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[The Night Mammoth]

Eire Icon wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

"Wait, how important are you to the Reaper war effort? Are you EM-shielded? Admiral Hackett, can I get a nuke on my location please?"

Your location is the Citadel, with the crucible attached to it

Wont need the Crucible if the Catalyst's death affects the Reapers like it could. It would be a gamble, but apparently using the Crucible is a gamble. 

[Noelemahc]

Your location is the Citadel, with the crucible attached to it

I was asking for a NUKE on my location, not a CHECK.

And when has Shepard ever convinced a Reaper of anything?

When he shot the one on Rannoch in the eye as the mechanical bastard was lying in front of him, bleeding out.

No, Arrival had a cutscene that ended in CMF, not an "ending."

It had a cutscene, at least. ME3 doesn't even dignify us with that.

Wont need the Crucible if the Catalyst's death affects the Reapers like
it could. It would be a gamble, but apparently using the Crucible is a
gamble.

My point eggsactly. If the Catalyst is important, we win even if Shepard dies. If the Citadel is important and the Catalyst is not, well, what the hey, next cycle wins even if current cycle forces will be blargblarged by the Reapers. BTW, the Reapers will also be far less numerous next time around, we see at least a dozen die onscreen throughout ME3.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 16 avril 2012 - 03:15 .

[Eire Icon]

a.m.p wrote...

Because
1) 'The Shepard'. Why do you call a person you know existed and you know was called Shepard "the Shepard"? You don't. Unless it's a creepy cult, which would be worse. That means at some point historical records of the event, if there were any, were lost and no contact with more informed people was made.

2) The old man's speech about planets being homes to all sorts of different life. To me it clearly says that he has as clear an idea, what is actually out there in space, as my own grandfather right now does. This is not a person in an advanced multi-species spacefaring galactic community talking.

1. Because he's talking to a small child. He's telling a story as opposed to delivering a history lesson.

2. Regardless of the state of space travel, humanity is still capable of recording history. They didn't have their memories wiped.  As long as they can speak, read, and write "The time their existance nearly came to an end" is not going to be simply forgotten

This is a case of people reading way too much into things. Its a man telling a child a story - thats all

Modifié par Eire Icon, 16 avril 2012 - 03:20 .

[Rhazeal]

Avissel wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...
He dosen't question Vigil, he dosen't question the beacons, theres allot he dosen't question

He's badly injured, Humanity is on the brink of extinction, and he's given three options. He has nothing to bargain with and he's fresh out of options. Every second he spends questioning the Catalyst people are dying and suffering throughout the Galaxy

Again its only my opinion but my Shepard wasn't hanging around to play 20 questions

He doesn't have a reason to question Vigil or the beacons.  It's kind of different when the thing that is responsabile for the murder of (a number higher than I can actaully think of) tells you I DID IT ALL TO SAVE ORGANICS FOR....SOME REASON!

and SHepard reaction is "Seem legit, so what do I do now boss?"

Indeed. Its pretty hard to overstate this point.

The 'Guardian' has brutally rendered every sentient being, from any organic race that had the temerity venture beyond their primordial sphere, into the oblivion of nothingness. But the fate is worse for the 'chosen race'  which is forged in to a souless automaton, a warmachine that has no existence but to inflict that selfsame fate upon further untold trillions upon trillions.

This guy totally has our back just do what he says.

Modifié par Rhazeal, 16 avril 2012 - 03:18 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Avissel wrote...

and SHepard reaction is "Seem legit, so what do I do now boss?"

Whether its legit or not is irrelevant. You can argue him until you're blue in the face while your friends die outside, will that make you feel better?

I could ask for clarification on what these options actually do, ask the Catalyst to tell me why I should agree its problem is legitimate, point out how its solutions don't seem to solve its dilemna. 

If all that fails, I could tell it to **** itself with a rusty dagger and then tell Hackett to keep fighting. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 avril 2012 - 03:18 .

[Eire Icon]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

"Wait, how important are you to the Reaper war effort? Are you EM-shielded? Admiral Hackett, can I get a nuke on my location please?"

Your location is the Citadel, with the crucible attached to it

Wont need the Crucible if the Catalyst's death affects the Reapers like it could. It would be a gamble, but apparently using the Crucible is a gamble. 

The Catalyst is a hologram - there is nothing to suggest he's physically there

[Sangheili_1337]

Shepard has always had the capacity to do the improbable. He has the ability to create an alliance between Krogans and Turians, Geth and Quarians through logic and charisma. Why shouldn't Shepard argue with the catalyst? All he has to do is point to the Geth and EDI as evidence that synthetics and organics can coexist. He is also able to dialogue his way past Saren and the Illusive man.

