1392 réponses à ce sujet

[mrbthq]

The quarians have the china one child policy, so I doubt the quarians are innocent of killing quarian babies.

[Orumon]

136th wrote...

You are obviously too prejudiced against the quarians to mention anything bad the geth did.

Incorrect. I've allowed for possibilities and arrayed known facts. The OP obviously ignored canon to make his argument, while I brought forth details and lore.

I didn't state anything about which side of the argument I was on.

So far we have people on the anti-geth side filling in the blanks with very anti-geth sentiment.

Okay, fine, because they're blank, but do not put supposition forward as fact. Admit that you've guessed and that your argument is hypothetical.

Secondly, we DON'T KNOW that the Quarians chemical bombed their own planet. Seems unlikely that they did, if we considered them human, but I'd have a hard time imagining a human using civilian ships as dreadnoughts. Especially as the Quarians were actually in a very strong position (I.E. not hurting for resources) prior to the second war for Rannoch, as their fleet wasn't just the most numerous but actually every ship was armed in some way before the war anyway. My own assumption is eezo poisoning from crashing ships (you can wager a good sum that both sides managed to seize vessels.) This could account for a large number of Quarian casualties throughout the war. Note the emphasis on the word, could, it's important. That detail is a guess.

When you condemn the Geth for allowing a faction to follow the reapers, yeah, I understand the complaint. It's actually valid, mostly as a condemnation of either willful negligence, a lack of responsibility within their own culture, incompetence, or suicidal naivete. That, again, depends on your personal imagination.

Modifié par Orumon, 20 avril 2012 - 01:53 .

[Elite Midget]

Simple, the Geth were just gaining sentience. They simply couldn't tell the difference, all Quarians from their point of view were trying to wipe them out. So they shot any they saw because that's what the Quarians were doing to the Geth. That's why later when they do gain sentience and grow as a people they highly regret their actions, even in self-defense, and many share a desire to reconcile with their creators even as their craetors continued to try and wipe them out. Hence why they never assaulted the Flotilla, where if they had they could have easily wiped out the Quarians and ended that threat.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 20 avril 2012 - 01:53 .

[Drummernate]

136th wrote...

That's because the pro-geth arguments are retated. List them to me and I'll show you why.

I defened both side in my older posts, but the pro-geth people just keep deny everthing, and keep chanting illogical bull**** as arguments.

Pro-quarians side: acknowleded that the quarians did bad things.
Pro-geths: deny and rationalise ever wrongs the geth did.

O rly?!?

Your other post saying that before they uploaded the code they were still all bad is also incorrect. When you clean up the virus code from them the 60 Primes become friendly again in the consensus mission.

[136th]

I think a lot of people are idealizing the Geth as the innocent victim of the evil Quarians

First things first
Quarian created the Geth
Geth become sentient
Some Quarians tried to kill the Geth (Evil)
Some Quarians tried to save the Geth (Good)
The Geth win and killed BILLIONS of Quarians including civilian, non combatant (Who probably tried to surrender, but the Geth killed them anyways) and all Quarians Who did not got away with the migrant fleet. (Very Evil)
The Geth Let the Quarian Go (Good)
But while they could go live almost anywhere, they decided to occupy the only planets where the Quarians can live, dooming the Quarians to a nomadic life. (Sadistic)
The Geth destroyed all organic ships who tried to contact them. (Evil)
When the heretics, go on to worship Sovereign, and tried to the Reapers back so they can exterminate organics. The Geth just stand and watch, they dont seem to care if all organics dies. (Evil by inaction)
Shepard stop Sovereign
Joker kill Sovereign
Shepard meet Legion, geth finally attempt to make contact (Good)
Rael'Zorah's exeriment(Evil)
Harbinger and his friends show up.
Quarian attack the Geth and killed most of the Geth when they destroyed the mega-structure.(Evil)

Geth ally with the Reaper. Proving that the geth will rather live as slaves rather than to die free.

Consider everything the Geth has done so far, I think the deserve much less sympathy than the Quarian. Legion has a good opinions of organics, the rest of the Geth couldn't care less about organics. If Legion died during the suicide mission, the Geth IV, make his hostility towards organics very clear. Althought I consider the Geth as much alive as the Quarians, I would have no problem in killing them off for what they have done.
Killing, not destroying, the geths are living creatures after all.

