1392 réponses à ce sujet

[G Kevin]

KingZayd wrote...

the point wasn't that emotions are bad, but that in the situation, her conflicting emotions stopped her from making the right decision in time. Legion was not so impaired.

Ok.

I just see what Legion doing as selfish when the ultimate goal here is to stop the reapers. I forgot who the other person is that replaces Tali on Rannoch but she essentially kills herself as well. So it s not really a character issue, rather it was just the appropriate reaction of an organic compared to a synthetic. Legion acted as if he was emotional. He acted like an organic. I can't say that he was not impaired.

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 02:35 .

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Sparatus wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

I found out later that I made all the wrong choices with those mini Admiral arguments. Apparently siding with the nicer, peace-friendly admirals turns out to lose you War Assets.

Not really. Siding with Raan over Gerral in one of the the disputes saves some civilian ships I believe.

No, siding with Gerrel over Raan nets you more War Assets. As does siding with Xen over Tali.

And people say Renegades get punished.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 18 avril 2012 - 02:36 .

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

the point wasn't that emotions are bad, but that in the situation, her conflicting emotions stopped her from making the right decision in time. Legion was not so impaired.

Ok.

I just see what Legion doing as selfish when the ultimate goal here is to stop the reapers. I forgot who the other person is that replaces Tali on Rannoch but she essentially kills herself as well. So it s not really a character issue, rather it was just the appropriate reaction of an organic compared to a synthetic. Legion acted as if he was emotional. He acted like an organic. I can't say that he was not impaired.

What? The Quarians attacked (When they were wlecome to return in the first place) and Legion is the one who is selfish? What am I missing here? He wanted to reaper code so his people could defend themselves from the Quarians. Yet the Quarians knew that Reapers were coming, so why are they not the selfish ones here?

[KingZayd]

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

the point wasn't that emotions are bad, but that in the situation, her conflicting emotions stopped her from making the right decision in time. Legion was not so impaired.

Ok.

I just see what Legion doing as selfish when the ultimate goal here is to stop the reapers. I forgot who the other person is that replaces Tali on Rannoch but she essentially kills herself as well. So it s not really a character issue, rather it was just the appropriate reaction of an organic compared to a synthetic. Legion acted as if he was emotional. He acted like an organic. I can't say that he was no impaired.

Legion's last act is the most humanlike thing you've ever seen him do. didn't tali have a crush on you at some point? she was my LI at the end of ME2. Her inaction is probably due to shock that the person she cares about the most in the world, wants to wipe out most of the other people she cares about. that's probably quite a bit to handle. Legion never had a crush on you.. (at least not as far as we know )


as for stand-in character.. well there IS something wrong with her.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 02:41 .

[G Kevin]

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

the point wasn't that emotions are bad, but that in the situation, her conflicting emotions stopped her from making the right decision in time. Legion was not so impaired.

Ok.

I just see what Legion doing as selfish when the ultimate goal here is to stop the reapers. I forgot who the other person is that replaces Tali on Rannoch but she essentially kills herself as well. So it s not really a character issue, rather it was just the appropriate reaction of an organic compared to a synthetic. Legion acted as if he was emotional. He acted like an organic. I can't say that he was no impaired.

Legion's last act is the most humanlike thing you've ever seen him do. didn't tali have a crush on you at some point? she was my LI at the end of ME2. Her inaction is probably due to shock that the person she cares about the most in the world, wants to wipe out most of the other people she cares about. that's probably quite a bit to handle. Legion never had a crush on you.. (at least not as far as we know )

That's why I was asking about the other person that replaces Tali. She didn't care for Shepard the same way, yet she killed herself.

In all honesty, it seems, as it was mentioned a couple times earlier, as badly written.

Ender Ghost wrote...

What? The Quarians attacked (When they were wlecome to return in the first place) and Legion is the one who is selfish? What am I missing here? He wanted to reaper code so his people could defend themselves from the Quarians. Yet the Quarians knew that Reapers were coming, so why are they not the selfish ones here?

 

Quarians never got the chance to return peacefully. Remember? All ships that went into the veil were immediately killed. For all anyone knew, the Geth were out to kill all organics.

Legion wanted Reaper code so that the Geth could finally "evolve" from what they were before. I guess the next step in synthetic evolution. The Quarians were warned about the reapers coming, just like you warned the rest of the galaxy. Tell me, who except your close friends and squad, believed you?

