1392 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
So there's no reason to like the Quarians more than the Geth.

Are you making these decisons based on who you "like more"?  Granted, in a series as utterly nonsensical as Mass Effect it's as good a standard as any, but still...

KingZayd wrote...
There should be an option to kill them all because they can't be trusted. The Geth sided with our enemies and are a potential threat while the Quarians like starting wars they can't win, and created the oh so dangerous Geth. KILL THEM ALL.

That's just ridiculous.

Wait, so I can't base my decision on which races is better? and i can't choose to get rid of the galaxy's biggest liabilities (apart from maybe the rachni?)

You can base your choice on any standard you wish.  I only entreat you to be informed when you do.  If you save the geth you are saving a race of beings that made a conscious and deliberate choice to wipe out the vast majority of another race that they knew to be sentient, even though they knew that they had other options.

You can base your choice on any standard you wish.  I only entreat you to be informed when you do.  If you save the quarians you are saving a race of beings that made a conscious and deliberate attempt to wipe out all of another race that they knew to be sentient, even though they knew that they had other options. 

Not true in two ways.  First, the quarians never did know that the geth were a sapeint form of life.  And Second, they did not believe they had any other options.  In the Morning War, they could shut the geth down or become another "client race" of the Citadel Council.

that sounds like an option to me. and yes they knew they were sapient, that's why they were afraid and tried to kill them before the geth realised they were sapient.

EDIT: besides, an eye for an eye, right? why be merciful to those who won't return the favour? it's illogical. The fact they didn't finish the job is a sign that they're not just cold logical killing machines. Were there positions reversed, the Quarians wouldn't have hesitated.


2nd EDIT: And by choosing to kill the geth, are you not doing the exact same thing?

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 11:31 .

[General User]

Ender Ghost wrote...
There were no quarians under Geth control, they fled... I thought everyone knew that... guess not?

That doen not hold water.  There were billions of quarians on Rannoch alone, and they had other planets too.  The Migrant Fleet was simply not large enough to accomodate that number.

3.Civilians in the Quarian military fleets, bombing military targets in cities, scortched earth tactics (that the Quarians use to), ambushing convoys (which probably have civilians in them too) can all account for a lot of civilian death

But not enough.

4.But that, plus deaths caused by fellow Quarians, and the Quarian military personal that were killed (Plus those civilians who were either caught in the cross fire or used as meatshields by the Quarian government) probably can.

No it cannot.  There is simply not such thing as death on this scale unless someone meant for it to happen.

[Dragoni89]

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
So there's no reason to like the Quarians more than the Geth.

Are you making these decisons based on who you "like more"?  Granted, in a series as utterly nonsensical as Mass Effect it's as good a standard as any, but still...

KingZayd wrote...
There should be an option to kill them all because they can't be trusted. The Geth sided with our enemies and are a potential threat while the Quarians like starting wars they can't win, and created the oh so dangerous Geth. KILL THEM ALL.

That's just ridiculous.

Wait, so I can't base my decision on which races is better? and i can't choose to get rid of the galaxy's biggest liabilities (apart from maybe the rachni?)

You can base your choice on any standard you wish.  I only entreat you to be informed when you do.  If you save the geth you are saving a race of beings that made a conscious and deliberate choice to wipe out the vast majority of another race that they knew to be sentient, even though they knew that they had other options.

Oh please stfu. What other options? Are we forgeting the Quarains started this? Are we forgetting the Quarains killed Geth sympathsizers themselves. The Quarain government wanted to wipe out geth, pretty damn sure they would wiped off all the Geth if they could. I think the Geth did the best they could for a race that wanted to wipe them out competely. Put yourself in the position of the Geth first before you open your mouth and talk. At least the Geth had the decency not to chase after the fleets that left the planet. Pretty damn sure the Quarains would not have done the same had they won the war.

[G Kevin]

Just wanted to throw something in here.

When you side with Geth, Tali/Xen watch their people die in horror.

When you side with Quarian, Legion tries to KILL you.

Looking at it this way. Legion cares only or just cares more for his people than the entire war with the reapers. Hence he is willing to kill the only person that is doing his job to unite the galaxy to fight a common enemy.

