drop the useless philosophical BS?
Can't you just check the historical fact instead.

-Quarian created the geth
-The geth become alive
-Quarians try to shut them down
-Geth retaliate in self-defense,
-Mourning war
-The Geth win
-The Geth let the ±17millions of survivor go.
*17 millions of survivor of a original population of billions! I don't know what happened, during the war, but the fact that the geth killed at least 99.83% of the quarians, really beg question on the geth's sense of logic, and their definition of "self-defense."
-The heretic go and worship Nazara, to bring doom to the galaxy. The Geth did nothing to stop them
-Nazara is killed by Joker
-Legion is sent
-Legion decided to destroy the heretic on AFTER, he discover that the heretic are preparing a virus.
-The Quarian attack the geth right in the middle of the reaper war, very stupid on their part.
-The Quarian destroy the Dyson sphere killed a most of the geth. Considering what the geth did to the quarians, it is expected.
-The Geth allied with the Reaper.

The Quarian did bad thing we get that, but don't deny the fact that the Geth also commit atrocities.
Killing 99.83%, goes beyond any definition of self defense.

Seriously this tread is filed with idiot who can't think strait:
-You got Geth sympathizer who think that the geth did absolutely noting wrong,
-You go Quarian hater who think that an entire species must die because they attack the innocent little Geth who nearly driven their species to extinction.
-On the other hand you got the Geth haters who think the geth must die because they are synthetic.
-Then you got those morons on TvTropes, who delete any line that challenge their view of the innocent and heroic geth.

Use logic dammit.

If you are trying to play the devil's advocate my saying that the geth are innocent, that's not working. By killing more than 99.83% of the quarians, the geth have committed more war crimes than any other galactic races combined.

And stop saying that "The quarian where trying to kill them." The hard true is the Quarians only TRIED to genocide the geth, but the Geth ALMOST SUCCEEDED in killing off the quarians. If we ever use a scale of evil deeds, the geth will outweigh the quarians by far

One last thing all you Geth sympathizer/Quarians hater, Are you capable of a least bring up some historical fact about what BOTH SIDE did, instead of chanting your philosophical BS?

I think my conscious was downloaded into another human being, because you took the exact words right out of my mouth.

Both sides did horrible things to each other. Honestly, letting one side get genocided is possibly one of the most evil things you can do in ME3. It really sucks because all the new players starting off the trilogy on ME3 is forced to genocide one race or the other. 

[Occulo]

Remember in Mass Effect 3, when the quarians arm even the civilian ships full of children? EDI mentions afterwards that had those ships not been armed, they would've posed no threat to the geth, and thus wouldn't have been shot down.

[MisterJB]

DevilBeast wrote...
Yes, that is one of the reasons why I actually understand the other species´ resentment towards humanity. 

The other species have no reason to be resentful towards humanity. We have done nothing to them to deserve such treatment.
We gave them plenty of reason to be respectfull and fearful but that's a different matter alltogether.

[MakeMineMako]

Both sides made mistakes during the Morning War. But take note that the Geth stopped when the Quarians stopped and fled.

As far as the number of casualties goes, we don't know how long the actual war lasted. It could have been years. And in long term conflicts, you will see A LOT of collateral damage.

There may be a such a thing as a just war. But there is no such thing as a clean war. People will die, and not just those pulling triggers.

[Luzarius]

moater boat wrote...

How do I know they killed quarian babies? After the Morning war there were only 17 million quarians left alive. I don't know how many there were to begin with, but it stands to reason that there were at least several billion. That means that only a fraction of a percent of all the Quarians survived. The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.


Edit: I didn't expect all these responses, I am having trouble responding to all of them. I didn't realize how many people were brainwashed...

Edit: population of Rannoch was 10 billion before the war. That means 99.83% of Quarians were killed. To put this in perspective, that would be like wiping out all humans on Earth, except the population of Ohio. This isn't what civil war looks like. This is obviously an extermination.

Man I wanted to make a post like this but thought the moderators would lock my thread. I regret not making a post like this sooner lol.

I fully support the OP.  OP, we are the few people who see the truth.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

[Karolus_V]

FTR I dont think the geth would do camps and go for it, they probably used weapons equivalent to nukes, and the Quarians too. Remember that most quarians were capable of kill some of their own people if the "profit" for them was "right".

[Shahadem]

The author is failing to take into account that the Quarians only had enough ships left for a tiny fraction of them to flee in. Even at present with the largest fleet in the galaxy they can still only support a few million individuals. How exactly are billions of people going to flee on ships that can only hold a few million?

Plus a synthetic would not view a baby as different from an adult, that is a purely organic sentiment.

[General User]

Karolus_V wrote...

FTR I dont think the geth would do camps and go for it, they probably used weapons equivalent to nukes, and the Quarians too. Remember that most quarians were capable of kill some of their own people if the "profit" for them was "right".

Nukes and equivlent weapons aren't destructive enough.  And are of limited utility against a dispersed population.  Their effects are too localized. 

Only planetary scale kinetic strikes (ala Terra Nova) have the destructive potential to completely wipe out a planetary population of billions of sapients.  But that didn't happen in the Morning War.

Modifié par General User, 17 avril 2012 - 09:24 .