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Signs that indicate DA3 might be ... problematic


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#76
Cultist

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BubbleDncr wrote...

r3dKrypt0nite wrote...

Cultist wrote...

1. Dialogue Wheel
Bad sign that they decided to keep it. Compared to Origins thanks to dialogue wheel conversations were extremely limited, leaving you with near-linear and simplified dialogues. hey can't even approac BG2 or Fallout 2 level. And wheel is here to stay. Somehow, I doubt they will add something to it, maybe make it a bit fancier, but still we'll probably be left with Yes, No and Investigate.
2. Voiced Protagonist
Cutting origins, race and voices was terrible. First step towards jRPGs with pre-set protagonists. And they are keeping it for DA3.
3. Combat.
Biggest disappointment. Complete overhaul of combat system turned tactical battles into hack'n'slash with arcade movement, acrobatic over-the-top animations and bashing awesome buttons. I never actually used tactical approach, positioning or actually planned any battle on nightmare difficulty walkthrough - just hit hit hit.
4. Art style.
Animu is uopn us. Swords that are longer that character itself, teleportations, ridiculous darkspawn and so on. Actually, I'm ok with Fenris' appearance, it is other things I'm worried about.
5. Quest simplification.
Later BioWare products showed significant decrease in quest quality - both DA2 and ME3 had on of the most boring and simplified quests - as people here on forums named them "Fetch Quests". Move to X, get Y, brind to Z.
6. Electronic Arts
Electronic arts already killed two of my favorite franchizes, and I think they intend to o the same with DA. This worries me a lot.
7. Forgettable companions
I agree with OP about all-bisexual all-forgiving companions are forgettable and shallow. They will never leave you, never turn on you, they are just fillers and mannequins that provide additional fire support for constant battles. Their lack of personality is a worriesome sign. 
9. Decisons
In both ME3 and DA2 none of your decisons matter. You'll get three-colour ending in ME3 and ONE ending for DA2. No epilogues, nothing. Compared to The Witcher, where almost every your decisions bears some consequences, DA2 and ME3 were a bleak experience.

I still have hope that this bad signs could be a false ones and BioWare can restore Dragon Age to former glory, but their statements on the forums are disturbing - wheel, voiced protaonist, desire to stick with DA2 - that is very disappointing... Yet they also stated that companion customiation will be present, and that means they are actually changing something. So there's still some little hope that DA3 will appeal primary to RPG fans, instead of "Call of Duty Crowd".


Hit the nail on the head.


I find it a little odd that you find the voice acting as "a first step wtowards jRPGs with a pre-set protagonist" but then later on praise the Witcher for it's decisions/consequences. Do you also have that same problem with The Witcher? Or are you just willing to overlook it?

Because I personally have never been able to get into the Witcher because I dislike Geralt - if they had given me the option to play as a female character, I would have had no problem. But I guess that wouldn't fit well with their story. So it seems they limit you choices, too.

Because Witcher is a game with pre-set protagonist and always intended to be such. The Witcher books have one protagonist(two in fact, but Cirael is mostly on the background). Not everyone and everything should be with silent and fully cusomizable protagonist. It would be silly to complain that Harry Potter books is giving us Harry Potter as main protagonist. But  with BioWare games we have this tradition and when it was cut with Hawke a lot of fans complained and shunned DA2. If some jRPGs have pre-set protagonists I have no problem with it and for them changing to customizable Prot. and removing voice acting will be IMO harmful because they are popular as they are  - with pre-set prot., voiced and with linear storyline.

Modifié par Cultist, 21 avril 2012 - 07:21 .


#77
MagmaSaiyan

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if they decided to cave and give Origins only fans what they want

#78
Sutekh

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hussey 92 wrote...

A fair point.  But they would of had to rewrite alot of the game in order for it to work with a female PC.  also the Witcher is based off of a book series with Geralt as the main character.

Some RPGs have customizable characters and some have set characters

I'm not going to argue with that.

The downside of set chars, though, is that either you connect with them, or you don't. This isn't something you can force. Bubble can't connect with Geralt because (I assume) they only can connect with female chars, so TW is a no-go for them. Nothing strange about that.

#79
caradoc2000

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Sutekh wrote...

The downside of set chars, though, is that either you connect with them, or you don't.

And (at least for me) a set character is really bad for replayability. This isn't as bad in TW because of the convoluted storyline, but even so.

#80
In Exile

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Sutekh wrote...
The downside of set chars, though, is that either you connect with them, or you don't. This isn't something you can force. Bubble can't connect with Geralt because (I assume) they only can connect with female chars, so TW is a no-go for them. Nothing strange about that.


