276 réponses à ce sujet

[Eire Icon]

The Angry One wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

I don't get it either OP

The Reapers are on the verge of victory, earth is getting destroyed, and Shepard is simply not in a position to bargin or negotiate

For me (and its purely my own opinion) were Shepard to refuse to choose the starchild would simply say

"Very well then the cycle will continue"

What possible motivation would Shepard have not to choose? His mission is to stop the reapers at all costs, he has now been given that option.

People complain that the ending goes against the themes of the ME series. One constant is that Shepard is determined to fight the Reapers, the player has no choice here (Logically enough). For Shepard to turn around and refuse to end the Reaper threat to me at least is completely illogical

Because Shepard would end the Reaper threat ON THEIR TERMS, not the Reaper's.
The real Shepard would put their faith in the fleet to defeat the Reapers conventionally, not Reaper space magic to maybe end the Reaper threat (because the lying Reaper king in front of you says so?).

To me thats illogical - Throughout the game it is constantly brought up that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally, and there is nothing to suggest they can be. Any faith Shepard puts in the fleet (or whats left of it) is blind faith

Earth is on its last legs, its literally about to fall. Shepards orders are in hand

 Are you honestly suggesting that sacrificing humanity and earth (Along with numerous other species and planets) is preferable to ending the threat?

I'd like to see that debrief if Shepard gets off the Citadel

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Why would Shepard put faith in a conventional victory when we've already been told throughout the whole game that it's not an option. Period, point blank. The reapers are too strong even with all the galaxy's militaries.

The codex says differently.

And what was the point of building the crucible in the first place if a conventional victory was possible? 

Because short sighted fools like Hackett invested in this costly boondoggle because they were too scared.
The codex and the nature of the current Reaper invasion - the first in billions of years to be disrupted from the norm by the Prothean sabotage - say that there's a chance the Reapers could be beaten conventionally.

[Funkdrspot]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Here's B5's version of the "reject" option:




You are trapped in this cycle as much as we are.
But we don't need it, and we don't need you:
We've learned how to stand on our own.
We'll make mistakes; but they'll be our mistakes.
We can find our own way between order and chaos. It's over because we decided it's over.

NOW GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR GALAXY!!!

*That* would have been in line with Shepard's character, regardless of whether you're paragon or renegade.
What Shepard did in ME3's conclusion was more along the line of what Saren intended all along.

Ok, and again,

1. Shepard bleeds out on the citadel
2. The galaxy militaries collapse against the reapers
3. Reapers win

So you got on your soap box and grandstanded, but what was the point? You want an option to literally throw away everything you worked for and billions of lives b/c you don't like what the crucible can do? 

[The Angry One]

Eire Icon wrote...

To me thats illogical - Throughout the game it is constantly brought up that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally, and there is nothing to suggest they can be. Any faith Shepard puts in the fleet (or whats left of it) is blind faith

Earth is on its last legs, its literally about to fall. Shepards orders are in hand

Assumptions. One ground team had fallen. That's it. The fleet was still there and largely intact with high EMS.

Are you honestly suggesting that sacrificing humanity and earth (Along with numerous other species and planets) is preferable to ending the threat?

I'd like to see that debrief if Shepard gets off the Citadel

It's worth defying the will of the Reaper commander. It's worth finding another way. "We'll fight and win without it. I won't let fear compromise who I am."

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Why would Shepard put faith in a conventional victory when we've already been told throughout the whole game that it's not an option. Period, point blank. The reapers are too strong even with all the galaxy's militaries.

The codex says differently.

And what was the point of building the crucible in the first place if a conventional victory was possible? 

Because short sighted fools like Hackett invested in this costly boondoggle because they were too scared.
The codex and the nature of the current Reaper invasion - the first in billions of years to be disrupted from the norm by the Prothean sabotage - say that there's a chance the Reapers could be beaten conventionally.

Where does the codex say differently? 

And lol sabotaging the citadel relay is nothing close to defeating the reapers outright in a head on fight.

[xxskyshadowxx]

Eire Icon wrote...

I don't get it either OP

The Reapers are on the verge of victory, earth is getting destroyed, and Shepard is simply not in a position to bargin or negotiate

For me (and its purely my own opinion) were Shepard to refuse to choose the starchild would simply say

"Very well then the cycle will continue"

What possible motivation would Shepard have not to choose? His mission is to stop the reapers at all costs, he has now been given that option.

People complain that the ending goes against the themes of the ME series. One constant is that Shepard is determined to fight the Reapers, the player has no choice here (Logically enough). For Shepard to turn around and refuse to end the Reaper threat to me at least is completely illogical

Well if the Catalyst said "Very well then the cycle will continue," my Shepard would jump for joy because that is what she was fighting for. Don't forget, the Reapers are here to END the current cycle.