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 02:43 .

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

the point wasn't that emotions are bad, but that in the situation, her conflicting emotions stopped her from making the right decision in time. Legion was not so impaired.

Ok.

I just see what Legion doing as selfish when the ultimate goal here is to stop the reapers. I forgot who the other person is that replaces Tali on Rannoch but she essentially kills herself as well. So it s not really a character issue, rather it was just the appropriate reaction of an organic compared to a synthetic. Legion acted as if he was emotional. He acted like an organic. I can't say that he was no impaired.

Legion's last act is the most humanlike thing you've ever seen him do. didn't tali have a crush on you at some point? she was my LI at the end of ME2. Her inaction is probably due to shock that the person she cares about the most in the world, wants to wipe out most of the other people she cares about. that's probably quite a bit to handle. Legion never had a crush on you.. (at least not as far as we know )

That's why I was asking about the other person that replaces Tali. She didn't care for Shepard the same way, yet she killed herself.

In all honesty, it seems, as it was mentioned a couple times earlier, as badly written.

Well they were on the brink of retaking their homeworld and it all just fell through with them, I don't blame the Quarians for being dumb struck more then usual in that case.

[KingZayd]

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

the point wasn't that emotions are bad, but that in the situation, her conflicting emotions stopped her from making the right decision in time. Legion was not so impaired.

Ok.

I just see what Legion doing as selfish when the ultimate goal here is to stop the reapers. I forgot who the other person is that replaces Tali on Rannoch but she essentially kills herself as well. So it s not really a character issue, rather it was just the appropriate reaction of an organic compared to a synthetic. Legion acted as if he was emotional. He acted like an organic. I can't say that he was no impaired.

Legion's last act is the most humanlike thing you've ever seen him do. didn't tali have a crush on you at some point? she was my LI at the end of ME2. Her inaction is probably due to shock that the person she cares about the most in the world, wants to wipe out most of the other people she cares about. that's probably quite a bit to handle. Legion never had a crush on you.. (at least not as far as we know )

That's why I was asking about the other person that replaces Tali. She didn't care for Shepard the same way, yet she killed herself.

In all honesty, it seems, as it was mentioned a couple times earlier, as badly written.

yeah i imagine that part just wasn't particularly well written. the stand-in should definitely have thought. she's not loyal to you at all.

[G Kevin]

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

That's why I was asking about the other person that replaces Tali. She didn't care for Shepard the same way, yet she killed herself.

In all honesty, it seems, as it was mentioned a couple times earlier, as badly written.

yeah i imagine that part just wasn't particularly well written. the stand-in should definitely have thought. she's not loyal to you at all.

Just to be clear I was referring to the whole Geth vs Quarian thing as badly written in ME3. Rannoch was good and all but story wise it seemed to portray all the bad in the Quarians vs all the good in the Geth. I did not see much balance.

And Tali's stand-in does the same thing so I was stating that it was not a character flaw of Tali, rather a flaw in all organics.

[KingZayd]

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

That's why I was asking about the other person that replaces Tali. She didn't care for Shepard the same way, yet she killed herself.

In all honesty, it seems, as it was mentioned a couple times earlier, as badly written.

yeah i imagine that part just wasn't particularly well written. the stand-in should definitely have thought. she's not loyal to you at all.

Just to be clear I was referring to the whole Geth vs Quarian thing as badly written in ME3. Rannoch was good and all but story wise it seemed to portray all the bad in the Quarians vs all the good in the Geth. I did not see much balance.

And Tali's stand-in does the same thing so I was stating that it was not a character flaw of Tali, rather a flaw in all organics.

ah.. then yes.. we disagree. I think the stand-in and should act differently too Tali. I think the rest of it is just fine. Except i still want to kill Gerrel without commiting genocide :/

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

the point wasn't that emotions are bad, but that in the situation, her conflicting emotions stopped her from making the right decision in time. Legion was not so impaired.

Ok.

I just see what Legion doing as selfish when the ultimate goal here is to stop the reapers. I forgot who the other person is that replaces Tali on Rannoch but she essentially kills herself as well. So it s not really a character issue, rather it was just the appropriate reaction of an organic compared to a synthetic. Legion acted as if he was emotional. He acted like an organic. I can't say that he was no impaired.

