145 réponses à ce sujet

[Hammington]

I remember walking around camp and the haunting music playing in the background and thinking, crap, this group of people are the ones who are supposed to win over nations and stop the Blight? Just us? Dare we even hope? We can barely even get along sometimes. Talk about immersion.
Meanwhile, in DA2, I never had a moment like that. It could have happened in any of the Acts, but it never quite came together.

[Sutekh]

Sejborg wrote...

I agree somewhat. The companions in DA2 are not THAT bad. Some of them do suck, but so did some of the Origins characters.

But I think that Origins have a huge advantage because of the story.

<snip>
 What did I even accomplish with my companions in DA2?  It all felt like a waste of time, where I was of no importance. 

Well, you have to understand that not everyone felt the same, or that, for some, being "the center of the world" isn't that important.

I did feel that, though, a little. Can't use spoilers here, but one major event at the end being initiated by someone else, without Hawke being able to do anything about it (be it to help the perpetrator or stop him) was frustrating, to say the least. There was little things, though. Lia (the elven girl in the Magistrate quest) or Fenryel come to mind. And overall, it didn't feel like Hawke accomplished nothing (up to Act III, that is). He just didn't do it in a grand, spectacular way like the Warden.

As for feeling a strongest camaraderie in DAO? You (the Warden) lived with them, so the promiscuity helps. A lot. But did you notice how not once one of them would worry about you or your feelings? How it was always "me, myself, my problems and I - whine whine whine, demand demand demand"? One of my favorite companions is Ariane from Witch Hunt because she was the only one that seemed to care (plus she's smart and well-balanced). Other than that, my poor Wardens felt sometimes incredibly lonely, right there in the middle of a camp full of companions.

At least, in DA2, you had that little conversation after [yet another event I can't mention], among others.

Anyway, all this is more about interaction than the companions themselves. Interaction in DA2 was far from perfect. I'm the first to rant and whine about the lack of conversations on demand, hugs and kisses, statue-on-balcony LI etc... But, to me, companions are just as good in both games.

[Sejborg]

I find it a bit contradicting that you point out, that being the center of the world is not important. And then you describe it as a flaw that the companions in Origins didn't ask about your feelings...

Anyway. I think there was some feeling conversations in Origins. There is some with Alistair and "Have you ever lost someone you love?" and Wynne babling about your LI. But sure. It was not alot. There could have been more. Maybe Bioware didn't know how to write it without a voice for the PC.

[Dakota Strider]

I think Wynne was sympathetic to your plight, not even counting when she was trying to butt in on your LI. I recall her saying that she knew the weight of the world was on your shoulders, and that it must be very hard.

Perhaps noone else spoke to you about that, is because they were going through the same things. While the Warden was the leader, all the companions were there to help stop the Blight, and would have tried to carry on without you, if the Warden had fallen.

With the Champion...the stage is just not as big. Therefore, while the Champion is exceptional, compared to the population as a whole, it is hard to have a small city's hero, stack up against the Hero of Ferelden. And if the Champion is not as big a deal, his/her companions will not seem as important either.

[Sutekh]

Sejborg wrote...

I find it a bit contradicting that you point out, that being the center of the world is not important. And then you describe it as a flaw that the companions in Origins didn't ask about your feelings...

First I said, "for some" (not necessarily including me, let alone everyone). Second, I meant story-wise. Third, there's a difference between "being the center of the world" and having people asking about your well-being once in a while . 

Anyway. I think there was some feeling conversations in Origins. There is some with Alistair and "Have you ever lost someone you love?" and Wynne babling about your LI. But sure. It was not alot. There could have been more. Maybe Bioware didn't know how to write it without a voice for the PC.

Wynne babbling about your LI is the worst possible example, IMO. It went from "Don't hurt poor Alistair" - at which point you could even say "and what about my feelings?" - maybe the writers were more or less aware of the problem? - to "You shouldn't bang Zevran because it's bad for your sacred duty". Seriously, Wynne? Shut up.  (OK, she apologized later for being out of line, but still)

And I don't think it has anything to do with voiced. They did a very fine job with Ariane. 

Don't get me wrong. I love DAO companions to bits. I love the interactions. Except for Wynne, that is, but even she is well-written. I'd also like to see the camp / on-the-road formula back in DA3 or something along the line, because companions do feel closer that way. DA2's were almost too independant, which might be good for characterization, but not-so-good for interaction.

[In Exile]

Sutekh wrote...
I wouldn't go as far as calling it "unrepresented fanfiction" (I would sometimes go further, but only when I'm cranky), but you're preaching to the choir there.