You also have people that can't connect with unrepresented fan fiction, which was what silent VO tends towards (unless you're playing a Chris Avellone game, or Vampire: The Masquerade).

Bioware, when not using VO, has an insane commitment to neutral and bland. Hell, that's how they first wrote Shepard with VO in ME1.

#81
Master Shiori

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KDD-0063 wrote...

In an interview David Gaider clearly states that he and other writers are under pressure, and it shows.


Writers and other devs are always under pressure, especially as the game gets closer to release date. Also, longer development time doesn't always guarantee a better game. There are quite a few games that spent long time in development and cae out the worse for it.



KDD-0063 wrote...


 The characters of DA2 are bland and forgettable


Hardly. I found them way more interesting then most of the characters in DA:O. 

Modifié par Master Shiori, 21 avril 2012 - 03:01 .


#82
Sutekh

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caradoc2000 wrote...

And (at least for me) a set character is really bad for replayability. This isn't as bad in TW because of the convoluted storyline, but even so.

What I meant is you can connect with set character A and not with set character B, and that will completely change your experience of the games. There's also the case of being unable to connect with a set character at all, but, IMHO, that's a different question.

In Exile wrote...

You also have people that can't connect with unrepresented fan fiction, which was what silent VO tends towards (unless you're playing a Chris Avellone game, or Vampire: The Masquerade).

 I wouldn't go as far as calling it "unrepresented fanfiction" (I would sometimes go further, but only when I'm cranky), but you're preaching to the choir there.

This said, which Vt:M are you talking about? Redemption or Bloodlines?

#83
caradoc2000

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Sutekh wrote...

What I meant is you can connect with set character A and not with set character B, and that will completely change your experience of the games.

I know, I just posted another reason why I'd rather not have a set character.

#84
byzantine horse

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For all the ignorant people who think that DA2 is a J-RPG I give you
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-2
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-3
Learn the difference before you begin using the two terms as loosely as you do.

Modifié par byzantine horse, 21 avril 2012 - 05:53 .


#85
Thor Rand Al

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Sorry, despite the flaws that were in DA2 it was still an excellent game for me. I will be one of the one's that's gonna preorder when the announcement is made. I loved DA:O and DA2 so I have no qualms over the next game being just as good. I know it will be.

#86
Zkyire

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Master Shiori wrote...


KDD-0063 wrote...


 The characters of DA2 are bland and forgettable


Hardly. I found them way more interesting then most of the characters in DA:O. 



Agree, Anders for instance.

He was funny-ish in DAO:A but that's about it.

In DA2 though, while he pissed me off regularly, he was much more interesting, and certainly not forgettable.

Modifié par Zkyire, 21 avril 2012 - 05:58 .


#87
untamedfuture

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byzantine horse wrote...

For all the ignorant people who think that DA2 is a J-RPG I give you
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-2
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-3
Learn the difference before you begin using the two terms as loosely as you do.


Awesome links, thanks!

#88
byzantine horse

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untamedfuture wrote...

byzantine horse wrote...

For all the ignorant people who think that DA2 is a J-RPG I give you
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-2
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-3
Learn the difference before you begin using the two terms as loosely as you do.


Awesome links, thanks!

No problem! :)
And just to clarify, I personally dislike JRPGS alot but I don't dislike any of the Bioware games. And after seeing those videos, aren't Bioware games closer to "jrpgs" than "wrpgs", as it tries to tell a story around a group (you and your companions) rather than a single person (the dragonborn)? Food for thought, for fans and Bioware alike imo.

#89
LinksOcarina

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byzantine horse wrote...

untamedfuture wrote...

byzantine horse wrote...

For all the ignorant people who think that DA2 is a J-RPG I give you
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-2
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-3
Learn the difference before you begin using the two terms as loosely as you do.


Awesome links, thanks!

No problem! :)
And just to clarify, I personally dislike JRPGS alot but I don't dislike any of the Bioware games. And after seeing those videos, aren't Bioware games closer to "jrpgs" than "wrpgs", as it tries to tell a story around a group (you and your companions) rather than a single person (the dragonborn)? Food for thought, for fans and Bioware alike imo.


I argued that once and was told wrong by some...

I think it depends on the percpetion of the character you control. I personally see no difference between the Warden and Hawke, but that is me personally. And honestly, since it is a character driven game  that is telling a story, more than a high power fantasy, then the game falls into the Light RPG category.

