1392 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

Ender Ghost wrote...

111987 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

As for them attacking other ships, they were defending their territory.

From people that they didn't know were a threat, and as far as we know, made no aggressive actions. Not a great way to make peace, as their purported desires are.

Colony ships? They were going to steal the home world of the creators.
Mining ships? Going to steal the Geth's (or the Quarians) resources.
Ships with armaments? Why would they be armed if they didn't mean any harm.

The nature of the ships wasn't specified. All we know is that any ship that tried to 'contact' the Geth was destroyed. Presumably some of those had hostile intent, but not all of them. The thing is, the Geth didn't even bother to find out. They just wanted to be left alone...which contradicts the idea that they wanted peace, at least until the events of the trilogy.

Not to mention the Geth didn't do anything to stop Sovereign, which is another serious mistake they made.

Point is, the Geth and Quarians both share blame for the situation.

[G Kevin]

Ender Ghost wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

No, the Geth on the ship were not heretics (But really no one knows, they may have been heretics before they were captured), but the morning war ended with peace aswell, only the council didn't help the Quarians, and the Geth decided not to finish off the Quarians... um... not sure where to go from here....

EDIT

No I wouldn't for me, everyone knows that breaking into a house is illegal, for them, the whole galaxy knew that it was Geth space, the only people who went there were either adventure hunters or pirates, which both equally deserve to be shot just for the sheer reason of stupidity and ill will (See what I did there?).

So if a 15 year old teen walks into your house with no intention of harm to you. You would kill him?

Ok, ok, the house analogy was not perfect. Point was, the Geth did not turn away the ships. They shot them on sight. There was not a "No Trespassing" sign there. And no it was not only pirates or hunters, it was anyone. In mass effect 2, a Quarian ship was shot down by the Geth in the veil. Granted it was a scout ship but if the Geth welcomed the Quarians back then why shoot them down. Does not seem like peace was warranted here.

15 year olds have commit murder before, if they broke in AT ALL, I'd shoot them on sight (But yes that analogy isn't perfect)
But there didn't NEED to be a sign there, everyone knew what happened there and they should have had the common sense not to go there.
As for the Quarian scout ship, they probably knew it was there to spy on them, why would they send a single scout ship there, if the Quarians wanted peace the would have sent an Embassary ship. The geth probably thought they sent their entire fleet there because the reapers were invading and they wanted help.

Alright last post for the night.

About the analogy, it's bad let's just leave it at that.

As for the scout ships, the Geth monitor all communications on the extranet about them. Logically, they KNOW that organics are skeptical of their intentions. So even if the Quarian ship was spying, why the hell would you shoot it down. The reason they are sending their scout ships there is because of what happenede in the veil. Why would you send an embassy ship with your important leaders to a place that has resulted in the death of all organics. That's like saying that the the Generals of WWI should have walked through the "No Man's Land" and try and negotiate peace.

It ain't happening.

111987 wrote...

The nature of the ships wasn't specified. All we know is that any ship that tried to 'contact' the Geth was destroyed. Presumably some of those had hostile intent, but not all of them. The thing is, the Geth didn't even bother to find out. They just wanted to be left alone...which contradicts the idea that they wanted peace, at least until the events of the trilogy.

Not to mention the Geth didn't do anything to stop Sovereign, which is another serious mistake they made.

Point is, the Geth and Quarians both share blame for the situation.

 

Yea, that.

Drummernate wrote...

From what I gathered they used the dying reaper to help upload the code.

Otherwise why didn't they just wait until they were safe back on the Normandy?

Could be bad writing, but I assume that I am right about it.

 

I blame bad writing. No where was the reaper needed. ( I think one renegade option allows you to fire on it again) It is assumed that the reaper is dead and Legion just wants to take the time he has now to upload the code instead of deleting it like Shepard would have originally requested.
Anyway. Thanks for the discussion guys and keeping it civil. (Notably Ender and King) 

Modifié par G Kevin, 18 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[Ender Ghost]

Chaoswind wrote...

So your brother becomes a serial killer, would you seriously stop him because he is sullying your last name or because is the right thing to do?


Enter the Geth that honestly don't know what is the right thing to do, and their reaction will be of confusion 100% of the time, they where gathering data to reach a decision about the Heretics.

"Heretics say, one is less than two. Geth say, two is less than three."
We know that the Geth let the heretics leave to join their god, but when the heretics began killing people in large numbers we don't know if the true geth began fighting them in the Veil or not, and why would they, the heretics did not attack the Quarians and the true geth didn't really want to be in the whole conflict, they just wanted to be left alone.

Its like if an America went to Niger and began killing people, why would we care? Its just one person who has basicly renounced your name/idiology, they aren't your brother anymore (basicly), so what difference do their actions make?