What makes the star child different?

[PsyrenY]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I could ask for clarification on what these options actually do, ask the Catalyst to tell me why I should agree its problem is legitimate, point out how its solutions don't seem to solve its dilemna.

The first one I agree with. Second and third, it responds with "perhaps, but I'm sticking to it." What then?

The Night Mammoth wrote...
If all that fails, I could tell it to **** itself with a rusty dagger and then tell Hackett to keep fighting.

I'm sure that will feel very comforting when all your friends are slaughtered.

Sangheili_1337 wrote...

What makes the star child different?

For starters, he's a Reaper.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 16 avril 2012 - 03:25 .

[Noelemahc]

The Catalyst is a hologram - there is nothing to suggest he's physically there

's why I suggest nuking the entire Citadel. He's embedded in it, he says so himself.

[a.m.p]

Eire Icon wrote...

1. Because he's talking to a small child. He's telling a story as opposed to delivering a history lesson.

2. Regardless of the state of space travel, humanity is still capable of recording history. They didn't have their memories wiped.  As long as they can speak, read, and write "The time their existance nearly came to an end" is not going to be simply forgotten

This is a case of people reading way too much into things. Its a man telling a child a story - thats all

1. My grandfather didn't tell me stories about The Zhukov when I was a child. That would be at the very least insulting for the man in question and extremely stupid. This could have beem avoided by dropping the article, but they insisted to put it there. Why - no idea.

2. Space travel as a sign of advanced civilization is what this is about. If there is no space travel 10000 years in the future, what was the point of trying to save this cycle? We weren't trying to save pre-space life, reapers make sure pre-space life continues. We were trying to save our civilization. Stargazer tells us we've destroyed it.

Modifié par a.m.p, 16 avril 2012 - 03:30 .

[Unit-Alpha]

The Angry One wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Synthsis wins for me, everytime.

You should've just let Saren kill you and save yourself a whole lot of work then.

My thoughts on synthesis exactly.

[The Night Mammoth]

Eire Icon wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

Noelemahc wrote...

"Wait, how important are you to the Reaper war effort? Are you EM-shielded? Admiral Hackett, can I get a nuke on my location please?"

Your location is the Citadel, with the crucible attached to it

Wont need the Crucible if the Catalyst's death affects the Reapers like it could. It would be a gamble, but apparently using the Crucible is a gamble. 

The Catalyst is a hologram - there is nothing to suggest he's physically there

It's not about physically killing the apparition in front of Shepard, like the kid is going to go up in flames. 

But he has to come from somewhere, and that is apparently the Citadel. Destroy it, and it seems likely that the Reapers will be weakened once their master is dead. 

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...

1. My grandfather didn't tell me stories about The Zhukov when I was a child. That would be insulting for the man in question. This could have beem avoided by dropping the article, but they insisted to put it there. Why - no idea.

2. Space travel as a sign of advanced civilization is what this is about. If there is no space travel 10000 years in the future, what was the point of trying to save this cycle? We weren't trying to save pre-space life, reapers make sure pre-space life continues. We were trying to save our civilization. Stargazer tells us we've destroyed it.

1) In a nutshell - because Shepard rhymes with Shepherd. So your name became a symbolic title.

2) If Stargazer and kid are human then we succeeded, no matter what tech level they have to deal with. What has been created can be recreated. and clearly they aren't cavemen either.

[FlyingSquirrel]

What bothers me is that Shepard doesn't even *ask* the Starchild if there's another way to use the Crucible that would stop the Reaper attacks without either (a) killing all synthetics; ( making one individual (Shepard) the new Reaper overlord; or © rewriting the nature of life for the entire galaxy. And if Starchild says no, then Shepard should at least radio EDI and the quarians and/or geth to ask if there's any way they can hack the Crucible's systems to stop the Reaper attacks with less radical side effects.

Also, who is Shepard to make this decision on behalf of the entire galaxy? The fact that we're arguing about it here suggests that some of the allied races might have pretty strong opinions on whether they can live with the destruction of all synthetics, whether they want to become organic/synthetic hybrids, or whether they trust Shepard to take control of the Reapers.

[Saint Op]

oh my god this whole thing would be wonderful. I so need to see this.

