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[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

What's being suggested is basically surrender ?

Surrender is taking a choice that the freaking LEADER OF THE REAPERS gives you.

Again, he doesn't give you those choices, he only explains the choices you have given yourself.

Explain how the Crucible could interface with the Citadel to provide these functions without any organic race knowing what they did. You can't.
The Crucible was designed by the Catalyst or it's creators.

[The Angry One]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

What's being suggested is basically surrender ?

Surrender is taking a choice that the freaking LEADER OF THE REAPERS gives you.

I think the kid is a VI like Avina and Vigil, It's the interface to fire the crucible and give a little understanding

Thank you for again providing an example of those liking the ending not paying attention to it.

"I control the Reapers. They are my solution."

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

LoL you still can't wrap you head around it can you. It's not the reapers will. They didn't make the crucible. He is explaining what your choices are but he has not given you those choices, you did that on your own.

Yeah, that's the fun part. They just designed the Crucible. Then the organics make it like a bunch of saps.
The choices are designed by the Catalyst, or it's creators.

lol now here's where you're reaching. We have no idea if they have any hand in the crucible. But you've gone on to assume all that.

[Kalas82]

The Angry One wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Synthsis wins for me, everytime.

You should've just let Saren kill you and save yourself a whole lot of work then.

A tip for future discussions on this board, don`t bring facts, logic or normal-human-sense into discussions with people who liked the ending. It`s literaly cause they don´t care bout writing, they don´t think about the story, they accept blind what the (a) story throws at them and are content with it. I`m kinda happy for them, but trying to argue on that term is just futile.
Every little take of the ending can be easily ripped apart, has been done here countless times and still there`s a minority thinking it was "good" writing, trying to explain everything with imagination and speculation.
Ít`s not even the writing alone, even the cutscenes etc. can`t get continuity right.
The father of this abomination is probably quite amused how he found some people who fill all the plotholes, etc. for him. Gotta figure, i would be more than happy if my patients would behave like that...kinda boring..but heck.
Imagine talking to a religious fanatic, fanboyism grows to be a religion of it`s own

[Tleining]

Funkdrspot wrote...

I take it reading isn't your strong suit...it choices aren't the starchild's solutions, they're literally built into the citadel/crucible. It's how the machine was meant to work. Period.

Next you'll be telling me it's weak willed to expect guns to work by pulling the trigger.

The Citadel was build by the Reapers. Any Solutions/Choices build into the Citadel are the Reapers/Starchilds Solution.

Please explain to me how any Species can develop a Weapon that needs the Catalyst as an integral Part when Shepard is the first Organic to meet the Catalyst?

About the Gun: Yeah, pretty much. You need to take off the safety first.

[xxskyshadowxx]

Eire Icon wrote...

cogsandcurls wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

What possible motivation would Shepard have not to choose? His mission is to stop the reapers at all costs, he has now been given that option.

Integrity?

You may not agree with that but thing is, everybody's Shep is different, and at least some of them ARE going to be about death-before-compromise.

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Because extinction is preferable to submission.

And no, non-standard game overs don't count. Stop pretending they do.

But who is being placed in submission? No one. You're just dramaticizing the outcome because you don't like it.

Just because your Shepard is the kind of person who would just blindly follow the advice of a Reaper and choose one of it's "solutions," despite the many, many problems with all three of the choices doesn't mean that everyone's Shepard should have to be that weak and mindless. The developers themselves said it's all about player choice after all. There should be a "B.S." response choice as well.

Shepard has always opposed the Reapers, and fought against the Reaper threat, there has never been player choice in this.

What's being suggested is basically surrender ?

Shepard has also always questioned options that made no sense before making the hard choices. This is not what happened in the ending. Shepard blindly takes the advise of a Reaper and chooses -it's- options and then basically blows up the galaxy in all three choices.

That right there is surrender.

There are lots of other options that could have been explored, but weren't. It's possible that they would have been had the whole writing team been involved with the ending, rather than two people who locked their peers out of the process due to their own hubris.

[Jassu1979]

Funkdrspot wrote...
Ok, and again,

1. Shepard bleeds out on the citadel
2. The galaxy militaries collapse against the reapers
3. Reapers win

So you got on your soap box and grandstanded, but what was the point? You want an option to literally throw away everything you worked for and billions of lives b/c you don't like what the crucible can do? 