This said, which Vt:M are you talking about? Redemption or Bloodlines?

Totally Bloodlines. I just was thinking that the writing had actual character in those games. Like the Malkavian. So so much fun.

[hussey 92]

Sutekh wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

I agree somewhat. The companions in DA2 are not THAT bad. Some of them do suck, but so did some of the Origins characters.

But I think that Origins have a huge advantage because of the story.

<snip>
 What did I even accomplish with my companions in DA2?  It all felt like a waste of time, where I was of no importance. 

Well, you have to understand that not everyone felt the same, or that, for some, being "the center of the world" isn't that important.

I did feel that, though, a little. Can't use spoilers here, but one major event at the end being initiated by someone else, without Hawke being able to do anything about it (be it to help the perpetrator or stop him) was frustrating, to say the least. There was little things, though. Lia (the elven girl in the Magistrate quest) or Fenryel come to mind. And overall, it didn't feel like Hawke accomplished nothing (up to Act III, that is). He just didn't do it in a grand, spectacular way like the Warden.

As for feeling a strongest camaraderie in DAO? You (the Warden) lived with them, so the promiscuity helps. A lot. But did you notice how not once one of them would worry about you or your feelings? How it was always "me, myself, my problems and I - whine whine whine, demand demand demand"? One of my favorite companions is Ariane from Witch Hunt because she was the only one that seemed to care (plus she's smart and well-balanced). Other than that, my poor Wardens felt sometimes incredibly lonely, right there in the middle of a camp full of companions.

At least, in DA2, you had that little conversation after [yet another event I can't mention], among others.

Anyway, all this is more about interaction than the companions themselves. Interaction in DA2 was far from perfect. I'm the first to rant and whine about the lack of conversations on demand, hugs and kisses, statue-on-balcony LI etc... But, to me, companions are just as good in both games.

Morrigan asks about your mother
Alistair asks if someone you loved has ever died
Wynne gives you alot of guidence
Sten doesn't really care, but thats why we love him
Oghren doesnt like talking about that stuff
I like the way they did it in Origins, the companions didn't really directly ask about your feelings but did ask some personal questions about your PC's life

DA2's short of a companion thats not an emotional wreck

note:  In ME2, Shepard was running around fixing everyones problems, and no one asked if they could do something for him. 

[In Exile]

Sejborg wrote...

I find it a bit contradicting that you point out, that being the center of the world is not important. And then you describe it as a flaw that the companions in Origins didn't ask about your feelings... 

I don't know about you, but if my family was murdered or my entire home was devastated and filled with demons, or my family was being sold into slavery by Tevinter mages... my friends would be like, "Dude, you doing okay with the whole terror inflicted on your family?" (well, maybe not the last one).

Anyway. I think there was some feeling conversations in Origins. There is some with Alistair and "Have you ever lost someone you love?" and Wynne babling about your LI. But sure. It was not alot. There could have been more. Maybe Bioware didn't know how to write it without a voice for the PC.

Bioware always has a voice for the PC. It just gets to be a bit looser, and people tend to pretend like it's not there. Just look at the CE origin in DA:O. The dialogue all points to you being an annoying rabble rouser, and heavily on the extraverted side.

[hussey 92]

^but how are the Origins companions supposed to know about what happened before you met them

[LinksOcarina]

Sejborg wrote...

I find it a bit contradicting that you point out, that being the center of the world is not important. And then you describe it as a flaw that the companions in Origins didn't ask about your feelings...

Anyway. I think there was some feeling conversations in Origins. There is some with Alistair and "Have you ever lost someone you love?" and Wynne babling about your LI. But sure. It was not alot. There could have been more. Maybe Bioware didn't know how to write it without a voice for the PC.

But the two groups serve different functions really.

Dragon Age II, the companions are more like friends than anything else, kind of the surrogate family Hawke was losing throughout the game.The Origin companions didn't really have that connection, it just felt like a group of people working together for a common cause.

That said, nothing wrong with that either. But to dismiss the characters in Dragon Age II as being bland makes me scratch my head over as to why, when I found them more interesting and dynamic than the guys in Origins.

[byzantine horse]

I would argue that Bioware "has gone back to" what JRPGs used to be and not what they are now: Cinematics and high fidelity graphics with some boring story telling in between (well, the FF games are the only ones I've actually seen, but that Wii-only game looked fun).

And no... Deus Ex and The Witcher 2 are not JRPGs. JRPGs focus on the group and not the individual. Bioware games give way more credit to the companions than Deus Ex or TW2 do.