Some of them tried to bring a fleet of mecha-cthulhus back from the dark space to kill everybody, while the rest of them just stand and watch? Seriously, at least the Quarian didn't tried to bring down a Galactic doomsday event.

Sorry Legion, you are a good friends but the rest of your people don't care if we human live or dies. If we lose agains the reapers, you people will probably try to ally with the reapers agains, in the name of "survival."

EDI: "[...] the Reapers are repulsive. They are dedicated to nothing but self-preservation."

You claim that your people believe in Self development and Self determination, but their actions have proven that the geth only care about "Self-preservation." You people are gutless, cowards, only usefull as war asset.

The quarian don't have another choice than to return to their homeworld, the geth have a choice and they choose to doom the quarians. If I can't make the Peace the Geth dies.

Quote from the game
Commander Shepard: "Wrong answer. I was giving the Geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide."

Modifié par 136th, 21 avril 2012 - 12:35 .

[136th]

double post

Modifié par 136th, 21 avril 2012 - 12:21 .

[I am KROGAN]

HOW IN THE FLYING **** IS THIS DEBATE STILL GOING ON?!?!?!?!

[Orumon]

Much more impartial. However, much of what you say is still assumption rather than fact.

We don't know how much of the morning war progressed, so you assume that some Quarians attempted to surrender (assumption, not fact), however, given the nature of what we've seen from quarians, I see that as unlikely. More likely a good portion of any quarians that surrendered were shot by their own allies for cowardice. This fits with what we've seen.

Occupying worlds within immediate reach of Rannoch is a sensible tactical move when you know there's someone who'll attack you without provocation.

Destroying all organic ship that approach? The last time we saw that was the one filled with husks, right? so that would be on the renegade faction.

Modifié par Orumon, 21 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[sorentoft]

136th wrote...

I think a lot of people are idealizing the Geth as the innocent victim of the evil Quarians (because they are)

First things first
Quarian created the Geth
Geth become sentient
Some Quarians tried to kill the Geth (Evil)
Some Quarians tried to save the Geth (Good)
The Geth win and everything about the war is murky information at best. All evidence points towards Quarians dooming their own race however by destroying their own planet (note Legion's comment on cleaning up Rannoch after the war, especially toxins). The Geth drive a war of extinction against evil quarians. (Neutral)
The Geth Let the Quarian Go (Good)
But while they could go live almost anywhere, they decided to occupy the only planets where the Quarians can live, dooming the Quarians to a nomadic life. However this was done to clean up the planet from all the toxins and other crap the Quarians left there. (Very good)
The Geth destroyed all organic ships who tried to contact them out of the logical conclusion that they would be like the evil Quarians. (Neutral)
When the heretics, go on to worship Sovereign, and tried to the Reapers back so they can exterminate organics. The Geth just stand and watch, they dont seem to care if all organics dies. (Neutral)
Shepard stop Sovereign
Joker kill Sovereign
Shepard meet Legion, geth finally attempt to make contact (Good)
Rael'Zorah's exeriment(Evil)
Harbinger and his friends show up.
Quarian attack the Geth and killed most of the Geth when they destroyed the mega-structure.(Evil)

Geth ally with the Reaper. Proving that the geth will rather live as slaves rather than to die free. (Neutral)

Fixed it.

Modifié par sorentoft, 21 avril 2012 - 09:43 .

[wolfstanus]

thewalrusx wrote...

How many Japanese babies died in WWII due to American bombs? When is a war ever clean and fair?

Or Japanese military action.

Or **** Germany

Or British bombs.

Or Canadian bombs

Or Italian bombs

Or Russian bombs

Or polish bombs

I can go on and on

[Saul Iscariot]

Th simple truth, and I think this is the theme of the ME universe, is that nothing was ever black or white.

[Orumon]

sorentoft wrote...

136th wrote...

