1392 réponses à ce sujet

[G Kevin]

Ender Ghost wrote...

What if you woke up in a ship far away from home to find you were experimented on (To them it was probably torturous) and the people who did it were scrambiling to kill you before you even realized what was going in. Wouldn't you be scared? Wouldn't you fight back? (But legion basicly says they are open to peace but the Quarians have attacked 100% of the time when they thought they had an advantage.)

They were being put together for testing but they "woke up" and killed everyone they saw. So by their very nature, synthetics would kill every organic they saw?

EDIT: To answer you directly:

Wouldn't you be scared? I would be confused, not that scared, if at all.

Wouldn't you fight back? Why would I fight back, what have they done to me.

"But legion basicly says they are open to peace but the Quarians have attacked 100% of the time when they thought they had an advantage." Didn't he mean organics attack the Geth 100% of the time they thought they had and advantage?

Also, where did it say that they were being tortured?

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 03:24 .

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

What if you woke up in a ship far away from home to find you were experimented on (To them it was probably torturous) and the people who did it were scrambiling to kill you before you even realized what was going in. Wouldn't you be scared? Wouldn't you fight back? (But legion basicly says they are open to peace but the Quarians have attacked 100% of the time when they thought they had an advantage.)

They were being put together for testing but they "woke up" and killed everyone they saw. So by their very nature, synthetics would kill every organic they saw?

Well if the humans kidnapped by the collectors managed to wake up, escape and kill all the collectors there. Would all humans be deemed as murderers? Would the entire human race be condemned due to self defence?
The Geth were just defending themselves from the Quarians who were trying to kill them at that point.

[KingZayd]

In the mass effect universe, shepard is still 1 (wo)man. A pretty awesome one, but killing the Shepard doesn't logically = dooming the galaxy. Naturally for us, it has to be different because we're the big damn hero.

I maintain, that Legion was right.

If the Citadel races got together and decided that humanity should be exterminated for some reason (let's say Cerberus shows that humans cannot be trusted) I would hope you wouldn't just accept it because the Reapers are coming and civil war increases the probability that the reapers win?

[G Kevin]

KingZayd wrote...

In the mass effect universe, shepard is still 1 (wo)man. A pretty awesome one, but killing the Shepard doesn't logically = dooming the galaxy. Naturally for us, it has to be different because we're the big damn hero.

I maintain, that Legion was right.

If the Citadel races got together and decided that humanity should be exterminated for some reason (let's say Cerberus shows that humans cannot be trusted) I would hope you wouldn't just accept it because the Reapers are coming and civil war increases the probability that the reapers win?

Shepard was not special, ok. Then why was he in any authority to decide the fate of two species?

If anything I would not side with the Reapers. Also that hypothetical situation does not make sense. The whole Quarian vs Geth dilemna was about synthetics' and organics' co-existance.

Ender Ghost wrote...

Well if the humans kidnapped by the collectors managed to wake up, escape and kill all the collectors there. Would all humans be deemed as murderers? Would the entire human race be condemned due to self defence?
The Geth were just defending themselves from the Quarians who were trying to kill them at that point.

 

The humans don't have a reputation of killing every other organic species without any explanation as to why.

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

The people that support the Geth fail to realise that, when the Quarians tired to kill the Geth, they were a people divided, when the Geth stuck back the Geth were united.

50% Of a Race wanting to commit Genocide vs 100%

Funny how the threat of being driven to extinction will unify a people isn' it?  

Also, the Geth did not want to commit Genocide.  If they did, they would not have allowed the last Quarians to flee.

 

Yet it was somehow ok for them to kill any organic species that entered the veil without even allowing them to turn back.

Drummernate wrote...

G Kevin wrote...


Also, where did it say that they were being tortured?

When you first bring Legion/Geth VI on the Normandy it is Xen (I think) that says "What the heck is this?!?!? Hmmm maybe I could disassemble it and find a weakness of the Geth Consensus?"

