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[Fawx9]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...
I dislike having to kill my new geth buddies or EDI but I appreciate a game that can incorporate a moral delimma.

Of course that assumes the catalyst is telling the truth, and since Sheperd with synthetic parts can take a breath at the end........

The catalyst explicitly states you'll live in the destroy ending.....

If there was ever a perfect time to use the Lex Luther Wrong image this would be it. 

Paraphreashing, but I pretty much have it: "It will wipe out all synthetic life" "Even you are partially synthetic" 

If that's not saying he will most likely die than I don't know what is. 

Sure it leaves the opening for a chance of Shepard surviving but that's cleary not the intention of the star kid telling him that. 

Uh yeah it pretty much is. Notice how he explicitly states that he will die if he tries to control them? 

If he has a good chance of living there's no point in telling him "Even you can die because you are part synthetic" 

The only reason to tell him is becuase he wants to get the point across that you will basically end up killing yourself and anyone else that has synthetic implants. 

[Eire Icon]

Fawx9 wrote...

Which makes no sense if at the end of each cycle the races were leavingbehind things that would help the next. I mean why wouldn't you tell the next cycle how the bloody citidal actually works. 

The Reapers actively wipe out all traces of the previous cycle bar what they want the next cycle to see. This has been explained in ME1

[The Angry One]

Eire Icon wrote...

There is no reason not to believe that the Catalyst is telling the truth. Again Shepard is out of options.

There's no reason to believe the controller of the Reapers, the entity singularily responsible for quadrillions of deaths is not telling the truth?

Shepard isn't gambling everyones future as at that moment in time they have no future, he has nothing to gamble.

They have a future. They're out there fighting for it. The 3 choices take away that future, at the behest of the Reaper overlord.

I find it amazing that you would find extinction preferable to being forced into a difficult and not completely ideal choice

I don't agree that extinction is guaranteed. I say there's a chance. A better chance than just blindly trusting the Reaper king.
But even if it was.. extinction is preferable to doing the bidding of the lord of the Reapers and plunging the galaxy into a dark age that it may never recover from.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Better to die a broken piece of jade than to live a life of clay.

[Funkdrspot]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Hackett says they can't win conventionally throughout the whole game. Otherwise I'm sure he'd organize a better battleplan than going head to head.

Hackett is a fallible mortal. What he says doesn't necessarily match what you do and see in the game. 

You know, like the message you recieve after reaching 100% Galactive Readiness with stupid high war assets, or how the Turians and Krogan were holding their own on Palaven, or how your kill Destroyers left right and center using VERY conventional methods. 

You're so desperate to find a plothole you're reaching.

Hackett is a General and the #1 organizer of all the galaxy's militaries at this point and you're seriously suggesting that somehow he's wrong? 

100% galactic readiness says 'holding and winning in key locations'. But you're winning against ground troops.

The Turians and Krogans are 'holding'. The game actually makes mention about the fact that it's troubling that they're only at a stalemate even WITH the Krogan.

You destroy a destroyer using the 'mother of all thresher maws', then another using the entire might of the quarian fleet AND a specialized guidance laser that can only cut through reaper jamming for a short time.

[DJBare]

Fawx9 wrote...
If he has a good chance of living there's no point in telling him "Even you can die because you are part synthetic"

He never  states that, he states "Even you are part synthetic"; at no point does he say you will die because you are part synthetic, it's only implied from the first sentence "You can wipe all synthetics if you want"

[The Angry One]

Eire Icon wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Which makes no sense if at the end of each cycle the races were leavingbehind things that would help the next. I mean why wouldn't you tell the next cycle how the bloody citidal actually works. 

The Reapers actively wipe out all traces of the previous cycle bar what they want the next cycle to see. This has been explained in ME1

So you think the Reapers want the next cycle to build the Crucible?

[Kreid]

The Angry One wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

I agree with the Citadel part, since we assume this is the very first cycle that didn't see the Reapers coming from it, but, it's clear someone knew about the Catalyst, if not he wouldn't have been mentioned by name in the Crucible's schematics.

That just supports the idea that the Catalyst/it's creators designed it, else how did others know?
Besides the Catalyst they refer to is the Citadel itself, and not spacebaby. Actually spacebaby is lying about being the Catalyst too. It fits neither the in-game definition, nor the dictionary or chemistry definitions.

I understand this, it's just that it makes no sense whatsoever. If the Catalyst instigated the Crucible to begin with, it's logical that the info/schematics would mention him, but, seeing that the Catalyst is the leader of the Reapers you'd think the ones who left behind the schematics would have left this much more important information on display, yet they seem to imply the Catalyst is the Citadel, but, then they knew the Citadel as the Catalyst but didn't know it was an A.I.