[Sutekh]

hussey 92 wrote...

^but how are the Origins companions supposed to know about what happened before you met them

They were there when the Circle fell to demons or a decision had to be made about Jowan (Mage origin), when the Tevinter enslaved the Warden's father (City Elf), when a deformed Tamlen had to be euthanized by his best friend (Dalish), and they know about a missing brother and assassinated parents (Human noble). Three of them witnessed the Guardian's test in Sacred Ashes. I haven't played dwarves past origin, so I don't know about it, but I assume something happened in Orzammar as well, or with the dwarven merchant in Denerim whose name I can't remember.

See, I'm not talking about nagging the Warden about their feelings (DAO is no soap opera), but showing some support during this kind of events that happened right before their eyes. A little empathy, for the love of Mythal!

[hussey 92]

Sutekh wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

^but how are the Origins companions supposed to know about what happened before you met them

They were there when the Circle fell to demons or a decision had to be made about Jowan (Mage origin), when the Tevinter enslaved the Warden's father (City Elf), when a deformed Tamlen had to be euthanized by his best friend (Dalish), and they know about a missing brother and assassinated parents (Human noble). Three of them witnessed the Guardian's test in Sacred Ashes. I haven't played dwarves past origin, so I don't know about it, but I assume something happened in Orzammar as well, or with the dwarven merchant in Denerim whose name I can't remember.

See, I'm not talking about nagging the Warden about their feelings (DAO is no soap opera), but showing some support during this kind of events that happened right before their eyes. A little empathy, for the love of Mythal!

Actually, demending on your answers in the guardians test, your companions do make comments.  When my human noble said he should have done more for his mother, I remember my companions, Sten being one of them saying comforting things.

I like how in Origins, They didn't just throw their problems at you, you had to talk to them alot.  Sten doesn't say right away "help me get my sword back" he has to be convinced to talk about it.

I thought they overdid the emotional parts in DA2.  RPG companions are there to help you win battles, not hold your hand the whole game

[Sutekh]

hussey 92 wrote...

I thought they overdid the emotional parts in DA2.  RPG companions are there to help you win battles, not hold your hand the whole game

So we agree that there were more emotional moments with companions in DA2?

(And I don't consider companions as mere cannon fodder, but to each their own and all that jazz)

[hussey 92]

Sutekh wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...

I thought they overdid the emotional parts in DA2.  RPG companions are there to help you win battles, not hold your hand the whole game

So we agree that there were more emotional moments with companions in DA2?

(And I don't consider companions as mere cannon fodder, but to each their own and all that jazz)

I prefer a middle ground, in Orgins maybe there wasnt enough emotional parts and in DA2 there was to much

[Sutekh]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Butting in your dicussion here but overall the "intimacy factor" of DA2 compared to DAO in my opinion was that allthough there was a lot of it in DA2 it was to much pre set.

The whole LI thing felt much more intimate and personal in DAO.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Indeed. Romance in DA2 felt like an afterthought. My first playthrough, I romanced Anders. And when we got to that impulse kiss, I was like "Wow! It's gonna be great." then "OK. Nice conversation, decent bed scene but..." then "Why doesn't he even talk to me? Am I just a one-night stand?"  then "Get down that fudging balcony and stop nagging me about MAGES!!!"

Legacy and MotA make things much better, but those DLCs are kinda off-story, so it's not the same. It certainly can't be compared to that feeling of intimacy we had in DAO. ("Yes, amore?" Ah, Zevran... )

This said, pre set?

Modifié par Sutekh, 23 avril 2012 - 12:21 .

[Dakota Strider]

Since this thread has turned into a comparison of companions from the two games, I will add my two coppers. What contributed to the feel of the two sets of companions, was the sense of urgency in the two situations.

In DAO, from the battle of Ostagar, it felt like you were on the clock, to get things done, before it was too late. There were chances to pause occassionally, usually at camp. But there was a sense of urgency, that what you were doing was important, and every little step was to prepare you for the big confrontation.

In DA2, there really was no deadline type pressure. There were smaller problems, here and there. All fairly important by there own merits. But they rarely seemed to connect together, and I did not get the sensation that  the different quests were leading to something important, that would be the culmination of everything that was happening in Kirkwall....not until it was almost upon you in Act 3.

You could say, that there was not the same sense of urgency in the two games. And when your overall mission is does not feel as important, then it is going to affect how you feel about those you share that experience with, namely your companions. If we switched the npc companions around, and have the DA2 companions with the Warden, and the DAO companions with the Champion, I think it would affect how people perceive them. Now we all have our favorites, that we think would stand out in any setting. But on average, I think the setting of DAO would make any companion there seem more heroic. And the more relaxed pace of DA2 would make the companions in that setting seem more casual.