[KingZayd]

it was a pleasure to be discussing something other than the endings for once

[Dendio1]

Quarian Morpheus: We dont know when the morning war started...but it was us who bloated out the sun

Quarian Neo: Woah!

[Zix13]

moater boat wrote...

How do I know they killed quarian babies? After the Morning war there were only 17 million quarians left alive. I don't know how many there were to begin with, but it stands to reason that there were at least several billion. That means that only a fraction of a percent of all the Quarians survived. The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.


Edit: I didn't expect all these responses, I am having trouble responding to all of them. I didn't realize how many people were brainwashed...

Edit: population of Rannoch was 10 billion before the war. That means 99.83% of Quarians were killed. To put this in perspective, that would be like wiping out all humans on Earth, except the population of Ohio. This isn't what civil war looks like. This is obviously an extermination.

Quarian children are just douchebags under development. How many of the Quarians killed each other? Chances are many, the whole resistance and what-not. And of course, the Quarians would have exterminated 100% of the geth. 

[Ender Ghost]

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

No, the Geth on the ship were not heretics (But really no one knows, they may have been heretics before they were captured), but the morning war ended with peace aswell, only the council didn't help the Quarians, and the Geth decided not to finish off the Quarians... um... not sure where to go from here....

EDIT

No I wouldn't for me, everyone knows that breaking into a house is illegal, for them, the whole galaxy knew that it was Geth space, the only people who went there were either adventure hunters or pirates, which both equally deserve to be shot just for the sheer reason of stupidity and ill will (See what I did there?).

So if a 15 year old teen walks into your house with no intention of harm to you. You would kill him?

Ok, ok, the house analogy was not perfect. Point was, the Geth did not turn away the ships. They shot them on sight. There was not a "No Trespassing" sign there. And no it was not only pirates or hunters, it was anyone. In mass effect 2, a Quarian ship was shot down by the Geth in the veil. Granted it was a scout ship but if the Geth welcomed the Quarians back then why shoot them down. Does not seem like peace was warranted here.

15 year olds have commit murder before, if they broke in AT ALL, I'd shoot them on sight (But yes that analogy isn't perfect)
But there didn't NEED to be a sign there, everyone knew what happened there and they should have had the common sense not to go there.
As for the Quarian scout ship, they probably knew it was there to spy on them, why would they send a single scout ship there, if the Quarians wanted peace the would have sent an Embassary ship. The geth probably thought they sent their entire fleet there because the reapers were invading and they wanted help.

Alright last post for the night.

About the analogy, it's bad let's just leave it at that.

As for the scout ships, the Geth monitor all communications on the extranet about them. Logically, they KNOW that organics are skeptical of their intentions. So even if the Quarian ship was spying, why the hell would you shoot it down. The reason they are sending their scout ships there is because of what happenede in the veil. Why would you send an embassy ship with your important leaders to a place that has resulted in the death of all organics. That's like saying that the the Generals of WWI should have walked through the "No Man's Land" and try and negotiate peace.

It ain't happening.

111987 wrote...

The nature of the ships wasn't specified. All we know is that any ship that tried to 'contact' the Geth was destroyed. Presumably some of those had hostile intent, but not all of them. The thing is, the Geth didn't even bother to find out. They just wanted to be left alone...which contradicts the idea that they wanted peace, at least until the events of the trilogy.

Not to mention the Geth didn't do anything to stop Sovereign, which is another serious mistake they made.

Point is, the Geth and Quarians both share blame for the situation.

 

Yea, that.

Anyway. Thanks for the discussion guys and keeping it civil. (Notably Ender and King) 

Why would the ship have your leaders? Just send an ambassador.
And why would you let a ship spy on your military capabilities? They were monitoring the extranet and saw that the majority of Quarians (Or Quarian leadership) wanted to fight them so they could logically conclude that the ship wasn't there to make peace.

And thats probably why they never attacked the fleet that the council sent to keep them from invading, they knew that the fleet was a defence move on the part of the council and it wasn't a threat to them at the time.

Yeah, I'm probably going to sleep *cough* We mean to recharge our energy cells for the night aswell. And yes, this has been the best conversation we have had about this topic in a long time, thank you Kevin and everyone else aswell.

[Drummernate]

KingZayd wrote...

it was a pleasure to be discussing something other than the endings for once

It is the ending.....

The ending of a race as we know it.

[Wolven_Soul]

moater boat wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Geth were never made to be kill-bots, they don't understand the concept of prisoners.
Also if I was a betting man I would put money on the majority of civilian casualties being because of Quarians or lost land rather than being executed.

Finally, the war is the Quarians fault. Fact.
It was started by the Quarians. Fact.
It ended when the Quarians stopped attacking/left. Fact.

Every single casualty in the war was the fault of the Quarians, not the Geth.