Food for thought.

[Diablos2525]

thewalrusx wrote...

How many Japanese babies died in WWII due to American bombs? When is a war ever clean and fair?

Precisely, the atomic bomb was not justified. Do you know how many children survived with radiation poisoning? Japan wanted peace with us in 1945, but the U.S was demanding an uncondinational surrender so that they could change Japanese culture by removing the emperor which Japan had for thousands of years.

Killing innocent babies is NEVER justified. I agree with the OP I felt much more of an attachment to the Quarians plight than to the geth's. When I first played the game if I hadn't found out there was an option for mutual peace I would have chosen the Quarians over the Geth.

[KingZayd]

G Kevin wrote...

Just wanted to throw something in here.

When you side with Geth, Tali/Xen watch their people die in horror.

When you side with Quarian, Legion tries to KILL you.

Looking at it this way. Legion cares only or just cares more for his people than the entire war with the reapers. Hence he is willing to kill the only person that is doing his job to unite the galaxy to fight a common enemy.

Food for thought.

Tali then throws herself off a cliff. She doesn't choose to help you against the reapers. Legion cares about its race, as does Tali.

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 11:32 .

[General User]

KingZayd wrote...
that sounds like an option to me.

Condeming your people to suffer the harsh penalties the Citadel Council imposes on those that draw its ire, is most certainly NOT an option.

KingZayd wrote...
and yes they knew they were sapient, that's why they were afraid and tried to kill them before the geth realised they were sapient.

Incorrect.  The quarians attempted to deactivate the geth because they were afraid that they were becoming sapient.

[Ender Ghost]

General User wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...
There were no quarians under Geth control, they fled... I thought everyone knew that... guess not?

That doen not hold water.  There were billions of quarians on Rannoch alone, and they had other planets too.  The Migrant Fleet was simply not large enough to accomodate that number.

3.Civilians in the Quarian military fleets, bombing military targets in cities, scortched earth tactics (that the Quarians use to), ambushing convoys (which probably have civilians in them too) can all account for a lot of civilian death

But not enough.

4.But that, plus deaths caused by fellow Quarians, and the Quarian military personal that were killed (Plus those civilians who were either caught in the cross fire or used as meatshields by the Quarian government) probably can.

No it cannot.  There is simply not such thing as death on this scale unless someone meant for it to happen.

1. Not when they fled? By then they were, you know, loosing, and decided to leave? You know?

3. Um, plus number 4?

4.http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/misc-you-dont-say-l.png

[pprrff]

I have to butt in here because I think the thread completely missed the point of the story, there are just so many unknown to make any sort of judgement either way. All of the discussions I see are based on conjectures and assumptions.

a) We don't know how long the conflict lasted
We don't know how the war was fought (was WMD deployed? was there massive starvation, was there orbital bombardments that leveled whole cities ....)
c) We don't know how many geth program perished for a comparison on casualty
d) How many quarians were killed by their own?

Were the quarians ruled by fascist dictatorship like in Starship Troopers and just threw their people into stupid battles or nuked their own cities/

Or maybe the geth just the Terminators of the ME universe, slaughtering quarians w/o remorse.

It's all anyone's guess without more fact from the lore.

Modifié par pprrff, 17 avril 2012 - 11:37 .

[Diablos2525]

tractrpl wrote...

moater boat wrote...

How do I know they killed quarian babies? After the Morning war there were only 17 million quarians left alive. I don't know how many there were to begin with, but it stands to reason that there were at least several billion. That means that only a fraction of a percent of all the Quarians survived. The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.

Less than a fraction. 10 billion quarians were alive prior to the morning war. about 0.17% survived. Think about that. Less than 20% of 1% survived. They were exterminated. The only way to get those kind of kill numbers is to go house by house, block by block, cave by cave, and hunt down and kill every walking quarian. Such a kill rate would bring a tear to Harby's eye.

This is how I saw it to, there is a difference between defeating a people in War, and exterminating them. The Quarians were basically subject to a Geth controlled Holocaust.