Each game was meant to accomplish something different, so I am not saying one is worse than the other. DAO was meant to be BIG, and hook people into this new game world. DA2 was meant to be a bit of a "breather" where the player could learn more things about the world...without having to save it. I think both served there purpose in that.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 23 avril 2012 - 01:10 .

[Sutekh]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Yep; pre set.

In DA2 it was decided for you when you could have some personal talk with your LI. In DAO you were the one who started the conversation. That's a big difference.

RPG is about having influence and LI's being a big thing in DA you should have influence in that, meaning that you decide when a conversation takes place (not like how they did it in DA2)

OK I just didn't understand what you meant by that. And I totally agree, btw.

[Davillo]

DA:2 is the first and last PC game I ever bought, nuff said......

[LinksOcarina]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Butting in your dicussion here but overall the "intimacy factor" of DA2 compared to DAO in my opinion was that allthough there was a lot of it in DA2 it was to much pre set.

The whole LI thing felt much more intimate and personal in DAO.

Indeed. Romance in DA2 felt like an afterthought. My first playthrough, I romanced Anders. And when we got to that impulse kiss, I was like "Wow! It's gonna be great." then "OK. Nice conversation, decent bed scene but..." then "Why doesn't he even talk to me? Am I just a one-night stand?"  then "Get down that fudging balcony and stop nagging me about MAGES!!!"

Legacy and MotA make things much better, but those DLCs are kinda off-story, so it's not the same. It certainly can't be compared to that feeling of intimacy we had in DAO. ("Yes, amore?" Ah, Zevran... )

This said, pre set?

Yep; pre set.

In DA2 it was decided for you when you could have some personal talk with your LI. In DAO you were the one who started the conversation. That's a big difference.

RPG is about having influence and LI's being a big thing in DA you should have influence in that, meaning that you decide when a conversation takes place (not like how they did it in DA2)

But...you can decide to not talk to them at all about the romance in Dragon Age II. At least at certain points you can.  So it was fixed, but you didn't have to do it which is insomuch a choice as anything else.

And honestly, how they did it in Origins was sometimes laughable. I once slept with Morrigan, then five minutes later raised my love with Zevran up, slept with him, and broke it off with her without a second thought. It kind of broke the whole feelings and immersion with the love interests there, instead of it being gradual, which is what we saw in Dragon Age II. Got to remember that the timeline of the game was seven years, so in that time it had to be more gradual instead of being instantatneous. And it should not always be up to Hawke in the end, the other characters would have to showcase feelings and realism about this too; which we rarely see during game romances. In fact...BioWare is pretty much the only company I know that showcases both sides, the player and the character, which makes them dynamic.

And hell, to this day the best romances are the two elves of Zevran and Merrill for me. Zevran because he gradually learns to love, and Merrill because her romance was perhaps the most heart-wrenching considering what she did.

byzantine horse wrote...

I would argue that Bioware "has gone back to" what JRPGs used to be and not what they are now: Cinematics and high fidelity graphics with some boring story telling in between (well, the FF games are the only ones I've actually seen, but that Wii-only game looked fun).

And no... Deus Ex and The Witcher 2 are not JRPGs. JRPGs focus on the group and not the individual. Bioware games give way more credit to the companions than Deus Ex or TW2 do.

 

BioWare has always made Light RPGs. Hell, id argue that Baldurs Gate has more in common with a Light RPG than a Computer or Western RPG. Your characters are fixed, you are stuck in your class when you choose it, the story rarely changes and it always follows a typical plot line, unlike full freedom that games like Skyrim can provide.

And in that sense, Deus Ex and Witcher 2 are kind of in the same grey area BioWare games are; they are both at the same time. They have Light RPG tropes because it is the emphasis on the story, but they have Western RPG methodology, giving that feeling of expression, which is one of the few things I actually agreed with on the Extra Credits "take" on the two genres. So really, BioWare is both at the same time, which is why the whole "Light RPGs are bad because of X, Y and Z" is frankly a foolish argument because BioWare does it too. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 23 avril 2012 - 03:06 .

[TheRealJayDee]

LeBurns wrote...

I would have to see combat footage that doesn't look like Ninja Space Monkeys in heat.

Lots of valid points made in this thread. But given my overall reduced interest in the franchise this would definitely be neccessary to even get me to take a closer look at DA3.