Shepard: Hey umm yeah You know that weapon I got everyone to leave their home worlds for & dedicate all their experts & scientists & solders too. The one I said was our only shot at beating the reapers. Well it says I can destroy them but I don't really trust it & I don't want to surrender to its way of thinking somehow so can you all just blow it up...& the citadel too.

Everyone:?!?

Javik: I am going to go beat the hell out of Shepard. I'll be right back.

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

1) In a nutshell - because Shepard rhymes with Shepherd. So your name became a symbolic title.

2) If Stargazer and kid are human then we succeeded, no matter what tech level they have to deal with. What has been created can be recreated. and clearly they aren't cavemen either.

1) Which is possibly the worst thing that could be ever done to Shepard. Well. My Shepard, I guess this is subjective but you are the first person I meet who wants that kind of legacy for your character. See, my Shepard isn't a hero and a role model and if she knew that somewhere someone was turning her into a messianic figure she'd be aghast.

2) In 10000 years still not recreated? Don't get me wrong I can totally see, how, if the relays didn't pull an arrival, within a few centuries limited travel could be restored, the council space partly rebuilt and maybe someone would even try and recreate the relays. I even made a thread about how to solve the logistic problems. But stargazer tells me that in 10000 years none of that was done. What happened? Are they ever going to rebuild if they didn't in 10000 years? Why is Bioware then not showing a scene from even further in the future when they did rebuild? Did they run out of money and couldn't render one last cutscene with a new strange ship going through a rebuilt relay?

Modifié par a.m.p, 16 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[GiarcYekrub]

Don't forget in the mass effect universe data is stored in dna and objects that you encounter javik,beacons,rachni,thorian,asari all pass information as thought as much as synthetics pass arround data, cycle after cycle the galaxy itself must be speeding along technological evolution with the memories of the past.

People are also assuming that the reapers are the instigators of the cycle, that the prothean VI observed, where its quite possible that the Catalyst is not the implied controller of the cycle but merely the synthetics solution to the same observed pattern.

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I could ask for clarification on what these options actually do, ask the Catalyst to tell me why I should agree its problem is legitimate, point out how its solutions don't seem to solve its dilemna.

The first one I agree with. Second and third, it responds with "perhaps, but I'm sticking to it." What then?

It's not about convincing the Catalyst he's wrong. I think it would provide a bit more context and perspective to decide what choice to make. 

You could confront it him about the Geth and EDI, and if he says something along the lines of "we've seen it happen countless times. It is only by our intervention that organic life exists at all", then provides some sort of exampl, that's something you would have to accept.

After, you could ask why you should choose these three options and why you're being offered them. Destroy does not prevent organics from creating synthetics, control has a dozen variables that could be cleared up, and of course, synthesis is completely ambiguous, so a good deal of clarification on the advantages of that wouldn't be bad. 

There's precious little information given by such an important character on such an important plot point. 

The Night Mammoth wrote...
If all that fails, I could tell it to **** itself with a rusty dagger and then tell Hackett to keep fighting.

I'm sure that will feel very comforting when all your friends are slaughtered.

Depends whether you think they will be, but it's obvious where this conversation is going so I think we should agree to disagree. 

I will say this though: the reason I played Mass Effect 1 and 2 so much in the build up to ME3's release is so I could achieve the best possible outcome by making all the right choices and preparing as much as I could, it's why I bumped galactic readiness up and gathered as many War Assets as I could, because I thought the more effort I put in the better the outcome would be. All off that feels rather arbitrary in hindsight, when your brother jumps into ME3 without playing the other two, does a bare-bones playthrough, and gets the same result. 

What I'm getting at, is that there's no obviously varying degress of success or failure

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[Gulaman]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Here's B5's version of the "reject" option:




You are trapped in this cycle as much as we are.
But we don't need it, and we don't need you:
We've learned how to stand on our own.
We'll make mistakes; but they'll be our mistakes.
We can find our own way between order and chaos. It's over because we decided it's over.

NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!!!

*That* would have been in line with Shepard's character, regardless of whether you're paragon or renegade.
What Shepard did in ME3's conclusion was more along the line of what Saren intended all along.

 
B5's end to the Shadow war was equally if not more BS than that of ME3.

Modifié par Gulaman, 16 avril 2012 - 04:12 .

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

1) In a nutshell - because Shepard rhymes with Shepherd. So your name became a symbolic title.

2) If Stargazer and kid are human then we succeeded, no matter what tech level they have to deal with. What has been created can be recreated. and clearly they aren't cavemen either.