Legion's last act is the most humanlike thing you've ever seen him do. didn't tali have a crush on you at some point? she was my LI at the end of ME2. Her inaction is probably due to shock that the person she cares about the most in the world, wants to wipe out most of the other people she cares about. that's probably quite a bit to handle. Legion never had a crush on you.. (at least not as far as we know )

That's why I was asking about the other person that replaces Tali. She didn't care for Shepard the same way, yet she killed herself.

In all honesty, it seems, as it was mentioned a couple times earlier, as badly written.

Ender Ghost wrote...

What? The Quarians attacked (When they were wlecome to return in the first place) and Legion is the one who is selfish? What am I missing here? He wanted to reaper code so his people could defend themselves from the Quarians. Yet the Quarians knew that Reapers were coming, so why are they not the selfish ones here?

 

Quarians never got the chance to return peacefully. Remember? All ships that went into the veil were immediately killed. For all anyone knew, the Geth were out to kill all organics.

Legion wanted Reaper code so that the Geth could finally "evolve" from what they were before. I guess the next step in synthetic evolution. The Quarians were warned about the reapers coming, just like you warned the rest of the galaxy. Tell me, who except your close friends and squad, believed you?

They said before that the Quarians were welcome to return (the attacked non-quarians who entered... the Quarians didn't try to enter before), thats why the Geth were suprised when the Quarians attacked.

[G Kevin]

Ender Ghost wrote...

They said before that the Quarians were welcome to return (the attacked non-quarians who entered... the Quarians didn't try to enter before), thats why the Geth were suprised when the Quarians attacked.

Not to sound like a douche but source? Also, how were the Quarians notified that they could return peacefully, especially if no other organics could go there.

KingZayd wrote...

ah.. then yes.. we disagree. I think the stand-in and should act differently too Tali. I think the rest of it is just fine. Except i still want to kill Gerrel without commiting genocide :/

 

But do you see what I mean of how the Tali locked up because of emotions and character flaw issue relate? It was not an issue pertaining to Tali. It was just organics tend to think emotionally (which I think is a valuable asset). Legion acted emotionally but he acted vengefully. I can't exaclty explain what I mean with Legion specifically. Trying to explain every post.

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 02:56 .

[Drummernate]

G Kevin wrote...

Not to sound like a douche but source?

Usually when I post it comes from my laptop...

[Wolven_Soul]

If you want to be technical about it, the Quarians started killing Geth when they started asking questions about their soul.  It was only that instant that the Geth truly became alive so...you could say that every single Geth that was murdered was a child.

Also, the Geth stopped attacking when the Quarians did.  It is their own fault so many died, and I imagine that any infant deaths were incedental, caused by bombings and such.  I seriously doubt that the Geth were going door to door and murdering children with their own two hands.

And considering the Quarians were the only race that the Geth had to learn from, you could chalk it up to bad parenting.

[G Kevin]

Drummernate wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Not to sound like a douche but source?

Usually when I post it comes from my laptop...

<_<

I meant where was that information ever told to the player?

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 02:58 .

[KingZayd]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

They said before that the Quarians were welcome to return (the attacked non-quarians who entered... the Quarians didn't try to enter before), thats why the Geth were suprised when the Quarians attacked.

Not to sound like a douche but source? Also, how were the Quarians notified that they could return peacefully, especially if no other organics could go there.

KingZayd wrote...

ah.. then yes.. we disagree. I think the stand-in and should act differently too Tali. I think the rest of it is just fine. Except i still want to kill Gerrel without commiting genocide :/

 

But do you see what I mean of how the Tali locked up because of emotions and character flaw issue relate? It was not an issue pertaining to Tali. It was just organics tend to think emotionally (which I think is a valuable asset). Legion acted emotionally but he acted vengefully. I can't exaclty explain what I mean with Legion specifically. Trying to explain every post.

I get what you mean/, they both acted emotionally, however Legion acted aggressively to preserve its people, while Tali/newTali acted like a scared little girl. I don't think he acted vengefully. he was genuinely trying to save his people. and he's right, it's not fair that Shepard gets to decide the fate of its people.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 03:02 .

[G Kevin]

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

They said before that the Quarians were welcome to return (the attacked non-quarians who entered... the Quarians didn't try to enter before), thats why the Geth were suprised when the Quarians attacked.

Not to sound like a douche but source? Also, how were the Quarians notified that they could return peacefully, especially if no other organics could go there.