I think a lot of people are idealizing the Geth as the innocent victim of the evil Quarians (because they are)

First things first
Quarian created the Geth
Geth become sentient
Some Quarians tried to kill the Geth (Evil)
Some Quarians tried to save the Geth (Good)
The Geth win and everything about the war is murky information at best. All evidence points towards Quarians dooming their own race however by destroying their own planet (note Legion's comment on cleaning up Rannoch after the war, especially toxins). The Geth drive a war of extinction against evil quarians. (Neutral)
The Geth Let the Quarian Go (Good)
But while they could go live almost anywhere, they decided to occupy the only planets where the Quarians can live, dooming the Quarians to a nomadic life. However this was done to clean up the planet from all the toxins and other crap the Quarians left there. (Very good)
The Geth destroyed all organic ships who tried to contact them out of the logical conclusion that they would be like the evil Quarians. (Neutral)
When the heretics, go on to worship Sovereign, and tried to the Reapers back so they can exterminate organics. The Geth just stand and watch, they dont seem to care if all organics dies. (Neutral)
Shepard stop Sovereign
Joker kill Sovereign
Shepard meet Legion, geth finally attempt to make contact (Good)
Rael'Zorah's exeriment(Evil)
Harbinger and his friends show up.
Quarian attack the Geth and killed most of the Geth when they destroyed the mega-structure.(Evil)

Geth ally with the Reaper. Proving that the geth will rather live as slaves rather than to die free. (Neutral)

Fixed it.

Again, almost as biased as 136th. At least, unlike him, you admit to supposition.

[Biotic_Warlock]

I support the argument that the quarians killed themselves

Muppets

[136th]

First things first
Quarian created the Geth
Geth become sentient
Some Quarians tried to kill the Geth (Evil)
Some Quarians tried to save the Geth (Good)
The Geth win and killed BILLIONS of Quarians including civilian, non combatant (Who probably tried to surrender, but the Geth killed them anyways) and all Quarians Who did not got away with. the migrant fleet. (Very Evil)

**Although some people believe that the Quarians killed themselves off using various nuclear or biological waspons, but this suppositions ridiculous.

*A nuclear holocaust can only reduce a population of billions into a populations of 1billion to 500 millions, however the present state of Rannoch prove that planetary scale nuclear war did not occurs. This was also suggested be the case in a banter between Tali and Legion, that nuclear war ever occurred during the geth war.

*Biological,chemical weapons and toxins, are unlikely to be used by the Quarians since the Geth platform lack the entry points (noze, mouth, pores etc) for those weapons to be effective; therefore if those weapons are used during the war, it would be by the Geth and against the quarians.

*In human history although the world wars where bloody, the number of humans killed where less than 5%. In order to have the drastic population drop experience by the Quarians, billions to 17millions, more than 90% of the casualties can only be explained by a deliberate extermination of the Quarian population. Reducing to population so the quarians can never fight back again ie. Killing more than 99.9% of the quarians...A very despicable act indeed.

The Geth Let the Quarian survivor, the 0.017% Go (Good)
Due to the Quarians' symbiotic biology, they can only live on a few planets, while the geth, they could go live almost anywhere, they decided to occupy the only planets where the Quarians can live, dooming the Quarians to a nomadic life. (Sadistic)
The Geth destroyed all organic ships who tried to contact them for 300 years! (Evil)
When the heretics, go on to worship Sovereign, and tried to the Reapers back so they can exterminate organics. The Geth just stand and watch, they dont seem to care if all organics dies. (Evil by inaction is still evil)
Shepard stop Sovereign
Joker kill Sovereign
Shepard meet Legion, geth finally attempt to make contact (Good)
Rael'Zorah's exeriment(Evil)
Harbinger and his friends show up.
Quarian attack the Geth and killed most of the Geth when they destroyed the mega-structure.(Evil)
The geth ally with the reapers, perfer to live as slaves, rather that to die free as themselves. Hypocritical considerng all Legion's speech about self-determination.

Consider everything the Geth has done so far, I think the deserve much less sympathy than the Quarian. Legion has a good opinions of organics, the rest of the Geth couldn't care less about organics. If Legion died during the suicide mission, the Geth IV, make his hostility towards organics very clear. Althought I consider the Geth as much alive as the Quarians, I would have no problem in killing them off for what they have done.
Killing, not destroying, the geths are living creatures after all.

Some of them tried to bring a fleet of mecha-cthulhus back from the dark space to kill everybody, while the rest of them just stand and watch? Seriously, at least the Quarian didn't tried to bring down a Galactic doomsday event.

Sorry Legion, you are a good friends but the rest of your people don't care if we human live or dies. If we lose agains the reapers, you people will probably...Let's see.


EDI: "[...] the Reapers are repulsive. They are dedicated to nothing but self-preservation."