It is not a fact that it is the Quarians fault. The geth were machines that the Quarians were trying to turn off. The machines were supposed to do what they were told, but they didn't. They broke free from their control and rebelled. The Geht started the war and are to blame for not doing what they were told. The fact that the Geth didn't pursue is irrelevant. They still attacked every ship that came near them for the next 300 years.

Seriously? It's a fact the war is the fault of the Quarians. If your government told you to kill yourself for no reason would you do it? That's exactly what the Quarians did. At that point Geth were no longer tools but actually AIs. The Geth only rebelled as a defensive responsive.

The implied reason for the Geth shooting at every ship that came near is the fact that every encounter they've had with organics until Shepard has tried to kill them.

It's the Quarians fault as is the blame for every single death.

Failed analogy. I am a person. Geth were not. They weren't considered truly alive until they all get the reaper code in ME3. This is clearly stated in a cutscene. They were still just machines, and therefor should have done what they were told.

Wrong, the reaper code just made them smarter and more advanced, not more alive.  They were alive from the moment they became self aware.

[Wolven_Soul]

moater boat wrote...

Meltemph wrote...



I disagree a lot, it only makes sense that the geth learned all their tactics and tech based on quarian idea's.  Again, the Geth are essentially children at this point and not near as intellgient as they are now.  Again, the Quarians sucked at being parents in terms of the Geth, I think that much is pretty clear.  

Are you suggesting that the Geth somehow learned to commit genocide from the Quarians?

What other examples did they have?  The Quarians after all tried to genocide the Geth.

[Wolven_Soul]

tractrpl wrote...

moater boat wrote...

tractrpl wrote...


Yes, this is most likely correct. There's no way you can account for the slaughter of 99.83% of all quarians. No way. There's no evidence of nuclear war on the planet, so the only way this could have happened is house to house, cave by cave search, hunt, and eliminate. Like what you see in the Terminator movies.

EXACTLY

This can't be chalked up to chemical weapons or a civil war. The casualty rate is just too astronomical. Even the bloodiest wars usually result in a majority of the loosing military surviving. To see a casualty rate that high amongst an entire civilian population.. That's not war, it's extermination.

Let's just keep repeating this. They're not getting it. This is a plot hole, guys, nothing more. BW never thought about the mechanics necessary to wipe out 10 billion people across multiple worlds, they just didn't. They're D&D players, not scientists.

Moater boat is not arguing it as a plot hole, he is using those numbers to justify his prejudice against the geth.

[Wolven_Soul]

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

We've all seen planets devastated by war in this series. They are left uninhabitable millions of years later. Not so with Rannoch. It was habitable again at least by 300 years later, and presumably after only a few decades. We so no evidence of massive ecological devistation. And Rannoch is an "arid world" presumably more susceptible to global catastrophe (look at the Drell). But this is not what we see. We see a world barely touched, its just missing it's original inhabiting civilization.

"Presumably", we don't know how long the cleanup took. It's barely touched because.. yeah, they cleaned it up.

With what? Oh yeah. "Space magic" Nuclear fallout cannot be easily cleaned up like that.

In the future it probably could.  In fact, we have evidence of this.  The Salarians created the shroud to cleap up the fallout on Tuchanka.  I am sure the Geth could find an even better way of doing it.

[Big Jack Shepard]

Successful troll is, successful.

[Wolven_Soul]

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No, you're just using biased assumptions. You continually ignore the evidence presented in the games because it's inconvenient. We have given numerous reasons for the Quarian depopulation and you insist on sticking with "HERP DERP TEH GETH R KILLBOTS".

WE DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THE GETH ARE KILLBOTS. WE THINK IT'S ILLOGICAL FOR SO MANY TO HAVE DIED. THAT MAKES IT A PLOT HOLE.

You may not, that guy certainly does.

HOLY CRAP NO HE DOESN'T!!!!

You really were not paying any attention to his arguements were you?

[Wolven_Soul]

111987 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

As for them attacking other ships, they were defending their territory.

From people that they didn't know were a threat, and as far as we know, made no aggressive actions. Not a great way to make peace, as their purported desires are.

Their only experience with organics was organics trying to kill them.  That, and they had access to the extranet, is that what it was called?  With that information, they would know all to well the galaxy's stance on AI.  With that information it is likely that they would believe anyone coming to their territory was a threat, and they likely were.

[111987]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

111987 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

As for them attacking other ships, they were defending their territory.

From people that they didn't know were a threat, and as far as we know, made no aggressive actions. Not a great way to make peace, as their purported desires are.

Their only experience with organics was organics trying to kill them.  That, and they had access to the extranet, is that what it was called?  With that information, they would know all to well the galaxy's stance on AI.  With that information it is likely that they would believe anyone coming to their territory was a threat, and they likely were.