Seems like torturous words to me.

Disassemble? NO DISASSEMBLE NUMBER FIVE!!!!

 

Wasn't Xen the "crazy" one? Also, I meant where on the other Quarian ship was there evidence of torture?

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 03:31 .

[Wolven_Soul]

Terrorize69 wrote...

The people that support the Geth fail to realise that, when the Quarians tired to kill the Geth, they were a people divided, when the Geth stuck back the Geth were united.

50% Of a Race wanting to commit Genocide vs 100%

Funny how the threat of being driven to extinction will unify a people isn' it? 

Also, the Geth did not want to commit Genocide.  If they did, they would not have allowed the last Quarians to flee.

[Drummernate]

G Kevin wrote...


Also, where did it say that they were being tortured?

When you first bring Legion/Geth VI on the Normandy it is Xen (I think) that says "What the heck is this?!?!? Hmmm maybe I could disassemble it and find a weakness of the Geth Consensus?"

Seems like torturous words to me.

Disassemble? NO DISASSEMBLE NUMBER FIVE!!!!

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

In the mass effect universe, shepard is still 1 (wo)man. A pretty awesome one, but killing the Shepard doesn't logically = dooming the galaxy. Naturally for us, it has to be different because we're the big damn hero.

I maintain, that Legion was right.

If the Citadel races got together and decided that humanity should be exterminated for some reason (let's say Cerberus shows that humans cannot be trusted) I would hope you wouldn't just accept it because the Reapers are coming and civil war increases the probability that the reapers win?

Shepard was not special, ok. Then why was he in any authority to decide the fate of two species?

If anything I would not side with the Reapers. Also that hypothetical situation does not make sense. The whole Quarian vs Geth dilemna was about synthetics' and organics' co-existance.

Ender Ghost wrote...

Well if the humans kidnapped by the collectors managed to wake up, escape and kill all the collectors there. Would all humans be deemed as murderers? Would the entire human race be condemned due to self defence?
The Geth were just defending themselves from the Quarians who were trying to kill them at that point.

 

The humans don't have a reputation of killing every other organic species without any explanation as to why.

Cerberus? First Contact war?
By your logic the human race should be killed because we fought the Turians and we have an extremist group that is killing other races because they are inferior to humans.

[Wolven_Soul]

moater boat wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Geth were never made to be kill-bots, they don't understand the concept of prisoners.
Also if I was a betting man I would put money on the majority of civilian casualties being because of Quarians or lost land rather than being executed.

Finally, the war is the Quarians fault. Fact.
It was started by the Quarians. Fact.
It ended when the Quarians stopped attacking/left. Fact.

Every single casualty in the war was the fault of the Quarians, not the Geth.

It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

They were not merely machines at that point.  They were alive, they were sentient.  If someone pulls a gun on you, says he is going to kill you, are you really going to just stand there and accept it? 

As for them attacking other ships, they were defending their territory.

[Ender Ghost]

And why would they not destroy ships that entered the Veil and not give them a chance to turn back? If someone broke into my house I'm not going to stand there and wait to see if they turn back.

[G Kevin]

Ender Ghost wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

The humans don't have a reputation of killing every other organic species without any explanation as to why.

Cerberus? First Contact war?
By your logic the human race should be killed because we fought the Turians and we have an extremist group that is killing other races because they are inferior to humans.

I am not holding the heretics responsible for the predicament the Geth are in now. What, the Geth on the Quarian ships were heretics? So the Geth that woke up on the ship are magically all heretics? The Contact War was rectificed with peace. The council didn's step in choose one side over the other. The turians were winning but the council saved our asses.

Ender Ghost wrote...

And why would they not destroy ships that entered the Veil and not give them a chance to turn back? If someone broke into my house I'm not going to stand there and wait to see if they turn back.

 

But you would tell them to leave would you not? Especially if they were naive and did not know what was going on.

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 03:35 .