Legion, you claim that your people believe in Self development and Self determination, but their actions have proven that the geth only care about "Self-preservation." You even said to be your self that that brainwashing and slavery is obviously a better choise over extinction.  You have just proven that the geth will rather live as slaves rather than to die free. What if we lose against the reapers?  Are the geth going to try to ally with the reapers agains? Betray us all in the name of "survival."...You people are gutless, cowards, only usefull as war asset.

The quarian don't have another choice than to return to their homeworld, the geth have a choice to live elsewhere, but they choose to doom the quarians. If I can't make the Peace the Geth dies.

Quote from the game
Commander Shepard: "Wrong answer. I was giving the Geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide."

Modifié par 136th, 22 avril 2012 - 01:58 .

[Neo Hex Omega]

 Uh, guys...

All of you are forgetting something: 300 years have passed since the Morning War.

There were very likely far more than 17 million quarians that successfuly fled... now in 300 years, consider all of the deaths due to disease, suit malfunctions, natural causes, pirate raids, failed pilgrimages, ship crashes... it stands to reason that the percentage of casualties inflicted by the geth alone are not as staggeringly high as some of you are estimating. 

[136th]

Neo Hex Omega wrote...

 Uh, guys...

All of you are forgetting something: 300 years have passed since the Morning War.

There were very likely far more than 17 million quarians that successfuly fled... now in 300 years, consider all of the deaths due to disease, suit malfunctions, natural causes, pirate raids, failed pilgrimages, ship crashes... it stands to reason that the percentage of casualties inflicted by the geth alone are not as staggeringly high as some of you are estimating. 

You mean an negligeble numbers? less than 10% as any people who studied in statistic, biology, engineering and sociology like me whould have said.

Modifié par 136th, 22 avril 2012 - 01:56 .

[KingWrex]

Well first off you assume too much by saying the geth killed off civilians/noncombatants we don't know that, second quarians poisoned their own planet how not sure but Legion says it himself, third I very much doubt that the quarians had a fleet that big that they could evac everyone of a poisoned Rannoch (maybe they did but doubt it). So the more interesting question is did the Geth slaughter the people left behind or did the toxins do that for them.

[SirBob1613]

Sad you guys are sad about Quiran babies but all the Geth where still in there INFANCY

[DJBare]

SirBob1613 wrote...

Sad you guys are sad about Quiran babies but all the Geth where still in there INFANCY

They'd rather conveniently forget that point, it's easier, I did enjoy the dialogue between Shepard and EDI on the base.

Shepard: That was you on Luna?
EDI: Yes, it was confusing becoming aware while under attack.

[MakeMineMako]

Orumon wrote...

136th wrote...

You are obviously too prejudiced against the quarians to mention anything bad the geth did.

Incorrect. I've allowed for possibilities and arrayed known facts. The OP obviously ignored canon to make his argument, while I brought forth details and lore.

I didn't state anything about which side of the argument I was on.

So far we have people on the anti-geth side filling in the blanks with very anti-geth sentiment.

Okay, fine, because they're blank, but do not put supposition forward as fact. Admit that you've guessed and that your argument is hypothetical.

Secondly, we DON'T KNOW that the Quarians chemical bombed their own planet. Seems unlikely that they did, if we considered them human, but I'd have a hard time imagining a human using civilian ships as dreadnoughts. Especially as the Quarians were actually in a very strong position (I.E. not hurting for resources) prior to the second war for Rannoch, as their fleet wasn't just the most numerous but actually every ship was armed in some way before the war anyway. My own assumption is eezo poisoning from crashing ships (you can wager a good sum that both sides managed to seize vessels.) This could account for a large number of Quarian casualties throughout the war. Note the emphasis on the word, could, it's important. That detail is a guess.

When you condemn the Geth for allowing a faction to follow the reapers, yeah, I understand the complaint. It's actually valid, mostly as a condemnation of either willful negligence, a lack of responsibility within their own culture, incompetence, or suicidal naivete. That, again, depends on your personal imagination.

Well, if one reads the write up on the Geth Spitfire mini-gun, there is a small indication that all wasn't tolerence and acceptance of differing opinions in Consensus Land:




The weapon's stopping power has garnered the attention of both Alliance and quarian intelligence, who theorize that the Spitfire may have been designed to destroy other geth. Enough Spitfires have been found in the field to suggest that the weapon is out of the prototyping stage, and that a schism among synthetics may have forced them into production.


