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If the Geth were "just defending themselves" why did they kill so many quarian babies?


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#1051
General User

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Ender Ghost wrote...
1: the Quarians fled, they didn't stay on their other worlds, they all just left to the migrant fleet.

The quarian population on Rannoch alone was in the billions.  The Migrant Fleet (which has grown over the years) is crowded at 17 million.

Ender Ghost wrote...
2: Oh really?

Really.

Ender Ghost wrote...
Did you learn nothing from the Rannoch missions? The Quarians had civilians in their fleets, they probably tried to refit civilian ships to fight the Geth (And the Geth as we know from EDI would ignore unarmed ships as being tactically insignificant), next there is colatteral damage, they keep the wives and children of soldiers on military bases (sometimes) so the same could be the case with the Geth.

"Colatteral damage" cannot account fo the scale of death suffered by the quarians during the Morning War.


Ender Ghost wrote...
And not to mention the Quarians killed the Quarians who supported the Geth, and in that case they probably killed their children aswell (So they would never grow up and blackmail the Quarian government about it).
Not to mention desease, injuries they got before they left, food, infection, etc would have killed a lot of Quarians when they left.

Disease, injury, famine, even taken collectively, also cannot account for the scale of death suffered by the quarians.

Nothing kills +99% of a multi-planet wide population of sapients except a deliberate campaign of extermination.

Modifié par General User, 17 avril 2012 - 10:49 .


#1052
Lazengan

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thewalrusx wrote...

How many Japanese babies died in WWII due to American bombs? When is a war ever clean and fair?


ww2 has been mentioned

inb4 godwin

#1053
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KingZayd wrote...

everything they learned of war, they learned from the Quarians.

They picked up a few lessons from the Reapers too.

Modifié par General User, 17 avril 2012 - 10:47 .


#1054
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You know who else wanted to kill all of the robots in the world?

Einstein.

THEN HITLER

#1055
Lazengan

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Sparatus wrote...

You know who else wanted to kill all of the robots in the world?

Einstein.

THEN HITLER


FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

#1056
KingZayd

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General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

everything they learned of war, they learned from the Quarians.

They picked up a few lessons from the Reapers too.


during the morning war? no, all Quarian.

#1057
DJBare

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Hospitallar wrote...

moater boat wrote...

DJBare wrote...

moater boat wrote...
No I remember that, it was in that lame geth propaganda mission. Only that was an adult, so your argument is invalid.

Only an adult?, there ya go kiddies, a lesson for you, it's okay to kill adults but not babies or children, lest we forget those adults probably had children of their own, but I'm sure those children will be forgiving that their own kind killed their parents.


If you think killing an innocent baby is the same as killing an enemy in war, you're pretty much a horrible human being. Sorry.


Those admirals should have thought of that when they involved the civilians fleet

Not to worry, as a father of three, I know my values, moater boat just missed the point as usual.

#1058
136th

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Sparatus wrote...

I think the major issue we have here is that people keep trying to judge the geth by organic morality. Which isn't going to work. They are machines. They think like machines. They will do what is most logical and they will do it efficiently. If that means killing enough quarians to make them not a threat so they will leave, then they will do it.

The geth are just really weird, man. Even for AI. Because they aren't technically a true AI until you let Legion upload the Reaper code. They are just some weird lovechild of a VI and AI.


We should judge on what they did instead, killed billions of quarians, shoot very organict ship that tried to contact them, did noting to stop the heretic (Legion was sent after the Sovereign's death), consiver slavery a better alternative that fight to the end as themselves.
they have not culture no art expect the building of their dysonshpere.

Legion: Geth build their own future
in ME3 the geth quikely throw the whole self developpment  philosopie into the window, trusting a  species who only car about self presevation in a war for survival, trusting them?

The geth crossed the line when they killed most of the quarians, they crossed another line when they let the hereric go, crossed a trid time when they allie with the with the reapers agains.

Just kill them all, the are a liability.

#1059
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KingZayd wrote...

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

everything they learned of war, they learned from the Quarians.

They picked up a few lessons from the Reapers too.


during the morning war? no, all Quarian.

Let me put it this way: So what?  

So what if the geth, during Morning War, learned everything they knew from the quarians?  It doesn't change what they are. 