1) Which is possibly the worst thing that could be ever done to Shepard. Well. My Shepard, I guess this is subjective but you are the first person I meet who wants that kind of legacy for your character. See, my Shepard isn't a hero and a role model and if she knew that somewhere someone was turning her into a messianic figure she'd be aghast.

2) In 10000 years still not recreated? Don't get me wrong I can totally see, how, if the relays didn't pull an arrival, within a few centuries limited travel could be restored, the council space partly rebuilt and maybe someone would even try and recreate the relays. I even made a thread about how to solve the logistic problems. But stargazer tells me that in 10000 years none of that was done. What happened? Are they ever going to rebuild if they didn't in 10000 years? Why is Bioware then not showing a scene from even further in the future when they did rebuild? Did they run out of money and couldn't render one last cutscene with a new strange ship going through a rebuilt relay?

1) Like it or not, even the most renegade of Shepards is a hero. No matter how much of a bastard you are, for instance, you still stop Saren's Geth, stop the Collectors, and of course stop the Reapers' harvest.

2) Where did he say it wasn't done? You're reading an awful lot into that scene.

[Jeremy Winston]

Optimystic_X wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

1) In a nutshell - because Shepard rhymes with Shepherd. So your name became a symbolic title.

2) If Stargazer and kid are human then we succeeded, no matter what tech level they have to deal with. What has been created can be recreated. and clearly they aren't cavemen either.

1) Which is possibly the worst thing that could be ever done to Shepard. Well. My Shepard, I guess this is subjective but you are the first person I meet who wants that kind of legacy for your character. See, my Shepard isn't a hero and a role model and if she knew that somewhere someone was turning her into a messianic figure she'd be aghast.

2) In 10000 years still not recreated? Don't get me wrong I can totally see, how, if the relays didn't pull an arrival, within a few centuries limited travel could be restored, the council space partly rebuilt and maybe someone would even try and recreate the relays. I even made a thread about how to solve the logistic problems. But stargazer tells me that in 10000 years none of that was done. What happened? Are they ever going to rebuild if they didn't in 10000 years? Why is Bioware then not showing a scene from even further in the future when they did rebuild? Did they run out of money and couldn't render one last cutscene with a new strange ship going through a rebuilt relay?

1) Like it or not, even the most renegade of Shepards is a hero. No matter how much of a bastard you are, for instance, you still stop Saren's Geth, stop the Collectors, and of course stop the Reapers' harvest.

2) Where did he say it wasn't done? You're reading an awful lot into that scene.

My impression is that the world of the Stargazer was still pre-space flight.  Possibly even up to our own current level, but not more than that.  He speaks exactly as we would speak to our children today.

In the normal world of ME, space flight was pretty commonplace. People had no trouble travelling, including poor Quarians that were broke and often treated like our homeless today.  Even they were able to travel through space.  If a child asked about going into space, it would be offered for the next vacation or to see relatives or something.

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 16 avril 2012 - 05:51 .

[StElmo]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Now, granted, I don't like Starchild either. I thought the crucible would be more of a conventional weapon that would be like a super laser but I don't get everyone who obsesses over this idea of being able to tell the starchild off. The options he describes aren't HIS options, they're the triggers for firing the crucible. The crucible isn't an Improbability Drive so it's not going to give you the option to turn reapers into bowls of petunias and sperm whales. It's primary design is to kill off all synthetic life in the galaxy but you get some other options if you understand the tech behind it better.

So yes, the options between control, synth (we just spent 3 games fighting against these options and just talked TIM into an hero b/c it was too risky ) and destroy( we just brokered peace between the geth and quarians and have EDI ), do kinda suck, but sometimes life is complicated. I dislike having to kill my new geth buddies or EDI but I appreciate a game that can incorporate a moral delimma.

If you're that turned off by having to decide and you think you should be able to 'defy' the starchild, then don't pick anything. Shepard bleeds out on the Citadel, the fleets lose to the reapers and the current cycle ends. Simple as that.

Should be what we all thought it would be, a conventional weapon.

So we get an ending more like this:

[Jeremy Winston]

Actually, Paragon Shep doesn't even want to destroy the reapers. He just wants to have a good chat with Harbinger over a beer or two.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Here's B5's version of the "reject" option:




You are trapped in this cycle as much as we are.
But we don't need it, and we don't need you:
We've learned how to stand on our own.
We'll make mistakes; but they'll be our mistakes.
We can find our own way between order and chaos. It's over because we decided it's over.

NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!!!

*That* would have been in line with Shepard's character, regardless of whether you're paragon or renegade.
What Shepard did in ME3's conclusion was more along the line of what Saren intended all along.

Win!