[Fayfel]

The migrant fleets population is not far off from the number that originally escaped. Chris L'Etoile made it very clear on the old forums that the vast majority of quarians were left behind when the fleet departed. They could only take so many because people are very heavy in terms of cargo. You need life support, supplies, room to house them, etc. What ultimately happened to those left behind is unknown, although Chris suggested that there might be quarian survivors beyond the veil.

[General User]

Dragoni89 wrote...
What other options?

Not killing all the quarians under their rule would be a nice start.

Dragoni89 wrote...
Are we forgeting the Quarains started this?

Nope.

Dragoni89 wrote...
Are we forgetting the Quarains killed Geth sympathsizers themselves.

Nope.

Dragoni89 wrote...
The Quarain government wanted to wipe out geth, pretty damn sure they would wiped off all the Geth if they could.

But instead it worked out the other way around.  Ironic as hell.  But it is what happend.

Dragoni89 wrote...
I think the Geth did the best they could for a race that wanted to wipe them out competely.

By wiping them out compeltley except for a fractional remnant that escaped?  You have remarkably low standards for post-war humanitarian relief efforts.

Dragoni89 wrote...
Put yourself in the position of the Geth first before you open your mouth and talk.

That's good advice for anyone.

Dragoni89 wrote...
At least the Geth had the decency not to chase after the fleets that left the planet. Pretty damn sure the Quarains would not have done the same had they won the war.

Good for them.  Doesn't change what happened.

[KingZayd]

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
that sounds like an option to me.

Condeming your people to suffer the harsh penalties the Citadel Council imposes on those that draw its ire, is most certainly NOT an option.

KingZayd wrote...
and yes they knew they were sapient, that's why they were afraid and tried to kill them before the geth realised they were sapient.

Incorrect.  The quarians attempted to deactivate the geth because they were afraid that they were becoming sapient.

 A bit of hardship vs genocide? there is a choice there, and the quarians made the wrong one. 
Well then sparing the monsters that are capable of such a massacre (they also executed geth sympathisers) is also NOT an option. 

so did they think the  geth were sapient or not sapient? on what side is "becoming sapient". if you're self aware, you're self aware. the quarians still want to exterminate the geth, therefore the quarians should die first.

[Diablos2525]

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Just wanted to throw something in here.

When you side with Geth, Tali/Xen watch their people die in horror.

When you side with Quarian, Legion tries to KILL you.

Looking at it this way. Legion cares only or just cares more for his people than the entire war with the reapers. Hence he is willing to kill the only person that is doing his job to unite the galaxy to fight a common enemy.

Food for thought.

Tali then throws herself off a cliff. She doesn't choose to help you against the reapers. Legion cares about its race, as does Tali.

If all of humanity had just been killed by Robots who are now going to side with Shepard to fight other robots would you care? If you do what's the point? You have no homeworld, no women to have children with, none of your own people to share your cultures and values with. Besides the fact that you'd have side with the people who just killed your entire species. Um yea... Tali's people definitely have the moral high ground here in my opinion. They don't want to wipe out the Geth THEY WANT THEIR homeworld back. The Geth don't want to give it back and are willing to exterminate every last Quarian to see that through.

[General User]

Ender Ghost wrote...

General User wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...
There were no quarians under Geth control, they fled... I thought everyone knew that... guess not?

That doen not hold water.  There were billions of quarians on Rannoch alone, and they had other planets too.  The Migrant Fleet was simply not large enough to accomodate that number.

3.Civilians in the Quarian military fleets, bombing military targets in cities, scortched earth tactics (that the Quarians use to), ambushing convoys (which probably have civilians in them too) can all account for a lot of civilian death

But not enough.

4.But that, plus deaths caused by fellow Quarians, and the Quarian military personal that were killed (Plus those civilians who were either caught in the cross fire or used as meatshields by the Quarian government) probably can.

No it cannot.  There is simply not such thing as death on this scale unless someone meant for it to happen.

1. Not when they fled? By then they were, you know, loosing, and decided to leave? You know?

3. Um, plus number 4?

4.http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/misc-you-dont-say-l.png

I'm afraid I don't follow.  Would you mind using the "quote" feature?