It doesn't change what they did.  It doesn't change what they became.  It doesn't change the threat they pose to those around them.  Namely humans. 

Modifié par General User, 17 avril 2012 - 10:58 .


#1060
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The way they make their decisions is very unnerving. It's always cold, hard logic.

#1061
136th

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Sparatus wrote...

The way they make their decisions is very unnerving. It's always cold, hard logic.


Cold, hard logic only works when you know everthing, sinc eyou never know everthing, cold hard logic is a very stupid thing to do.

#1062
inko1nsiderate

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That huge reduction of population on Rannoch is pretty damning in and of itself. I mean... if the Geth were theoretical physicists anything over 95% of the population being eliminated would count as 'population exterminated'.

I think though, that the total Quarian population pre-war is unknown. The Migrant fleet has strict population controls, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that the population has been relatively stagnant. And we don't know how many Quarians lived off of Rannonch. Let's say the original population of the fleet was 10 billlion, that is the population of Rannoch. Even if Haestrom had a population comparable to Rannonch we are still only getting at about 50% reduction in Quarian population and not ~98%. Probably not more than a few billion on other Quarian holdings besides those two planets. Either way: the death toll is in the billions. That is... staggeringly huge. At bare minimum it seems like the Geth decimated the Quarians (if we assume next-to no growth of population of migrant fleet, and only on order of 10 billion Quarians in total not living on Rannoch), decimation of a population is no small feat and is pretty abhorent not matter how you feel about the Geth's motivation.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 17 avril 2012 - 11:00 .


#1063
KingZayd

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General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

everything they learned of war, they learned from the Quarians.

They picked up a few lessons from the Reapers too.


during the morning war? no, all Quarian.

Let me put it this way: So what?   So what if the geth, during Morning War, learned everything they knew from the quarians?  It doesn't change what they are.  It doesn't change the threat they pose to those around them.  Namely  humans. 


So there's no reason to like the Quarians more than the Geth. There should be an option to kill them all because they can't be trusted. The Geth sided with our enemies and are a potential threat while the Quarians like starting wars they can't win, and created the oh so dangerous Geth. KILL THEM ALL.

EDIT: the quarians also ended up giving the reapers an ally. stupid quarians.. let us euthanise them.


2nd EDIT: AND the Geth were basically babies/children themselves at the time (they had just become self-aware) 

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 11:05 .


#1064
Karolus_V

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About collateral damage...what kind of collateral damage can you expect, even without nuclear weapons, when two modern wealthy countrys of today, with weapon production capabilites, going to war each other, in a no quarters, we all die or you all die war? I say it, because collateral damage that is inflicted in modern conflicts is nothing compared to the real damage that can be inflicted, and thats because all of the international regulations, the rich countrys stance about war and how to conduct it, and asimetrical conflicts (no toe to toe war). Just think about WW2, and the massive bombardments with piston motor bombers, leveling entire cities if necesary. Now, think attack ships with eezo cores, who know what type of bombs, and mass effect weapons, lasers and all that attacking a city. Destruction is ensured.


We cannot forget, that the power we see in scifi is decreased(though in lore, you see their real power, like in photon torpedo real power in star trek -one shot city leveling order-) in order to allow certain goals: Lower budget, make it more epic making them SXVIII sea battles, , and writer ignorance about physics and what they are using as ammo for that "limited damage weapon".

In resume, a your life or mine war with that level of technology, would be devastating, to civilians, enviroment, infraestructure, etc.

#1065
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KingZayd wrote...
So there's no reason to like the Quarians more than the Geth.

Are you making these decisons based on who you "like more"?  Granted, in a series as utterly nonsensical as Mass Effect it's as good a standard as any, but still...

KingZayd wrote...
There should be an option to kill them all because they can't be trusted. The Geth sided with our enemies and are a potential threat while the Quarians like starting wars they can't win, and created the oh so dangerous Geth. KILL THEM ALL.

That's just ridiculous.

#1066
Chaoswind

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EDI does mention that the ruthlessness of the Geth is probably a direct result of their consensus and their inability to understand the concept of individuality.

Till that point the Geth made choices based on logic and basic scenarios, they had no morals beyond the "everyone has the right to choose" motto.

Geth are like Ruthless Salarians, at least until Legion (the only geth to develop a personality) upgrades them.