[KingZayd]

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

In the mass effect universe, shepard is still 1 (wo)man. A pretty awesome one, but killing the Shepard doesn't logically = dooming the galaxy. Naturally for us, it has to be different because we're the big damn hero.

I maintain, that Legion was right.

If the Citadel races got together and decided that humanity should be exterminated for some reason (let's say Cerberus shows that humans cannot be trusted) I would hope you wouldn't just accept it because the Reapers are coming and civil war increases the probability that the reapers win?

Shepard was not special, ok. Then why was he in any authority to decide the fate of two species?

If anything I would not side with the Reapers. Also that hypothetical situation does not make sense. The whole Quarian vs Geth dilemna was about synthetics' and organics' co-existance.

The hypothetical situation does make sense. Since we're talking about Saving your race vs Saving the galaxy that doesn't want your race in it. Shepard ends up deciding in the end just because he's strong.

Legion wanting to save his people, even if you don't agree that his people don't deserve to live, doesn't diminish the Geth's right to live. that's just stupid.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 03:36 .

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

The humans don't have a reputation of killing every other organic species without any explanation as to why.

Cerberus? First Contact war?
By your logic the human race should be killed because we fought the Turians and we have an extremist group that is killing other races because they are inferior to humans.

I am not holding the heretics responsible for the predicament the Geth are in now. What, the Geth on the Quarian ships were heretics? So the Geth that woke up on the ship are magically all heretics? The Contact War was rectificed with peace. The council didn's step in choose one side over the other. The turians were winning but the council saved our asses.

No, the Geth on the ship were not heretics (But really no one knows, they may have been heretics before they were captured), but the morning war ended with peace aswell, only the council didn't help the Quarians, and the Geth decided not to finish off the Quarians... um... not sure where to go from here....

EDIT

No I wouldn't for me, everyone knows that breaking into a house is illegal, for them, the whole galaxy knew that it was Geth space, the only people who went there were either adventure hunters or pirates, which both equally deserve to be shot just for the sheer reason of stupidity and ill will (See what I did there?).

Modifié par Ender Ghost, 18 avril 2012 - 03:40 .

[111987]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

As for them attacking other ships, they were defending their territory.

From people that they didn't know were a threat, and as far as we know, made no aggressive actions. Not a great way to make peace, as their purported desires are.

[G Kevin]

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

In the mass effect universe, shepard is still 1 (wo)man. A pretty awesome one, but killing the Shepard doesn't logically = dooming the galaxy. Naturally for us, it has to be different because we're the big damn hero.

I maintain, that Legion was right.

If the Citadel races got together and decided that humanity should be exterminated for some reason (let's say Cerberus shows that humans cannot be trusted) I would hope you wouldn't just accept it because the Reapers are coming and civil war increases the probability that the reapers win?

Shepard was not special, ok. Then why was he in any authority to decide the fate of two species?

If anything I would not side with the Reapers. Also that hypothetical situation does not make sense. The whole Quarian vs Geth dilemna was about synthetics' and organics' co-existance.

The hypothetical situation does make sense. Since we're talking about Saving your race vs Saving the galaxy that doesn't want your race in it. Shepard ends up deciding in the end just because he's strong.

Legion wanting to save his people, even if you don't agree that his people don't deserve to live, doesn't diminish the Geth's right to live. that's just stupid.

The galaxy seemed fine when the Geth fleet came in to help them take back earth. Everyone trusts Shepard to the point that they will agree with him. Legion knew that. I am not saying Legion is in the wrong to wanting to save his own people. I am just saying that trying to kill Shepard is not the way.

[Drummernate]

G Kevin wrote...

But you would tell them to leave would you not? Especially if they were naive and did not know what was going on.

Not if they had armed ships....

That is like having a guy randomly walk into your house with an assault rifle slung around his back and just looking around....

Pretty sure I would bust a few caps into someone doing that.

Modifié par Drummernate, 18 avril 2012 - 03:41 .