That aside, there are other options that my Shepard would have prolly explored, that the writers themselves set up and then blithely ignored in their Matrix/Deus Ex 1 ripoff ending. Hell....my Shepard had saved the Geth, who have intimate knowledge and experience with Reaper code....I would have talked them into diving in and just shutting it down. Just one of multiple options the writers set up....then dropped in favor of changing their "vastly diverse endings" into one badly written, unoriginal, slapped on ending.

[Eire Icon]

cogsandcurls wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

What possible motivation would Shepard have not to choose? His mission is to stop the reapers at all costs, he has now been given that option.

Integrity?

You may not agree with that but thing is, everybody's Shep is different, and at least some of them ARE going to be about death-before-compromise.

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Because extinction is preferable to submission.

And no, non-standard game overs don't count. Stop pretending they do.

But who is being placed in submission? No one. You're just dramaticizing the outcome because you don't like it.

Just because your Shepard is the kind of person who would just blindly follow the advice of a Reaper and choose one of it's "solutions," despite the many, many problems with all three of the choices doesn't mean that everyone's Shepard should have to be that weak and mindless. The developers themselves said it's all about player choice after all. There should be a "B.S." response choice as well.

Shepard has always opposed the Reapers, and fought against the Reaper threat, there has never been player choice in this.

What's being suggested is basically surrender ?

[cogsandcurls]

mbr.to wrote...

word up op.
absolutely true.

people are asking for the "sacrifice everyone (except me)" option
what a hero xD

Apart from the bit where I don't think anyone said "I want everyone in the galaxy to go down fighting but heavily-wounded Shep has to live ofc". I'm really confused, who suggested that rejecting Casper should result in everyone dying except Shep?

Can't speak for anyone else but I'm working on a sort of "we fight together, live together or die together" scenario.

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

1. Shepard bleeds out on the citadel

Alright, that's it. Prove Shepard would bleed out. It seems to me that Shepard had in fact stopped bleeding.

2. The galaxy militaries collapse against the reapers

Prove it.

3. Reapers win

If you take one of the 3 Reaper invented, Reaper approved choices, the Reapers win.

So you got on your soap box and grandstanded, but what was the point? You want an option to literally throw away everything you worked for and billions of lives b/c you don't like what the crucible can do? 

In the current endings, we throw the galaxy away and betray EVERYONE. Yeah that was worth it.

[curufinwe03]

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Why would Shepard put faith in a conventional victory when we've already been told throughout the whole game that it's not an option. Period, point blank. The reapers are too strong even with all the galaxy's militaries.

The codex says differently.

And what was the point of building the crucible in the first place if a conventional victory was possible? 

Because short sighted fools like Hackett invested in this costly boondoggle because they were too scared.
The codex and the nature of the current Reaper invasion - the first in billions of years to be disrupted from the norm by the Prothean sabotage - say that there's a chance the Reapers could be beaten conventionally.

Maybe, if the allied fleet would remember that they have Thanix cannons. I guess it's fair to think that they just forget about them.

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

To me thats illogical - Throughout the game it is constantly brought up that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally, and there is nothing to suggest they can be. Any faith Shepard puts in the fleet (or whats left of it) is blind faith

Earth is on its last legs, its literally about to fall. Shepards orders are in hand

Assumptions. One ground team had fallen. That's it. The fleet was still there and largely intact with high EMS.

Are you honestly suggesting that sacrificing humanity and earth (Along with numerous other species and planets) is preferable to ending the threat?

I'd like to see that debrief if Shepard gets off the Citadel

It's worth defying the will of the Reaper commander. It's worth finding another way. "We'll fight and win without it. I won't let fear compromise who I am."

LoL you still can't wrap you head around it can you. It's not the reapers will. They didn't make the crucible. He is explaining what your choices are but he has not given you those choices, you did that on your own.

[Eire Icon]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

[
Well if the Catalyst said "Very well then the cycle will continue," my Shepard would jump for joy because that is what she was fighting for. Don't forget, the Reapers are here to END the current cycle.
.

I meant the cycle of extinction

[xxskyshadowxx]

Eire Icon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

I don't get it either OP

The Reapers are on the verge of victory, earth is getting destroyed, and Shepard is simply not in a position to bargin or negotiate

For me (and its purely my own opinion) were Shepard to refuse to choose the starchild would simply say

"Very well then the cycle will continue"

What possible motivation would Shepard have not to choose? His mission is to stop the reapers at all costs, he has now been given that option.

People complain that the ending goes against the themes of the ME series. One constant is that Shepard is determined to fight the Reapers, the player has no choice here (Logically enough). For Shepard to turn around and refuse to end the Reaper threat to me at least is completely illogical

Because Shepard would end the Reaper threat ON THEIR TERMS, not the Reaper's.
The real Shepard would put their faith in the fleet to defeat the Reapers conventionally, not Reaper space magic to maybe end the Reaper threat (because the lying Reaper king in front of you says so?).