#1067
KingZayd

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General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
So there's no reason to like the Quarians more than the Geth.

Are you making these decisons based on who you "like more"?  Granted, in a series as utterly nonsensical as Mass Effect it's as good a standard as any, but still...

KingZayd wrote...
There should be an option to kill them all because they can't be trusted. The Geth sided with our enemies and are a potential threat while the Quarians like starting wars they can't win, and created the oh so dangerous Geth. KILL THEM ALL.

That's just ridiculous.



Wait, so I can't base my decision on which races is better? and i can't choose to get rid of the galaxy's biggest liabilities (apart from maybe the rachni?)

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 11:11 .


#1068
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Lot of strawmanning ITT

#1069
Ender Ghost

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General User wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...
1: the Quarians fled, they didn't stay on their other worlds, they all just left to the migrant fleet.

The quarian population on Rannoch alone was in the billions.  The Migrant Fleet (which has grown over the years) is crowded at 17 million.

Ender Ghost wrote...
2: Oh really?

Really.

Ender Ghost wrote...
Did you learn nothing from the Rannoch missions? The Quarians had civilians in their fleets, they probably tried to refit civilian ships to fight the Geth (And the Geth as we know from EDI would ignore unarmed ships as being tactically insignificant), next there is colatteral damage, they keep the wives and children of soldiers on military bases (sometimes) so the same could be the case with the Geth.

"Colatteral damage" cannot account fo the scale of death suffered by the quarians during the Morning War.


Ender Ghost wrote...
And not to mention the Quarians killed the Quarians who supported the Geth, and in that case they probably killed their children aswell (So they would never grow up and blackmail the Quarian government about it).
Not to mention desease, injuries they got before they left, food, infection, etc would have killed a lot of Quarians when they left.

Disease, injury, famine, even taken collectively, also cannot account for the scale of death suffered by the quarians.

Nothing kills +99% of a multi-planet wide population of sapients except a deliberate campaign of extermination.


1. There were no quarians under Geth control, they fled... I thought everyone knew that... guess not?
2.Keep telling yourself that
3.Civilians in the Quarian military fleets, bombing military targets in cities, scortched earth tactics (that the Quarians use to), ambushing convoys (which probably have civilians in them too) can all account for a lot of civilian death
4.But that, plus deaths caused by fellow Quarians, and the Quarian military personal that were killed (Plus those civilians who were either caught in the cross fire or used as meatshields by the Quarian government) probably can.

#1070
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KingZayd wrote...

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
So there's no reason to like the Quarians more than the Geth.

Are you making these decisons based on who you "like more"?  Granted, in a series as utterly nonsensical as Mass Effect it's as good a standard as any, but still...

KingZayd wrote...
There should be an option to kill them all because they can't be trusted. The Geth sided with our enemies and are a potential threat while the Quarians like starting wars they can't win, and created the oh so dangerous Geth. KILL THEM ALL.

That's just ridiculous.



Wait, so I can't base my decision on which races is better? and i can't choose to get rid of the galaxy's biggest liabilities (apart from maybe the rachni?)

You can base your choice on any standard you wish.  I only entreat you to be informed when you do.  If you save the geth you are saving a race of beings that made a conscious and deliberate choice to wipe out the vast majority of another race that they knew to be sentient, even though they knew that they had other options.

#1071
KingZayd

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General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
So there's no reason to like the Quarians more than the Geth.

Are you making these decisons based on who you "like more"?  Granted, in a series as utterly nonsensical as Mass Effect it's as good a standard as any, but still...

KingZayd wrote...
There should be an option to kill them all because they can't be trusted. The Geth sided with our enemies and are a potential threat while the Quarians like starting wars they can't win, and created the oh so dangerous Geth. KILL THEM ALL.

That's just ridiculous.



Wait, so I can't base my decision on which races is better? and i can't choose to get rid of the galaxy's biggest liabilities (apart from maybe the rachni?)

You can base your choice on any standard you wish.  I only entreat you to be informed when you do.  If you save the geth you are saving a race of beings that made a conscious and deliberate choice to wipe out the vast majority of another race that they knew to be sentient, even though they knew that they had other options.


You can base your choice on any standard you wish.  I only entreat you to be informed when you do.  If you save the quarians you are saving a race of beings that made a conscious and deliberate attempt to wipe out all of another race that they knew to be sentient, even though they knew that they had other options. 