[Ender Ghost]

111987 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

As for them attacking other ships, they were defending their territory.

From people that they didn't know were a threat, and as far as we know, made no aggressive actions. Not a great way to make peace, as their purported desires are.

Colony ships? They were going to steal the home world of the creators.
Mining ships? Going to steal the Geth's (or the Quarians) resources.
Ships with armaments? Why would they be armed if they didn't mean any harm.

[KingZayd]

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

In the mass effect universe, shepard is still 1 (wo)man. A pretty awesome one, but killing the Shepard doesn't logically = dooming the galaxy. Naturally for us, it has to be different because we're the big damn hero.

I maintain, that Legion was right.

If the Citadel races got together and decided that humanity should be exterminated for some reason (let's say Cerberus shows that humans cannot be trusted) I would hope you wouldn't just accept it because the Reapers are coming and civil war increases the probability that the reapers win?

Shepard was not special, ok. Then why was he in any authority to decide the fate of two species?

If anything I would not side with the Reapers. Also that hypothetical situation does not make sense. The whole Quarian vs Geth dilemna was about synthetics' and organics' co-existance.

The hypothetical situation does make sense. Since we're talking about Saving your race vs Saving the galaxy that doesn't want your race in it. Shepard ends up deciding in the end just because he's strong.

Legion wanting to save his people, even if you don't agree that his people don't deserve to live, doesn't diminish the Geth's right to live. that's just stupid.

The galaxy seemed fine when the Geth fleet came in to help them take back earth. Everyone trusts Shepard to the point that they will agree with him. Legion knew that. I am not saying Legion is in the wrong to wanting to save his own people. I am just saying that trying to kill Shepard is not the way.

at that point, there is no other way. Shepard has already decided "no"

[Drummernate]

G Kevin wrote...

Legion knew that. I am not saying Legion is in the wrong to wanting to save his own people. I am just saying that trying to kill Shepard is not the way.

From a Geth's point of view that was the only time they would EVER have to be truly free.

Never again if Shepard won the war on the Reapers and destroyed/controlled them would they be able to upload the code from dead Reapers.

Really though, Geth would be left unaffected by Reapers, so they have no reason to have organics at all in the end... even Shepard. However this does not mean that they won't co-exist.

Modifié par Drummernate, 18 avril 2012 - 03:46 .

[G Kevin]

Ender Ghost wrote...

No, the Geth on the ship were not heretics (But really no one knows, they may have been heretics before they were captured), but the morning war ended with peace aswell, only the council didn't help the Quarians, and the Geth decided not to finish off the Quarians... um... not sure where to go from here....

EDIT

No I wouldn't for me, everyone knows that breaking into a house is illegal, for them, the whole galaxy knew that it was Geth space, the only people who went there were either adventure hunters or pirates, which both equally deserve to be shot just for the sheer reason of stupidity and ill will (See what I did there?).

So if a 15 year old teen walks into your house with no intention of harm to you. You would kill him?

Ok, ok, the house analogy was not perfect. Point was, the Geth did not turn away the ships. They shot them on sight. There was not a "No Trespassing" sign there. And no it was not only pirates or hunters, it was anyone. In mass effect 2, a Quarian ship was shot down by the Geth in the veil. Granted it was a scout ship but if the Geth welcomed the Quarians back then why shoot them down. Does not seem like peace was warranted here.

Drummernate wrote...

From a Geth's point of view that was the only time they would EVER have to be truly free.

Never again if Shepard won the war on the Reapers and destroyed/controlled them would they be able to upload the code from dead Reapers.

Really though, Geth would be left unaffected by Reapers, so they have no reason to have organics at all in the end... even Shepard. However this does not mean that they won't co-exist.

 

Legion could have kept the code with him. It was a code after all.

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 03:51 .

[Chaoswind]

111987 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

As for them attacking other ships, they were defending their territory.

From people that they didn't know were a threat, and as far as we know, made no aggressive actions. Not a great way to make peace, as their purported desires are.

