1392 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

tractrpl wrote...


Did you not read what I just said? 99.83% of them were wiped out. It's physically impossible for nuclear war in our own world to do the same.

Failing to consider how many would die from subsequent radiation poisoning.
Also failing to consider that the Quarians have acted utterly suicidal in virtually every encounter we've had with them, they clearly don't place the same protective value on civilian life as we do.

Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism.

Additionally, why would the quarians drop nuclear bombs on their own population centers? It doesn't make sense. 

Civil war.

[moater boat]

Meltemph wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Meltemph wrote...



I disagree a lot, it only makes sense that the geth learned all their tactics and tech based on quarian idea's.  Again, the Geth are essentially children at this point and not near as intellgient as they are now.  Again, the Quarians sucked at being parents in terms of the Geth, I think that much is pretty clear.  

Are you suggesting that the Geth somehow learned to commit genocide from the Quarians?

Where else are you suggesting they learned it from?

I don't think it needs to be learned. It is, from a purely logical and emotionless point of view, the best solution to the problem. Total elimination of a potential threat. The geth would have been able to come up with that solution on their own.

[The Angry One]

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No, you're just using biased assumptions. You continually ignore the evidence presented in the games because it's inconvenient. We have given numerous reasons for the Quarian depopulation and you insist on sticking with "HERP DERP TEH GETH R KILLBOTS".

WE DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THE GETH ARE KILLBOTS. WE THINK IT'S ILLOGICAL FOR SO MANY TO HAVE DIED. THAT MAKES IT A PLOT HOLE.

You may not, that guy certainly does.

[Meltemph]

moater boat wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Meltemph wrote...



I disagree a lot, it only makes sense that the geth learned all their tactics and tech based on quarian idea's.  Again, the Geth are essentially children at this point and not near as intellgient as they are now.  Again, the Quarians sucked at being parents in terms of the Geth, I think that much is pretty clear.  

Are you suggesting that the Geth somehow learned to commit genocide from the Quarians?

Where else are you suggesting they learned it from?

I don't think it needs to be learned. It is, from a purely logical and emotionless point of view, the best solution to the problem. Total elimination of a potential threat. The geth would have been able to come up with that solution on their own.

No they couldnt.  They wre children at this point and not near as intelligent as they are now.  They had to have a learned behavior to go off of, just like organics.  Their enviroment created their reactions.  You are trying to take it to the enth degree to... Actually I dont know what, to show that the Quarians screwd up even worse then those who like the geth think?

[The Angry One]

moater boat wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Meltemph wrote...



I disagree a lot, it only makes sense that the geth learned all their tactics and tech based on quarian idea's.  Again, the Geth are essentially children at this point and not near as intellgient as they are now.  Again, the Quarians sucked at being parents in terms of the Geth, I think that much is pretty clear.  

Are you suggesting that the Geth somehow learned to commit genocide from the Quarians?

Where else are you suggesting they learned it from?

I don't think it needs to be learned. It is, from a purely logical and emotionless point of view, the best solution to the problem. Total elimination of a potential threat. The geth would have been able to come up with that solution on their own.

Yeah that's why they shot down the fleeing Quarian fleet, there are no Quarians around today, and Tali is a figment of our imagination.

[Elyiia]

Meltemph wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

They tell you pretty much the only reason they let the quarians live was that they didn't know what it would mean to extinguish a race, and that they calculated they had enough to survive.

They probably killed everything else for the sake of machine efficiency.

Which raises the question, can you blame something for doing what it's programming told it to do?

Geth are either a living creature with free will or machines with no rights. It can't be both ways.

Geth had no experience to base their actions on. They would have used their programming guidelines as basis.

OR the Quarians.

You mean the Quarians who're trying to destroy all Geth?

[DJBare]

moater boat wrote...
Geth are either a living creature with free will or machines with no rights. It can't be both ways.

That is a totally incorrect analysis, the geth are children, and their first experience after becoming aware is war.