That said, BioWare games also give you the chance for expression and the choices to do so. Wether or not they matter is another issue entirely, because most of the time...it doesn't really matter for big things. So that puts all of BioWares games into a weird little grey area.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 21 avril 2012 - 06:36 .


#90
Atakuma

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byzantine horse wrote...

untamedfuture wrote...

byzantine horse wrote...

For all the ignorant people who think that DA2 is a J-RPG I give you
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-2
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-3
Learn the difference before you begin using the two terms as loosely as you do.


Awesome links, thanks!

No problem! :)
And just to clarify, I personally dislike JRPGS alot but I don't dislike any of the Bioware games. And after seeing those videos, aren't Bioware games closer to "jrpgs" than "wrpgs", as it tries to tell a story around a group (you and your companions) rather than a single person (the dragonborn)? Food for thought, for fans and Bioware alike imo.

Not really, Bioware stories are still primarily about the PC and expression is still one of the core elements.

#91
Sejborg

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Atakuma wrote...

byzantine horse wrote...

untamedfuture wrote...

byzantine horse wrote...

For all the ignorant people who think that DA2 is a J-RPG I give you
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-2
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-3
Learn the difference before you begin using the two terms as loosely as you do.


Awesome links, thanks!

No problem! :)
And just to clarify, I personally dislike JRPGS alot but I don't dislike any of the Bioware games. And after seeing those videos, aren't Bioware games closer to "jrpgs" than "wrpgs", as it tries to tell a story around a group (you and your companions) rather than a single person (the dragonborn)? Food for thought, for fans and Bioware alike imo.

Not really, Bioware stories are still primarily about the PC and expression is still one of the core elements.


I don't know. In my playthrough it was more about Varric and Anders. My PC was more like a sidekick. :?

#92
hussey 92

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Master Shiori wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

In an interview David Gaider clearly states that he and other writers are under pressure, and it shows.


Writers and other devs are always under pressure, especially as the game gets closer to release date. Also, longer development time doesn't always guarantee a better game. There are quite a few games that spent long time in development and cae out the worse for it.



KDD-0063 wrote...


 The characters of DA2 are bland and forgettable


Hardly. I found them way more interesting then most of the characters in DA:O. 



So...  Your saying DA2 would have been disapointing no matter how much time they put into it?


And theres no way the DA2 companions come close to the Origins companions.  The comparision between the two caused much of the disapointment in DA2.

#93
LinksOcarina

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hussey 92 wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...

In an interview David Gaider clearly states that he and other writers are under pressure, and it shows.


Writers and other devs are always under pressure, especially as the game gets closer to release date. Also, longer development time doesn't always guarantee a better game. There are quite a few games that spent long time in development and cae out the worse for it.



KDD-0063 wrote...


 The characters of DA2 are bland and forgettable


Hardly. I found them way more interesting then most of the characters in DA:O. 



So...  Your saying DA2 would have been disapointing no matter how much time they put into it?


And theres no way the DA2 companions come close to the Origins companions.  The comparision between the two caused much of the disapointment in DA2.


I know. The Origin companions are so blase compared to Aveline, Merrill, Carver, and Varric. Anders and Fenris were really good too as heavily damaged characters.

Isabella they could have toned back a bit, but we needed a Zevran I guess.

#94
Sutekh

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hussey 92 wrote...

And theres no way the DA2 companions come close to the Origins companions.  The comparision between the two caused much of the disapointment in DA2.

There's way. It's all a matter of perception. I love me some Zevran, Morrigan and Sten, but Anders, Aveline and Varric have depth too. Is there's a domain where, to me, one game isn't superior to the other, it's the companions. So there.

(And, frankly? Apart from the whole "ZOMG! They're all bi! Quelle horreur!" upon which I'd rather not dwell, I haven't seen that much hate towards DA2 companions. They are "hated" simply for being part of the whole thing more than anything. Because for some, DA2 did absolutely nothing right.)

#95
coles4971

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Sutekh wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

And theres no way the DA2 companions come close to the Origins companions.  The comparision between the two caused much of the disapointment in DA2.

There's way. It's all a matter of perception. I love me some Zevran, Morrigan and Sten, but Anders, Aveline and Varric have depth too. Is there's a domain where, to me, one game isn't superior to the other, it's the companions. So there.

(And, frankly? Apart from the whole "ZOMG! They're all bi! Quelle horreur!" upon which I'd rather not dwell, I haven't seen that much hate towards DA2 companions. They are "hated" simply for being part of the whole thing more than anything. Because for some, DA2 did absolutely nothing right.)


How does Varric have any more depth than "I'm awesome"?