 Are you honestly suggesting that sacrificing humanity and earth (Along with numerous other species and planets) is preferable to ending the threat?

In  all possible choices, you blow up the Relays....so you sacrifice humanity and earth regardless of which of the Reapers' options you go with. And Shepard, who had seen what blowing a relay does, doesn't even question it -at all-. That's not okay.

[The Angry One]

Eire Icon wrote...

What's being suggested is basically surrender ?

Surrender is taking a choice that the freaking LEADER OF THE REAPERS gives you.

[Funkdrspot]

curufinwe03 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Why would Shepard put faith in a conventional victory when we've already been told throughout the whole game that it's not an option. Period, point blank. The reapers are too strong even with all the galaxy's militaries.

The codex says differently.

And what was the point of building the crucible in the first place if a conventional victory was possible? 

Because short sighted fools like Hackett invested in this costly boondoggle because they were too scared.
The codex and the nature of the current Reaper invasion - the first in billions of years to be disrupted from the norm by the Prothean sabotage - say that there's a chance the Reapers could be beaten conventionally.

Maybe, if the allied fleet would remember that they have Thanix cannons. I guess it's fair to think that they just forget about them.

I think that this was a slip up by whoever made the video but the point hammered home throughout the game is that this war can't be won conventionally.

So if Bioware did that video right, we'd see thanix cannons, but then we'd see a ton more reapers.

[KingZayd]

The Angry One wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

the way to defy the starchild is to pick destroy. It's the only option it doesn't like.

It doesn't appear to like control either seeing as it feels the need to obfuscate just how you'll control them by claiming you will die.
Funnily enough the only option where he doesn't say you will die is the one where you do in fact die with no ambiguity (synthesis).

Lying little creep that he is.

it says it will work. Destroy he says is doomed to fail. Clearly he prefers synthesis, but destroy is also clearly his least favourite

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

LoL you still can't wrap you head around it can you. It's not the reapers will. They didn't make the crucible. He is explaining what your choices are but he has not given you those choices, you did that on your own.

Yeah, that's the fun part. They just designed the Crucible. Then the organics make it like a bunch of saps.
The choices are designed by the Catalyst, or it's creators.

[GiarcYekrub]

Tsantilas wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Synthsis wins for me, everytime.

You should've just let Saren kill you and save yourself a whole lot of work then.

Except that Saren was being controlled by the reapers, and I don't think letting Saren have his way with things would have the same result as the synthesis option in ME3.  It's supposedly an "ascension" option on your own terms, not being controlled by the reapers.

People need to stop being so self righteous and acting like anyone who doesn't choose destroy is wrong.  There is no "evil" choice.

Exactly This.

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

I think that this was a slip up by whoever made the video but the point hammered home throughout the game is that this war can't be won conventionally.

So if Bioware did that video right, we'd see thanix cannons, but then we'd see a ton more reapers.

Read. The. Codex.

[Funkdrspot]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

In  all possible choices, you blow up the Relays....so you sacrifice humanity and earth regardless of which of the Reapers' options you go with. And Shepard, who had seen what blowing a relay does, doesn't even question it -at all-. That's not okay.

The relay issue has already been addressed. You're working off old assumptions.

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

What's being suggested is basically surrender ?

Surrender is taking a choice that the freaking LEADER OF THE REAPERS gives you.

Again, he doesn't give you those choices, he only explains the choices you have given yourself.

[Tigerman123]

How exactly can the Reapers be defeated conventionally? We've known from our first encounter with Sovereign that they have vast numbers and are far superior technologically, this isn't some contrivance of ME3, it was established at the outset. Add to that the fact that the Reapers have millions of years of experience and superior intelligence, it seems rather unlikely that they could be defeated without an external weapon

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

I think that this was a slip up by whoever made the video but the point hammered home throughout the game is that this war can't be won conventionally.

So if Bioware did that video right, we'd see thanix cannons, but then we'd see a ton more reapers.

Read. The. Codex.

I have. what. am. i. missing? 

[KingZayd]

Tsantilas wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Synthsis wins for me, everytime.

You should've just let Saren kill you and save yourself a whole lot of work then.

Except that Saren was being controlled by the reapers, and I don't think letting Saren have his way with things would have the same result as the synthesis option in ME3.  It's supposedly an "ascension" option on your own terms, not being controlled by the reapers.

Saren thought it was on his own terms too. What makes you think you're so much stronger than Saren?

Modifié par KingZayd, 16 avril 2012 - 12:45 .

[GiarcYekrub]

The Angry One wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

What's being suggested is basically surrender ?

Surrender is taking a choice that the freaking LEADER OF THE REAPERS gives you.

I think the kid is a VI like Avina and Vigil, It's the interface to fire the crucible and give a little understanding