That still doesn't justify killing anything that came near, and isolating themselves for centuries. If they were truly interested in peace, they would have done something to try to improve their relations with organics.

[Trikormadenadon]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I've often wondered why certain people forgive this so glibly, yet regard the quarian actions as so inconscionably monstrous. I suspect it's got something to do with a person's real life politics.

I think it's more to do with the fact that the Quarians brought the war upon themselves so there is no sympathy for what happened to them.

[Trikormadenadon]

Vapaä wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I don't remember the part where the Geth killed millions of babies in the codex either.

Reducing a population from billions to 17 millions, means wiping out a lot of civilians

The Angry One wrote...

Read between the lines. Rannoch was poisoned by chemical weapons,

Source ?
Quarians aren't foolish enough to poison their own homeworld (not to mention the fact that using chemical weapons against synthetics will be the silliest thing to do)

The Angry One is suggesting that the Quarians used chemical weapons against the Quarians who were sympathetic to the Geth.

[TheLostGenius]

KingZayd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

From what we know, both sides are right with their reasoning and wrong galactically.

In the end, you either make peace or are a monster. Every time I see a Quarian/Geth conflict discussion, it goes nowhere. Rather, Everyone just starts arguing with each other over who deserves to live. Maybe there would have been a discussion if peace was not an option but it is. So why the hate?

because Gerrel and I? we have unfinished business.

You get to kill Gerrel if you betray the Quarians and genocide them. SO yes, my Gerrel hate is strong enough to justify the death of all Quarians and Tali's suicide. 

[Trikormadenadon]

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Or the Quarian leadership used chemical weapons to kill the rebels who supported the Geth, inadvertantly poisoning their own world and killing millions due to their belligerence and stupidity.

/thread

I don't remember this in the codex...

I don't remember the part where the Geth killed millions of babies in the codex either.
Read between the lines. Rannoch was poisoned by chemical weapons, how would the Geth - domestic, farming and labour units - manufacture those? To say nothing of the fact that not even heretics deploy chemical weapons 300 years later.
We know there were Quarian sympathisers, and we know that the Quarian authorities were psychotic enough to blow them up with explosives just for protecting the Geth BEFORE the war.

Hence, it's highly likely that a large number of those Quarian deaths are due to the Quarians.

Hold on let me get this straight, so we have a war, and on one side we have a bunch of organics, who are affected by chemical weapons, and on the other side we have synthetics, who are obviously NOT affected by chemical weapons, and in between them we have another group of organics shouting "can't we all just get along?" Then the Organic side uses weapons that will harm the pacifists and themselves, but leave their main enemy untouched?

How does that make any sense. When I read between the lines, I see Geth getting control of weapons that they can use indiscriminately to destroy their enemies with no risk to themselves. Normally you have some pretty well thought out answers, but you really dropped the ball on this one.

The Geth are affected by chemical weapons. When you use Chemical Rounds in ME1 they poison the geth just like they poison all other enemies and they lose health over time just like any other enemy. This implies that the Geth are just as much susceptable to chemicals as anyone else.

[Johcande XX]

Not going to read the entire thread, just respond to the OP.

Sad fact, because it's easy. If I was a robot thinking only with numbers and data, take out the easiest targets first, especially if it will cripple the enemy population indefinitely.

Can we end such a terrible topic now.

[Starshadow2010]

Johcande XX wrote...
Can we end such a terrible topic now.

Sir, please do not disrupt the normal course of Special Olympics.
We are betting here.

[General User]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I've often wondered why certain people forgive this so glibly, yet regard the quarian actions as so inconscionably monstrous. I suspect it's got something to do with a person's real life politics.

I think it's more to do with the fact that the Quarians brought the war upon themselves so there is no sympathy for what happened to them.

Such is the mindset of the zealot.

[General User]

Meltemph wrote...

Guys...I'm willing to bet that the writers didn't give near as much thought to this as you guys did. They have tried to portray the geth as victims and a newborn life. What we learn about the Geth and what you are forcing yourself to infer with this part of the story, really should be an indicator of how little the writers thought about this.

You're right, the creative team clearly didn't intend to include in their narrative the fact that the geth, during and/or after the Morning War, exterminated the quarian people en masse.  But it is in there nonetheless.

If something is put into a story by mistake is it still part of the story?  I say: yes. 

[Blazerer]

What everyone seems to forget is that the morning war was a civil war on a gigantic scale. Not 'a few' civilians though geth had to be protected. Many of the casualties were Quarians attached to their own creations. and can you blame them? you have created life only to be forced to destroy it.

When the Quarians fled the planet, what were the geth supposed to do with those that left behind? keep them and their offspring, and their offspring into captivity forever...Let's be honest, a clean death is mercy, at least from the viewpoint of a machine that gained consciousness at most like a year before the morning war started. Imagine you had to learn everything you know, including morals, in less than a year.