Terminus systems

You can bet your ass those ships didn't have Asari dancers

Also REMEMBER that the Heretics instaled themselves in the veil and around it shortly after the morning war, for all we know all those ships where destroyed by the Heretics.

To reach Geth Space, you HAD to go though Heretic space, and the Heretics destroyed anyone that got close because Nazara spend 200 years hidding in the veil and putting up his plan, and the Geth spend those 200 years building up a ton of weapons in case Nazara and the Heretics wanted to convince them that they where right (with force)

[G Kevin]

Chaoswind wrote...

111987 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

As for them attacking other ships, they were defending their territory.

From people that they didn't know were a threat, and as far as we know, made no aggressive actions. Not a great way to make peace, as their purported desires are.

Terminus systems

You can bet your ass those ships didn't have Asari dancers

Also REMEMBER that the Heretics instaled themselves in the veil and around it shortly after the morning war, for all we know all those ships where destroyed by the Heretics.

To reach Geth Space, you HAD to go though Heretic space, and the Heretics destroyed anyone that got close because Nazara spend 200 years hidding in the veil and putting up his plan, and the Geth spend those 200 years building up a ton of weapons in case Nazara and the Heretics wanted to convince them that they where right (with force)

Fair point. However, the Geth were monitoring all extranet communications, especially the ones about them. If Geth wanted peace and the Heretics stopped them, woudn't the Geth at least do something about that? If someone is slandering your name and stopped you from achieved a goal, woudn't you find a way around that?

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 03:54 .

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

No, the Geth on the ship were not heretics (But really no one knows, they may have been heretics before they were captured), but the morning war ended with peace aswell, only the council didn't help the Quarians, and the Geth decided not to finish off the Quarians... um... not sure where to go from here....

EDIT

No I wouldn't for me, everyone knows that breaking into a house is illegal, for them, the whole galaxy knew that it was Geth space, the only people who went there were either adventure hunters or pirates, which both equally deserve to be shot just for the sheer reason of stupidity and ill will (See what I did there?).

So if a 15 year old teen walks into your house with no intention of harm to you. You would kill him?

Ok, ok, the house analogy was not perfect. Point was, the Geth did not turn away the ships. They shot them on sight. There was not a "No Trespassing" sign there. And no it was not only pirates or hunters, it was anyone. In mass effect 2, a Quarian ship was shot down by the Geth in the veil. Granted it was a scout ship but if the Geth welcomed the Quarians back then why shoot them down. Does not seem like peace was warranted here.

15 year olds have commit murder before, if they broke in AT ALL, I'd shoot them on sight (But yes that analogy isn't perfect)
But there didn't NEED to be a sign there, everyone knew what happened there and they should have had the common sense not to go there.
As for the Quarian scout ship, they probably knew it was there to spy on them, why would they send a single scout ship there, if the Quarians wanted peace the would have sent an Embassary ship. The geth probably thought they sent their entire fleet there because the reapers were invading and they wanted help.

[Wolven_Soul]

tractrpl wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I was delighted to establish peace between the quarians and the geth. However, the excuse that the geth were "just defending themselves" is very shaky. That's like saying Hitler decimated 7 million Jews cause they were "just defending themselves".

What do you expect?  They may have been alive and self aware at that point, but they still thought like machines.  Even then they did not want to completely wipe the Quarians out.  But for as long as the war went on, they likely only saw one way to win it.

[Chaoswind]

So your brother becomes a serial killer, would you seriously stop him because he is sullying your last name or because is the right thing to do?


Enter the Geth that honestly don't know what is the right thing to do, and their reaction will be of confusion 100% of the time, they where gathering data to reach a decision about the Heretics.

[Drummernate]

G Kevin wrote...

Legion could have kept the code with him. It was a code after all.

From what I gathered they used the dying reaper to help upload the code.

Otherwise why didn't they just wait until they were safe back on the Normandy?

Could be bad writing, but I assume that I am right about it.