#1072
Skirlasvoud

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Stop drawing comparisons to WW2 and Rannoch during the morning Wars you dumb-asses. They're both completely different kinds of wars.



When Allied forces take Berlin in 1945, they're not going to suspect babies of having fascist sympathies and shoot them just to be sure. It was their goal to assimilate the non-combatents of occupied territories into their own way of thinking: Convert them from fascism into a democracy. You can do that, because it's a human-human conflict. It's an inner-species war with both sides having comparable ways of life that can be integrated.


This is not what the Morning war was about. It's an inter-species war that doesn't allow the absorption of non-combatents. The quarians can't take control over the Geth populace or integrate them into their own civilization as civilians (or at least no longer in a way the Geth want to be treated), and the Geth can't add Quarian babies to the Geth concensus upon capture. It's a genocide, rough and simple.



This means that wether or not the Morning War is a defensive War on part of the Geth, is left up for debate. Undoubtedly, the Geth did slaughter babies, old folk and Quarian civilians. Not just as collateral damage as found in WW2, but knowingly and wittingly, hunted them down and exterminated them They had to. The flotilla couldn't have evacuated everyone and there were bound to be stragglers. If there aren't any Quarians living on Rannoch at the start of ME1, than this means that these stragglers were prosicuted by the Geth.

In their defence however, you have to look at it like a machine. The Quarians were agressors and prolonged the war. Therefore, it's easy to reason logically, that all Quarian individuals need to be terminated or removed from Rannoch to live in peace. I don't think machines would have discriminated between infant or soldier while doing this. And without a organic conscience to tell right from wrong, no war crimes were commited on part of the Geth.


To the casual observer however, the Quarians and Geth are equally horrible. They have both comitted genocide on eachother. The Quarians commited atrocities based on fear. The Geth comitted atrocities based on logic. 

And don't think that the Geth are metallic angels either. On my own playthrough of ME3, I hadn't been introduced to Legion yet. Because th Geth explained to me that the Quarians might have indeed been agressors, I initially sided with the Geth and allowed Legion to upload the Improved AI code to the fleet and destroy the Quarians in the progress if they didn't back down. It would have been the Quarians own damn fault.

However, as Tali pleaded me not to do it, Legion himself revealed that the Geth are little better.
"After the code is uploaded, we will destroy the Quarian fleet and end the wars. The destruction of the creators is the only solution."


It's exactly that reasoning that made the Geth indeed kill Quarian babies during the Morning war.



Both their excuses are flawed.

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 17 avril 2012 - 11:25 .


#1073
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Well, at least the quarian's option didn't involve siding with the Reapers. Just saying.

#1074
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KingZayd wrote...

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
So there's no reason to like the Quarians more than the Geth.

Are you making these decisons based on who you "like more"?  Granted, in a series as utterly nonsensical as Mass Effect it's as good a standard as any, but still...

KingZayd wrote...
There should be an option to kill them all because they can't be trusted. The Geth sided with our enemies and are a potential threat while the Quarians like starting wars they can't win, and created the oh so dangerous Geth. KILL THEM ALL.

That's just ridiculous.



Wait, so I can't base my decision on which races is better? and i can't choose to get rid of the galaxy's biggest liabilities (apart from maybe the rachni?)

You can base your choice on any standard you wish.  I only entreat you to be informed when you do.  If you save the geth you are saving a race of beings that made a conscious and deliberate choice to wipe out the vast majority of another race that they knew to be sentient, even though they knew that they had other options.


You can base your choice on any standard you wish.  I only entreat you to be informed when you do.  If you save the quarians you are saving a race of beings that made a conscious and deliberate attempt to wipe out all of another race that they knew to be sentient, even though they knew that they had other options. 

Not true in two ways.  First, the quarians never did know that the geth were a sapeint form of life.  And Second, they did not believe they had any other options.  In the Morning War, they could shut the geth down or become another "client race" of the Citadel Council.

#1075
KingZayd

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Sparatus wrote...

Well, at least the quarian's option didn't involve siding with the Reapers. Just saying.


pure luck that the advanced evil race preferred to kill organics, rather than synthetics. Were it the other way round, i suspect the quarians would have made exactly the same choice.