KingZayd wrote...

ah.. then yes.. we disagree. I think the stand-in and should act differently too Tali. I think the rest of it is just fine. Except i still want to kill Gerrel without commiting genocide :/

 

But do you see what I mean of how the Tali locked up because of emotions and character flaw issue relate? It was not an issue pertaining to Tali. It was just organics tend to think emotionally (which I think is a valuable asset). Legion acted emotionally but he acted vengefully. I can't exaclty explain what I mean with Legion specifically. Trying to explain every post.

I get what you mean/, they both acted emotionally, however Legion acted aggressively to preserve its people, while Tali/newTali acted like a scared little girl. I don't think he acted vengefully. he was generally trying to save his people. and he's right, it's not fair that Shepard gets to decide the fate of its people.

Same way that it is not fair that Shepard gets to decide the fate of Tali's people.

That's why I advocate peace. I may not like the Geth as much as the Quarians but I don't think anyone has the power to decide the fate of two great races like that. Which is also one of my reason for why the whole Geth vs Quarian thing was poorly handled.

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

They said before that the Quarians were welcome to return (the attacked non-quarians who entered... the Quarians didn't try to enter before), thats why the Geth were suprised when the Quarians attacked.

Not to sound like a douche but source? Also, how were the Quarians notified that they could return peacefully, especially if no other organics could go there.

KingZayd wrote...

ah.. then yes.. we disagree. I think the stand-in and should act differently too Tali. I think the rest of it is just fine. Except i still want to kill Gerrel without commiting genocide :/

 

But do you see what I mean of how the Tali locked up because of emotions and character flaw issue relate? It was not an issue pertaining to Tali. It was just organics tend to think emotionally (which I think is a valuable asset). Legion acted emotionally but he acted vengefully. I can't exaclty explain what I mean with Legion specifically. Trying to explain every post.

This is one example, there is also Legion on the Flotilla, he talks about how the Geth are willing to make peace (and after the Trial they were probably planning on the Quarians return (Hence the ships with all those pretty consols everywhere.) There was another one but I can't remember where it was.

But yes, Tali acted with emotion (Which, with the Reaper code upgrade, the Geth might have aswell) but legion did not act vengefully, it was defence of himself, and his people from the Quarians, again the reapers did not threaten the Geth, so why would they care about it? The fact that the Geth even considered helping organics shows that they had more heart (figeratively speaking) then the Quarians.

[Drummernate]

G Kevin wrote...

<_<

I meant where was that information ever told to the player?

Troll Successful!

I knew what you meant.

[MakeMineMako]

General User wrote...

MakeMineMako wrote...
Both sides made mistakes during the Morning War. But take note that the Geth stopped when the Quarians stopped and fled.

Does not hold water.  If the geth just stopped, then what happend other quarian worlds?  What happened to the quarians left under geth rule?

MakeMineMako wrote...
As far as the number of casualties goes, we don't know how long the actual war lasted. It could have been years. And in long term conflicts, you will see A LOT of collateral damage.

Not this much.  No factor, or combination of factors, can account for the loss of life on the quarian side except for one: an organized campaign of extermination.

1. It's clearly stated that the Geth declined to pursue and continue hostilities with the Quarians after they packed up and fled. That's all that's needed. Everything else you are bringing up is inconsequential to the arguement. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing. 

2. Bullsh*t. Systematic genocide isn't the only causes of massive loss of life in wartime. Look at the millions lost over six short years from the crude bullets, shells, and bombs of the Second World War. Now imaging a conflict like World War Two, fought under Total War doctrines, using the technology of the Mass Effect universe. A no holds barred war of that nature, lasting any appreciable length of time, will be far, far worse in terms of damage and loss of life.

So, yes, I could see a casualty list numbering in the billions in that instance.

[Ender Ghost]

Drummernate wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

<_<

I meant where was that information ever told to the player?

Troll Successful!

I knew what you meant.

5 star troll *Geth bro fist*

[KingZayd]

G Kevin wrote...

Same way that it is not fair that Shepard gets to decide the fate of Tali's people.

agreed. which is why she should try to stop me.

G Kevin wrote... 
That's why I advocate peace. I may not like the Geth as much as the Quarians but I don't think anyone has the power to decide the fate of two great races like that.

agreed except i prefer the Geth

 

G Kevin wrote... 
Which is also one of my reason for why the whole Geth vs Quarian thing was poorly handled.

here, we disagree. I think the Quarians were handled just fine. Some elements don't want war. Some elements don't want war NOW. Some want war. It's implied that Gerrel and his type  have basically bullied the rest into the war. Half the fleet is in this, just for the purposes of keeping the fleet together.