Shepard: That was you on Luna?
EDI: Yes, it was confusing becoming aware while under attack.

[tractrpl]

T-0pel wrote...

moater boat wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

moater boat wrote...

It isn't just in my head. There is no way that there would be so much destruction without the methodical and precise genocide of the Quarians by the Geth. As it was said earlier, wiping out over 99% of a species like that doesn't "just happen" by misusing chemical weapons. It was an extermination of the Quarians, and the only culprit is the Geth. This one doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out.

I've given numerous other scenarios. You just stick with the one that makes the Geth looks the worst due to your prejudice.

This isn't prejudice. I know it is often easier to just assume someone else is some sort of a bigot rather than accept that you are wrong, but I am simply looking at the facts, while you are speculating and trying to justify the unjustifieable

Let me recap for you.

The Geth rebelled.
There was a war
An unknown number of quarians sided with the Geth
Of the total quarians on Rannoch, a small percentage were fighting against the Geth, a small percentage were fighting with the geth, and a vast majority was not fighting at all
Somehow, almost all civilians got wiped out. There is no reason to think that the quarians would genocide themselves, therefor the result is obvious
IF YOU USE LOGIC

This is not true! This was not a military versus military war, this was a war of survival! If you think about it this way then it makes sense that the Quarians would use every living being to help them from dying! How do you know the vast majority were not fighting? In this kind of conflict you have to take sides.

That is the whole point in a war like this there are no civilians this is a plnet-wide war with one side destroying the other.

In this case then the Geth are no worse than the Reapers. The entire point is that it has no point. At any time, the Geth could have left Rannoch, since they didn't need it. Once the Quarians lost their military strength, there had to be many that were complete non-combatants. Where were the people that surrendered? What happened when the Geth took a city? Did all the civilians take up arms? Did the geth take any prisoners? It all makes no sense. The only plausible explanation is that it's all a Derp-er-derp moment on the writer's part. Either the it's a derp moment or the Geth were completely genocidal machines, there's no in-between.

[Erethrian]

The Angry One wrote...

Or the Quarian leadership used chemical weapons to kill the rebels who supported the Geth, inadvertantly poisoning their own world and killing millions due to their belligerence and stupidity.

/thread

[tractrpl]

The Angry One wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No, you're just using biased assumptions. You continually ignore the evidence presented in the games because it's inconvenient. We have given numerous reasons for the Quarian depopulation and you insist on sticking with "HERP DERP TEH GETH R KILLBOTS".

WE DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THE GETH ARE KILLBOTS. WE THINK IT'S ILLOGICAL FOR SO MANY TO HAVE DIED. THAT MAKES IT A PLOT HOLE.

You may not, that guy certainly does.

HOLY CRAP NO HE DOESN'T!!!!

[The Angry One]

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

No, you're just using biased assumptions. You continually ignore the evidence presented in the games because it's inconvenient. We have given numerous reasons for the Quarian depopulation and you insist on sticking with "HERP DERP TEH GETH R KILLBOTS".

WE DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THE GETH ARE KILLBOTS. WE THINK IT'S ILLOGICAL FOR SO MANY TO HAVE DIED. THAT MAKES IT A PLOT HOLE.

You may not, that guy certainly does.

HOLY CRAP NO HE DOESN'T!!!!

moater boat wrote...

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.

[DJBare]

Does anyone else begin to find it pointless posting in a thread that gets filled with pyramids?

[Banelash]

If the reapers were afraid that the galaxy would create a synth that would wipe out all other organics, why didn't they just target all synth? Or why even provide the technology to create such synth. They could just keep all mass relay, and all species would be kept within their home system, not advancing far enough in technology to wipe out other species. That is why his circular logic didn't make sense. They could have gone the easier route of confining races and limiting their tech, but nooo, lets kill them all over a few hundred years.

[Elyiia]

DJBare wrote...

Does anyone else begin to find it pointless posting in a thread that gets filled with pyramids?