More like this:

1. Shepard uses his radio to tell the fleet about the Catalyst: it controls the reapers, it's (part of/at home in) the Citadel, so everyone opens fire and blasts it to smithereens.
2. The Reapers lose their leader, falling into chaos, making a conventional victory possible.

By the way, the Reapers' victory in previous cycles was mostly due to the fact that galactic civilization always used the citadel as its political centre, allowing the Reapers to throw the whole galaxy into chaos by means of their surprise attack. That, and indoctrination.

[curufinwe03]

Funkdrspot wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

Maybe, if the allied fleet would remember that they have Thanix cannons. I guess it's fair to think that they just forget about them.

I think that this was a slip up by whoever made the video but the point hammered home throughout the game is that this war can't be won conventionally.

So if Bioware did that video right, we'd see thanix cannons, but then we'd see a ton more reapers.

I disagree. It is stated in the codex that a Thanix cannon can shoot trough kinetic barriers, which are the main defense of the reapers. Sovereign was immediatly destroyed after it's shield was down. They can be installed on frigats. Do i have to remind you that the Normandy destroyed a collector cruiser with two shots? So if four dreadnaughts are needed to penetrate a reaper's shield with mass accelerators but a Thanix shoots through them, i think it is fair to assume  that these weapons could change the war.

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...


Alright, that's it. Prove Shepard would bleed out. It seems to me that Shepard had in fact stopped bleeding.

Lol the guy just woke up from passing out and not having the strength to even stand up a few seconds ago. The last thing you see before you pass out is that you're bleeding from your side. I'm gonna go ahead and assume that he's bleeding to death.

The Angry One wrote...
Prove it.

Hackett says they can't win conventionally throughout the whole game. Otherwise I'm sure he'd organize a better battleplan than going head to head.

The Angry One wrote...
If you take one of the 3 Reaper invented, Reaper approved choices, the Reapers win.

If i kill the reapers, they win? lol.

The Angry One wrote...
In the current endings, we throw the galaxy away and betray EVERYONE. Yeah that was worth it.

How do you throw the galaxy away or betray anyone? Maybe betray the Geth but that's about it.

[Jassu1979]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

I think the kid is a VI like Avina and Vigil, It's the interface to fire the crucible and give a little understanding

You didn't even listen to the in-game dialogue, did you?

[Eire Icon]

The Angry One wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

To me thats illogical - Throughout the game it is constantly brought up that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally, and there is nothing to suggest they can be. Any faith Shepard puts in the fleet (or whats left of it) is blind faith

Earth is on its last legs, its literally about to fall. Shepards orders are in hand

Assumptions. One ground team had fallen. That's it. The fleet was still there and largely intact with high EMS.

Assumptions? - One ground team and the majority of Andersons resistance had been entirely wiped out. Anderson and Hackett who are commanding the resistence and fleet respectively have made it abundently clear that this is a one shot deal. The fleet was not still largely intact, I don't know where your getting that from??

The Angry One wrote...

It's worth defying the will of the Reaper commander. It's worth finding another way. "We'll fight and win without it. I won't let fear compromise who I am."

At that precise moment in time there is no other way. Are you honestly saying that any soldier would gambe the existence of his race in the hope that another option may present itself ?

Shepards orders are to stop the Reapers at all costs not "Stop the Reapers but only on your terms, if you can't stop them on your terms then screw it let them wipe us all out"

Modifié par Eire Icon, 16 avril 2012 - 12:54 .

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

LoL you still can't wrap you head around it can you. It's not the reapers will. They didn't make the crucible. He is explaining what your choices are but he has not given you those choices, you did that on your own.

Yeah, that's the fun part. They just designed the Crucible. Then the organics make it like a bunch of saps.
The choices are designed by the Catalyst, or it's creators.

lol now here's where you're reaching. We have no idea if they have any hand in the crucible. But you've gone on to assume all that.

Logical conclusion. Feel free to give a better explanation.

[Kreid]

I don't think people do realize that the Catalyst wasn't giving you any options, he was just explaining what you could do when you fire the Crucible, telling him off would be stupid.

Modifié par Creid-X, 16 avril 2012 - 12:51 .

[Eire Icon]

Kalas82 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Synthsis wins for me, everytime.