I really do think newTali and Tali should behave differently though. newTali should be more aggressive in defending her people from this outsider. Tali's momentary confusion is understandable given her history.

[Wolven_Soul]

moater boat wrote...

Aetika wrote...


No, they are only foolish enough to start war over their homeworld, when there is Reaper invasion 

As far as they knew, the Geth were still working with the Reapers. From their point of view, they were doing more than any other race to combat the reaper threat.

Wrong, they knew that the Geth were not with the Reapers anymore.  Legion's mission in ME2 woud have told them this.  Tali would have told them.

[G Kevin]

Ender Ghost wrote...

This is one example, there is also Legion on the Flotilla, he talks about how the Geth are willing to make peace (and after the Trial they were probably planning on the Quarians return (Hence the ships with all those pretty consols everywhere.) There was another one but I can't remember where it was.

But yes, Tali acted with emotion (Which, with the Reaper code upgrade, the Geth might have aswell) but legion did not act vengefully, it was defence of himself, and his people from the Quarians, again the reapers did not threaten the Geth, so why would they care about it? The fact that the Geth even considered helping organics shows that they had more heart (figeratively speaking) then the Quarians.

In that video Legion explains the point well but what I want to know is what has the Geth done to show that they extend their side of the "equation?" I never brought Legion onto the flotilla but if in that case, how could anyone trust Legion that he was advocating peace when in a ship a few kilometers away, the Geth were slaughtering all organics.

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Wrong, they knew that the Geth were not with the Reapers anymore.  Legion's mission in ME2 woud have told them this.  Tali would have told them.

Tali did, but no one believed her. Just as no one believed in the Reaper's existence till they actually showed up.

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Same way that it is not fair that Shepard gets to decide the fate of Tali's people.

agreed. which is why she should try to stop me.

G Kevin wrote... 
That's why I advocate peace. I may not like the Geth as much as the Quarians but I don't think anyone has the power to decide the fate of two great races like that.

agreed except i prefer the Geth

 

G Kevin wrote... 
Which is also one of my reason for why the whole Geth vs Quarian thing was poorly handled.

here, we disagree. I think the Quarians were handled just fine. Some elements don't want war. Some elements don't want war NOW. Some want war. It's implied that Gerrel and his type  have basically bullied the rest into the war. Half the fleet is in this, just for the purposes of keeping the fleet together.

I really do think newTali and Tali should behave differently though. newTali should be more aggressive in defending her people from this outsider. Tali's momentary confusion is understandable given her history.

 

I was arguing that no one should have stopped Shepard especially if they believed in the Reaper threat. Assuming that the Tali stand-in acted as intended, then the inaction of either of them shows that they were just like us "humans." Legion acted logically with a bit of emotion and he that emotion was anger. In other words, Legion would have understood why Shepard did what he did. Instead he just tries to dispose of him so that he can continue.

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 03:17 .

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

This is one example, there is also Legion on the Flotilla, he talks about how the Geth are willing to make peace (and after the Trial they were probably planning on the Quarians return (Hence the ships with all those pretty consols everywhere.) There was another one but I can't remember where it was.

But yes, Tali acted with emotion (Which, with the Reaper code upgrade, the Geth might have aswell) but legion did not act vengefully, it was defence of himself, and his people from the Quarians, again the reapers did not threaten the Geth, so why would they care about it? The fact that the Geth even considered helping organics shows that they had more heart (figeratively speaking) then the Quarians.

In that video Legion explains the point well but what I want to know is what has the Geth done to show that they extend their side of the "equation?" I never brought Legion onto the flotilla but if in that case, how could anyone trust Legion that he was advocating peace when in a ship a few kilometers away, the Geth were slaughtering all organics.

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Wrong, they knew that the Geth were not with the Reapers anymore.  Legion's mission in ME2 woud have told them this.  Tali would have told them.

Tali did, but no one believed her. Just as no one believed in the Reaper's existence till they actually showed up.

What if you woke up in a ship far away from home to find you were experimented on (To them it was probably torturous) and the people who did it were scrambiling to kill you before you even realized what was going in. Wouldn't you be scared? Wouldn't you fight back? (But legion basicly says they are open to peace but the Quarians have attacked 100% of the time when they thought they had an advantage.)