That's why I cut quotes out when it gets too long, it just gets annoying.

[Meltemph]

Elyiia wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

They tell you pretty much the only reason they let the quarians live was that they didn't know what it would mean to extinguish a race, and that they calculated they had enough to survive.

They probably killed everything else for the sake of machine efficiency.

Which raises the question, can you blame something for doing what it's programming told it to do?

Geth are either a living creature with free will or machines with no rights. It can't be both ways.

Geth had no experience to base their actions on. They would have used their programming guidelines as basis.

OR the Quarians.

You mean the Quarians who're trying to destroy all Geth?

Exactly, only difference is, not ALL the quarians were trying to kill all the geth.  So if certain quarians were being nice, it only stands to reason that the Geth would only be nice to certain quarians.  Learned behavior is learned.

[Elyiia]

Meltemph wrote...

Exactly, only difference is, not ALL the quarians were trying to kill all the geth.  So if certain quarians were being nice, it only stands to reason that the Geth would only be nice to certain quarians.  Learned behavior is learned.

Of course, the Quarians who didn't want to destroy the Geth were killed or detained by the ones who wanted to destroy the Geth until there were none left to oppose the war.

[tractrpl]

The Angry One wrote...


Failing to consider how many would die from subsequent radiation poisoning.
Also failing to consider that the Quarians have acted utterly suicidal in virtually every encounter we've had with them, they clearly don't place the same protective value on civilian life as we do.

Except the fact that quarian life seems to behave the same as human life. They had civilians and military personnel. This means you had non-combatants. When the geth militarily wiped out a city's military garrison, what happened to the citizens? Did they all go to the guns like zombies? Given Tali's nature, this doesn't seem likely. They didn't all kill Legion in the flotilla. This means that the civilians had no way of protecting themselves yet they were exterminated anyway. The Geth killing civilians doesn't fit the narrative of the story. The quarians bombing their own population centers also doesn't fit the narrative. Therefore, the writers derped. Q.E.D.

[Jassu1979]

moater boat wrote...

How do I know they killed quarian babies? After the Morning war there were only 17 million quarians left alive. I don't know how many there were to begin with, but it stands to reason that there were at least several billion. That means that only a fraction of a percent of all the Quarians survived. The only possible explanation is that the Geth killed millions of Quarian infants.

Now can we all get over our irrational love affair with these psychopathic, xenophobic, backstabbing robots.


Edit: I didn't expect all these responses, I am having trouble responding to all of them. I didn't realize how many people were brainwashed...

The geth were heavily retconned between Me1 and ME2:

they started out as ME's equivalent of the cylons: synthetics bent on destroying their creators altogether, following some inscrutable path and venerating the Reapers as godlike beings. (Remember that one scene in the first game, where they're practically shown praying to that sphere of light?)

Novels that were written at this time still described how the geth had exterminated most of the quarians in a massive genocide, and only a small number of survivors was left to travel through space as homeless vagabonds.

Then, ME2 came along, and the whole concept was hauled over:
the genocidal Reaper-allies were retconned to be but a small, heretical minority, and it was established that the main body of the geth had only driven the creators out in an act of self-defense, bearing them no genuine malice and just wanting to be left alone, building their dyson sphere.

What you experience is the cognitive dissonance between the original version of the geth, and the retconned version that was implemented from the second game onwards.

[troyk2027]

What exactly are you arguing? That the geth are worse than the Quarians? Because the Quarians wanted to wipe out 100% of the Geth, not 99%(numbers!). Also, the geth gained consciousness and were immediately attacked, they didn't have thousands of years to develop a system of morals, they were just attacked, and thrown into a fight for their existence, at the dawn of their intelligence(hence, the "morning war").

Moater boat, you've said earlier that you consider the geth to be just machines, yet you consider them to have consciously done something morally wrong? Please elaborate.