I mean, I liked the guy, but he just seemed a bro character, kind of like a Jacob Taylor done right.

#96
bEVEsthda

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Sejborg wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

byzantine horse wrote...

untamedfuture wrote...

byzantine horse wrote...

For all the ignorant people who think that DA2 is a J-RPG I give you
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-1
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-2
penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/western-japanese-rpgs-part-3
Learn the difference before you begin using the two terms as loosely as you do.


Awesome links, thanks!

No problem! :)
And just to clarify, I personally dislike JRPGS alot but I don't dislike any of the Bioware games. And after seeing those videos, aren't Bioware games closer to "jrpgs" than "wrpgs", as it tries to tell a story around a group (you and your companions) rather than a single person (the dragonborn)? Food for thought, for fans and Bioware alike imo.

Not really, Bioware stories are still primarily about the PC and expression is still one of the core elements.


I don't know. In my playthrough it was more about Varric and Anders. My PC was more like a sidekick. :?


I agree. According to those videos, Bioware are now making JRPGs. Good to know. Though, except for Fenris and restyled Flemeth, they're not yet adopting JRPG design. Maybe it will come in DA3? They seem tempted.
And JRPGs are going down the drain, and so seem Bioware. Stands to reason, since they jumped on the bandwagon. (that came out wrong, since it isn't any bandwagon, after all)

Ah, the irony. The irony that Bioware starts to release JRPGs, immediately after one of their heads had dissed JRPGs. Seems so confused.

But, honestly, the only video I didn't remain somewhat sceptical to, was the second. That was the one drawing the borders though.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 21 avril 2012 - 10:36 .


#97
Sejborg

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Sutekh wrote...
(And, frankly? Apart from the whole "ZOMG! They're all bi! Quelle horreur!" upon which I'd rather not dwell, I haven't seen that much hate towards DA2 companions. They are "hated" simply for being part of the whole thing more than anything. Because for some, DA2 did absolutely nothing right.)


I agree somewhat. The companions in DA2 are not THAT bad. Some of them do suck, but so did some of the Origins characters.

But I think that Origins have a huge advantage because of the story. In Origins there was alot of exciting fights. Me and my companions became a band of brothers and sisters. At the end of the game I had the feeling that I had shared an exciting journey with my band of misfits. We had been in mountains, cities, forrets, dungeons - all over - the campfire became our home. Me and my gang did something amasing in Origins. It feld like I had been on an exciting journey at the end. A game has never given me that feeling of accomplishment as I had when I flipped through the epilogue. There was so much I had did with my companions. Even the little things as with the dwarf that wanted to go the mages, Bella in Redcliffe, and so on - to the great scheme of things as to who was left ruling where and how?

Nothing to the same effect was pulled off in Dragon Age 2. But I am sure that Isabela, Aveline and Varric would have been waay more awesome if they had been in Origins as companions. What did I even accomplish with my companions in DA2? :mellow: It all felt like a waste of time, where I was of no importance. 

#98
Sutekh

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coles4971 wrote...

How does Varric have any more depth than "I'm awesome"?

I mean, I liked the guy, but he just seemed a bro character, kind of like a Jacob Taylor done right.

His relationship with his brother. His childhood memories. The way he feels so "un-dwarf", being born topside, and how it, sometimes, rises on the surface (no pun intended). His protective side towards Merrill and Anders. The mysterious inspiration for Bianca. The very way he considers himself, as a witness and a storyteller. His love for words...

Maybe it's easy to miss among the banters and stuff, but it's there if you pay attention.

Btw, on a pure writing point of view, I prefer that approach - a bit of subtlety - to a more heavy-handed one (Anders or Morrigan), but that's just me.

#99
YohkoOhno

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Actually, I think Bioware is merging the elements of Both RPGs into a perfect blend, at least from my perspective.

You could argue games like The Witcher 2 and Deus Ex are like a JRPG than a WRPG.

Honestly, I think both terms are evolving and the newer RPGs will be action based, with the story of JRPGs and the Level Up customization of WRPGs.  

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 21 avril 2012 - 10:30 .


#100
hussey 92

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YohkoOhno wrote...

Actually, I think Bioware is merging the elements of Both RPGs into a perfect blend, at least from my perspective.

You could argue games like The Witcher 2 and Deus Ex are like a JRPG than a WRPG.

Honestly, I think both terms are evolving and the newer RPGs will be action based, with the story of JRPGs and the Level Up customization of WRPGs.  


and how could you argue that the witcher 2 and dues ex are more like JRPGs?