You should've just let Saren kill you and save yourself a whole lot of work then.

A tip for future discussions on this board, don`t bring facts, logic or normal-human-sense into discussions with people who liked the ending. It`s literaly cause they don´t care bout writing, they don´t think about the story, they accept blind what the (a) story throws at them and are content with it. I`m kinda happy for them, but trying to argue on that term is just futile.
Every little take of the ending can be easily ripped apart, has been done here countless times and still there`s a minority thinking it was "good" writing, trying to explain everything with imagination and speculation.
Ít`s not even the writing alone, even the cutscenes etc. can`t get continuity right.
The father of this abomination is probably quite amused how he found some people who fill all the plotholes, etc. for him. Gotta figure, i would be more than happy if my patients would behave like that...kinda boring..but heck.
Imagine talking to a religious fanatic, fanboyism grows to be a religion of it`s own

I actually don't like the ending - I just simply do not see how rejecting the Catalyst makes any sense

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Lol the guy just woke up from passing out and not having the strength to even stand up a few seconds ago. The last thing you see before you pass out is that you're bleeding from your side. I'm gonna go ahead and assume that he's bleeding to death.

And yet Shepard can:

- Fire a carnifex (known to have a killer recoil) one handed while walking into an explosion. AND SURVIVE IT.
- Grab 900,000 volt paddles.
- Sprint and jump like an olympic champion.

Yeah. Dying. Sure.

Hackett says they can't win conventionally throughout the whole game. Otherwise I'm sure he'd organize a better battleplan than going head to head.

Hackett says lots of things. He's afraid.

If i kill the reapers, they win? lol.

Their agenda wins. Specifically, that of the Catalyst. Remember, the actual Reapers are just his pawns too.
Pawns can be sacrificed.

How do you throw the galaxy away or betray anyone? Maybe betray the Geth but that's about it.

Mass relays down. 10,000 year dark age. Everyone cut off from their homes. Earth devastated by the Citadel impact. Etc.

[Funkdrspot]

curufinwe03 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

curufinwe03 wrote...

Maybe, if the allied fleet would remember that they have Thanix cannons. I guess it's fair to think that they just forget about them.

I think that this was a slip up by whoever made the video but the point hammered home throughout the game is that this war can't be won conventionally.

So if Bioware did that video right, we'd see thanix cannons, but then we'd see a ton more reapers.

I disagree. It is stated in the codex that a Thanix cannon can shoot trough kinetic barriers, which are the main defense of the reapers. Sovereign was immediatly destroyed after it's shield was down. They can be installed on frigats. Do i have to remind you that the Normandy destroyed a collector cruiser with two shots? So if four dreadnaughts are needed to penetrate a reaper's shield with mass accelerators but a Thanix shoots through them, i think it is fair to assume  that these weapons could change the war.

1. The codex does not specifically state what a thanix can do against a reaper barrier, which is worlds stronger than normal barriers

2. Soverign was destroyed b/c it was completely offline and because it was the narrative that Bioware wanted. In addition to their barriers, Reapers have a lot of armor. Think about the armor plating on the Normandy and how it was able to take a thanix w/o blowing up in ME 2

3. Collector ship != Reaper



Having these weapons wouldn't change anything because it's not the narrative Bioware wanted. They would have simply addressed the potential plothole by either throwing out more reapers, making the thanix less powerful against reaper barriers or by giving the reapers more armor.

[Swordfishtrombone]

The problem I see is that if Shepard was in that position, without knowledge of future events, seeing the catalyst SHOULD have made him except deception. First, that the catalyst took a form straight out of his dreams demonstrates that the catalyst, who is behind the reapers, famous for messing with the minds of organics, has gone rummaging in the head of Sheppard.

So why would Sheppard think that what he was seeing at that point, and what he was being told at that point by the apparition, would have anything to do with the truth? Would it not have been far more likely that the catalyst was just toying with Sheppard, and that the options he presented weren't real? That any choise Shepard took from what was offered, would just lead to the death or indoctrination of Sheppard, and the reapers winning?

THAT is why Shepard, at least MY Sheppard, would have rejected the catalyst outright, disbelieving everything he said.

[The Angry One]

Eire Icon wrote...