Modifié par General User, 17 avril 2012 - 11:41 .

[Ender Ghost]

General User wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

General User wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...
There were no quarians under Geth control, they fled... I thought everyone knew that... guess not?

That doen not hold water.  There were billions of quarians on Rannoch alone, and they had other planets too.  The Migrant Fleet was simply not large enough to accomodate that number.

3.Civilians in the Quarian military fleets, bombing military targets in cities, scortched earth tactics (that the Quarians use to), ambushing convoys (which probably have civilians in them too) can all account for a lot of civilian death

But not enough.

4.But that, plus deaths caused by fellow Quarians, and the Quarian military personal that were killed (Plus those civilians who were either caught in the cross fire or used as meatshields by the Quarian government) probably can.

No it cannot.  There is simply not such thing as death on this scale unless someone meant for it to happen.

1. Not when they fled? By then they were, you know, loosing, and decided to leave? You know?

3. Um, plus number 4?

4.http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/misc-you-dont-say-l.png

I'm afraid I don't follow.  Would you mind using the "quote" feature?

Something tells me you're trolling at this point...

[KingZayd]

Diablos2525 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Just wanted to throw something in here.

When you side with Geth, Tali/Xen watch their people die in horror.

When you side with Quarian, Legion tries to KILL you.

Looking at it this way. Legion cares only or just cares more for his people than the entire war with the reapers. Hence he is willing to kill the only person that is doing his job to unite the galaxy to fight a common enemy.

Food for thought.

Tali then throws herself off a cliff. She doesn't choose to help you against the reapers. Legion cares about its race, as does Tali.

If all of humanity had just been killed by Robots who are now going to side with Shepard to fight other robots would you care? If you do what's the point? You have no homeworld, no women to have children with, none of your own people to share your cultures and values with. Besides the fact that you'd have side with the people who just killed your entire species. Um yea... Tali's people definitely have the moral high ground here in my opinion. They don't want to wipe out the Geth THEY WANT THEIR homeworld back. The Geth don't want to give it back and are willing to exterminate every last Quarian to see that through.

 I didn't say it was wrong. Rannoch is also the Geth homeworld? Why should Legion care for your struggles if you would doom his race? his actions are just as understandable as Tali's. They do want to exterminate the Geth. As far as Quarians are concerned, the Geth are just things, dangerous things.

The Geth would only have to exterminate every last Quarian, if every last Quarian kept coming at the Geth. Stay out of Geth territory, and the Geth don't care.

[KingZayd]

Sparatus wrote...

Legion tries to kill you like Saren.

Legion is Saren.

Saren was killed by Shepard

Therefore, Legion must also be killed.

Fine, as long as i get to kill Gerrel and those who followed his orders too. THEY SHOT AT ME!

[Karolus_V]

Sparatus wrote...

Legion tries to kill you like Saren.

Legion is Saren.

Saren was killed by Shepard

Therefore, Legion must also be killed.

So has the Quarian admiral who shoots at you , and the gunner, and all the quarians on that ship...

[General User]

KingZayd wrote...
 A bit of hardship vs genocide? there is a choice there, and the quarians made the wrong one.

It was well more than a bit of hardship.  Becoming clients of the Citadel Council would mean the loss of their independence and death of their culture.  That's simply not an acceptable option.

Well then sparing the monsters that are capable of such a massacre (they also executed geth sympathisers) is also NOT an option.

Those are individuals.  It is immoral to exterminate a race of people en masse because of the actions of individual members of that race.

so did they think the  geth were sapient or not sapient? on what side is "becoming sapient".

It's on the "this has gone too far, we need to shut this down NOW" side.

if you're self aware, you're self aware. the quarians still want to exterminate the geth, therefore the quarians should die first.

Whoever reaches should die.

Modifié par General User, 17 avril 2012 - 11:55 .

[KingZayd]

Sparatus wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Fine, as long as i get to kill Gerrel and those who followed his orders too. THEY SHOT AT ME!

The geth have been shooting at me for three games.

and you killed those geth. I didn't get to kill those Quarians.