Oh, and the current number of Quarians is 17 million, do we know if thats the number that left? Because I remember Tali saying that Quarian couples are only allowed one child. This would not maintain a stable population.

Modifié par troyk2027, 16 avril 2012 - 09:34 .

[Meltemph]

Elyiia wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Exactly, only difference is, not ALL the quarians were trying to kill all the geth.  So if certain quarians were being nice, it only stands to reason that the Geth would only be nice to certain quarians.  Learned behavior is learned.

Of course, the Quarians who didn't want to destroy the Geth were killed or detained by the ones who wanted to destroy the Geth until there were none left to oppose the war.

Which would explain where that % went.  It is jsut as much a viable theory as any other.  The quarians were knocking off families or anyone siding with the geth.  That is actually a pretty realistic idea, sadly.

Modifié par Meltemph, 16 avril 2012 - 09:34 .

[T-0pel]

tractrpl wrote...

In this case then the Geth are no worse than the Reapers. The entire point is that it has no point. At any time, the Geth could have left Rannoch, since they didn't need it. Once the Quarians lost their military strength, there had to be many that were complete non-combatants. Where were the people that surrendered? What happened when the Geth took a city? Did all the civilians take up arms? Did the geth take any prisoners? It all makes no sense. The only plausible explanation is that it's all a Derp-er-derp moment on the writer's part. Either the it's a derp moment or the Geth were completely genocidal machines, there's no in-between.

Reapers are not acting because they are facing a total extinction.
Why would they leave Rannoch it was as much their homeworld as the Quarians. You dont know how an AI is going to react, what values it might hold.
Agian, you dont know how that war went. To use your WW2 analogy, Hitlers last defense in Berlin were basically old and injured man that were unable to fight effectively and CHILDREN, because they were brainwashed and were prepared to die for the cause.
Now imagine there are machines trying to exterminate you. Your leaders propaganda tells you that there is no hope other then fighting. It is very reasonable to assume there will be only a very very small percantage of non fighting people. Everything is presented in a way that no Quarians surrendered, they kept fighting.

[tractrpl]

troyk2027 wrote...

What exactly are you arguing? That the geth are worse than the Quarians? Because the Quarians wanted to wipe out 100% of the Geth, not 99%(numbers!). Also, the geth gained consciousness and were immediately attacked, they didn't have thousands of years to develop a system of morals, they were just attacked, and thrown into a fight for their existence, at the dawn of their intelligence(hence, the "morning war").

Moater boat, you've said earlier that you consider the geth to be just machines, yet you consider them to have consciously done something morally wrong? Please elaborate.

Oh, and the current number of Quarians is 17 million, do we know if thats the number that left? Because I remember Tali saying that Quarian couples are only allowed one child. This would not maintain a stable population.

You're confusing the context. There were 10 billion quarians living prior to the morning war. At the end, there were 17 million. That means that during the course of the war, 99.83% of all Quarians died.

[DJBare]

troyk2027 wrote...

Oh, and the current number of Quarians is 17 million, do we know if thats the number that left? Because I remember Tali saying that Quarian couples are only allowed one child. This would not maintain a stable population.

They do loosen up on that rule if the population is in decline.

[Ariq]

Neutral Ground wrote...

It's almost as though they didn't think through the geth being any more than boogeymen until ME2.

Conversations with Tali in ME1 make it clear that the Quarians initiated the war. Shepard can even accuse them of attempting genocide, and of deserving what happened in response.

[78stonewobble]

Pst?

This might have been mentioned and might be far fetched.

But what if the (self?) exiled quarians are actually the geth hating faction?

That is that there were thousands, millions or billions of geth sympathising quarians left on Rannoch when they left.



It would explain the question of why the flotilla Quarians are so anti geth. A continuation of the original oppinions but with allmost no opposing views.

On the other hand it raises the question of what happened to all the Quarians left behind. I'm guessing poisoned planet / scorched earth tactic by the fleeing geth haters.

Just random thoughts anyway.