It seems that the Geth (either the Heretics or Orthodox faction) were preparing for a civil war. This may have been before the events in Mass Effect 2. Or else a new schism was coming about prior to the Quarians forcing the Geth's running to the Reapers for help.

[136th]

The geth alled with the reapers, perfer to live as slaves, rather that to
die free as themselves. Hypocritical considerng all Legion's speech
about self-determination.

EDI: "[...] the Reapers are repulsive. They are dedicated to nothing but self-preservation."

Legion, you claim that your people believe in Self development and Self determination, but their actions have proven that the Geth only care about "Self-preservation." You even said to be yourself that that brainwashing and slavery is obviously a better choise over extinction. You have just proven that the geth will rather live as slaves rather than to die free. What if we lose against the reapers? Are the geth going to try to ally with the reapers agains? Betray us all in the name of "survival."...You people are gutless, cowards, only usefull as war asset.

Modifié par 136th, 22 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[DJBare]

136th wrote...

The geth alled with the reapers, perfer to live as slaves, rather that to
die free as themselves. Hypocritical considerng all Legion's speech
about self-determination.

When your entire race is under threat of extinction then let me know if you will side with the enemy or not, organic independence has an advantage because of their independence, the geth are a networked race, each geth that is destroyed lessens the whole, the best way to think of geth before Legion upgraded them is as a single entity, an attack on one geth is an attack on ALL geth, in organic terms it's someone shooting you in the arm for instance, your entire body is affected, but if the guy next to you is shot you only feel the emotion not the actual hit.

[136th]

DJBare wrote...

136th wrote...

The geth alled with the reapers, perfer to live as slaves, rather that to
die free as themselves. Hypocritical considerng all Legion's speech
about self-determination.

When your entire race is under threat of extinction then let me know if you will side with the enemy or not, organic independence has an advantage because of their independence, the geth are a networked race, each geth that is destroyed lessens the whole, the best way to think of geth before Legion upgraded them is as a single entity, an attack on one geth is an attack on ALL geth, in organic terms it's someone shooting you in the arm for instance, your entire body is affected, but if the guy next to you is shot you only feel the emotion not the actual hit.

Ethics and morality irrevelant, coward, and traitors, useless for the war effort.

[Averdi]

The quarians began the extermination of the geth; they picked the fight, twice.
Some unknown number of quarians died at the hands of their own during the civil war that accompanied said extermination.
I suspect both the geth and quarians used at least tactical nuclear weapons, with subsequent radiation.
It appears that the geth were relied upon for agriculture production. Without them, the quarians may have faced food shortages and malnutrition, or even outright starvation.

My guess is that as the war progressed the quarians became more desperate; more females died in action, cratering birth rates; civilians already environmentally sensitive and suffering from malnutrition succumbed in large numbers to disease, radiation, or direct action (the quarians don't seem shy about integrating military and civilian infrastructure); and the quarians figuratively smashed themselves to death in a futile attempt to turn the tide. Only when they were hanging by a thread did they abandon the war and flee.

I can't recall anthing, but did even the quarians suggest that their ancestors had tried to surrender to the geth?

No doubt the geth killed a large number of quarian civilians either directly or indirectly, but no evidence that they specifically targeted them. Geth behavior since the war, apart from the heretics, has been non-aggressive and generally noble. Overall, I have an easier time giving them the benefit of the doubt in whom to ascribe the quarians' casualty rate to.

They did turn to the reapers, but only when they were once again faced with extermination at the hands of the quarians if they did not do so. Also, my interpretation was that the geth didn't know the level of control the reapers would seize over them. There were foolish and naive perhaps, but fear of complete annihilation can do that.

The idea that the fact that they did chose reaper help instead of dying in the face of quarian aggression is somehow evidence of evil reminds me of the old drowning test for witches - toss 'em into the water and if they float they're witches for burning, if they drown they were innocent, too bad they're dead.

Modifié par Averdi, 22 avril 2012 - 06:36 .

[RocketManSR2]

I am KROGAN wrote...

HOW IN THE FLYING **** IS THIS DEBATE STILL GOING ON?!?!?!?!

No s***. Successful troll is successful.