Assumptions? - One ground team and the majority of Andersons resistance had been entirely wiped out. Anderson and Hackett who are commanding the resistence and fleet respectively have made it abundently clear that this is a one shot deal. The fleet was not still largely intact, I don't where your getting that from??

Where are you getting that the fleet is not intact? With high EMS, you see largely fleet victories against the Reapers. That the ground war was going badly is irrelevant. Fighting a ground war without total air superiority is suicide in any case.

At that precise moment in time there is no other way. Are you honestly saying that any soldier would gambe the existence of his race in the hope that another option may present itself ?

Shepard would.

Shepards orders are to stop the Reapers at all costs not "Stop the Reapers but only on your terms, if you can't stop them on your terms then screw it let them wipe us all out"

Stopping the Reapers does not = following the will of the Reapers.
Again, this is Saren logic.

[DJBare]

Funkdrspot wrote...
I dislike having to kill my new geth buddies or EDI but I appreciate a game that can incorporate a moral delimma.

Of course that assumes the catalyst is telling the truth, and since Sheperd with synthetic parts can take a breath at the end........

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

LoL you still can't wrap you head around it can you. It's not the reapers will. They didn't make the crucible. He is explaining what your choices are but he has not given you those choices, you did that on your own.

Yeah, that's the fun part. They just designed the Crucible. Then the organics make it like a bunch of saps.
The choices are designed by the Catalyst, or it's creators.

lol now here's where you're reaching. We have no idea if they have any hand in the crucible. But you've gone on to assume all that.

Logical conclusion. Feel free to give a better explanation.

the game already gives you one but you've obviously overridden it.

[Eckswhyzed]

Creid-X wrote...

I don't think people do realize that the Catalyst wasn't giving you any options, he was just explaining what you could do when you fire the Crucible, telling him off would be stupid.

Exactly!

And people have started to believe this whole 'don't submit to the reapers' bullcrap. If you don't want to 'submit', just pick destroy!

I, on the other hand, am quite capable of swallowing my pride, making a difficult choice and doing what I think has the best consequences for the galaxy.

[Funkdrspot]

DJBare wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...
I dislike having to kill my new geth buddies or EDI but I appreciate a game that can incorporate a moral delimma.

Of course that assumes the catalyst is telling the truth, and since Sheperd with synthetic parts can take a breath at the end........

The catalyst explicitly states you'll live in the destroy ending.....

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

LoL you still can't wrap you head around it can you. It's not the reapers will. They didn't make the crucible. He is explaining what your choices are but he has not given you those choices, you did that on your own.

Yeah, that's the fun part. They just designed the Crucible. Then the organics make it like a bunch of saps.
The choices are designed by the Catalyst, or it's creators.

lol now here's where you're reaching. We have no idea if they have any hand in the crucible. But you've gone on to assume all that.

Logical conclusion. Feel free to give a better explanation.

the game already gives you one but you've obviously overridden it.

No it does not. The idea that organics by themselves created a device to interface with an unknown second device to perform a function they weren't aware of to do something they couldn't predict is beyond absurd.

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...
I dislike having to kill my new geth buddies or EDI but I appreciate a game that can incorporate a moral delimma.

Of course that assumes the catalyst is telling the truth, and since Sheperd with synthetic parts can take a breath at the end........

The catalyst explicitly states you'll live in the destroy ending.....

No he doesn't. Another pro-ender who didn't actually listen to anything in the ending.
Colour me shocked.

And by the way, if you think Shepard lives in destroy then... you admit Shepard wasn't about to bleed out, right? 

Modifié par The Angry One, 16 avril 2012 - 12:59 .

[Flextt]

While the wording is quite clear ("The Crucible opened up new possibilities") there are several problems..
- If the Crucible and the Catalyst are two parts for one device, who concepted it?
- Since the Catalyst is seemingly surprised by said new possibilities, is there an even higher instance to the Reapers?
- If there was an even higher instance to the Reapers, why was the Catalyst assigned to solve the perceived problem of synthetic life wiping out all organic life? (Not even remotely going into this one)
- Where is that higher instance now?
- If the Crucible is a modification to the purposes of the Catalyst, why does Starkid have clear preferences? He seems to encourage Control and especially Synthesis, but seems to want to talk Shepard out of Destroy. His destruction is not a given, as it is unclear what he exactly is. (AI? Hybrid? Organic? Something else?)