And more importantly, why would the Catalyst instigate a device taht could destroy him and end the cycle? It makes no sense unless he really wants for a singularity to occur.

Modifié par Creid-X, 16 avril 2012 - 01:27 .

[Elyiia]

Eire Icon wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Which makes no sense if at the end of each cycle the races were leavingbehind things that would help the next. I mean why wouldn't you tell the next cycle how the bloody citidal actually works. 

The Reapers actively wipe out all traces of the previous cycle bar what they want the next cycle to see. This has been explained in ME1

Which explains the Prothean beacons, oh wait.

Extinction IS preferable to what the options are.
We as a species have relied on the relays for transport so we never developed our own technology. If the Yahg survive the cycle, they don't have this handicap. They never relied on the relays so they're forced to make their own technology. The likehood is after the 10,000 years we're told in game we don't have space flight, the Yahg have built an empire and when we show ourselves again, we'll be enslaved or killed.

[Eire Icon]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

Saren's logic is one of your choices as is TIM's logic....and that is only part of what makes the ending laughably terrible. Regardless...you don't save humanity with any of the choices. You blow the relays in all three choices, which means maybe 4-5 hours after you make that choice, humanity is wiped out.

Shepard knows this...yet doesn't question it at all. Shepard doesn't even ask if blowing the Relays will result in the same catastrophe as what happened in Arrival. Nope. He/she just surrenders to Reaper logic and ends the Cycle in place of the Reapers...and if the Relays do blow the same way and the cinematic strongly suggests that they do, then what Shepard does is WORSE than the Reapers because he/she wipes out the most advanced lifeforms, along with the less advanced lifeforms that the Reapers were leaving alone.

That is not a heroic end to a trilogy; it's not even  bittersweet. It's just sloppy and badly written...and it's not even original. Hell the Cruicable isn't even original...it was done in a anime that was made in the 80's/early 90's (the anime got the bittersweet ending right, by the way).

Just to be clear I don't like the ending, I felt it wasincomplete, left too many unanswered questions and lacked closure

The only point I'm arguing is that an option to refuse to choose would make absolutely no sense to me. I would dislike the ending even more if that was an option

[Funkdrspot]

Fawx9 wrote...

If he has a good chance of living there's no point in telling him "Even you can die because you are part synthetic" 

The only reason to tell him is becuase he wants to get the point across that you will basically end up killing yourself and anyone else that has synthetic implants. 

You might. EMS.

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

You destroy a destroyer using the 'mother of all thresher maws', then another using a small portion of the Quarian fleet not currently engaging the Geth AND a specialized guidance laser that can only cut through reaper jamming for a short time and also easily with a Cain.

Fixed for you.

[Fawx9]

Eire Icon wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Which makes no sense if at the end of each cycle the races were leavingbehind things that would help the next. I mean why wouldn't you tell the next cycle how the bloody citidal actually works. 

The Reapers actively wipe out all traces of the previous cycle bar what they want the next cycle to see. This has been explained in ME1

Crucible plans. 

If they can hide those, they can hide the information for the Citidal.

Or are you going to tell me the Reapers knew of the plans all along?

Cause I don't think you want to do that.  

[The Angry One]

Creid-X wrote...

I understand this, it's just that it makes no sense whatsoever. If the Catalyst instigated the Crucible to begin with, it's logical that the info/schematics would mention him, but, seeing that the Catalyst is the leader of the Reapers you'd think the ones who left behind the schematics would have left this much more important information on display, yet they seem to imply the Catalyst is the Citadel, but, then they knew the Citadel as the Catalyst but didn't know it was an A.I.

And more importantly, why would the Catalyst instigate a device taht could destroy him and end the cycle? i makes no sense unless he really wants for a singularity to occur.

That Catalyst is a psychopath. It may all be a game to him. If organics reach X level of worthiness, then they can make a new choice!
It remains in control throughout, and determines the destiny of the galaxy right until the end.

[Funkdrspot]

Elyiia wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Which makes no sense if at the end of each cycle the races were leavingbehind things that would help the next. I mean why wouldn't you tell the next cycle how the bloody citidal actually works. 

The Reapers actively wipe out all traces of the previous cycle bar what they want the next cycle to see. This has been explained in ME1

Which explains the Prothean beacons, oh wait.

Extinction IS preferable to what the options are.
We as a species have relied on the relays for transport so we never developed our own technology. If the Yahg survive the cycle, they don't have this handicap. They never relied on the relays so they're forced to make their own technology. The likehood is after the 10,000 years we're told in game we don't have space flight, the Yahg have built an empire and when we show ourselves again, we'll be enslaved or killed.

So to you, mass galactic extinction is better than being without the relays. Good to know.

Oh and in case you missed it, there was a thread that talked about travel. It would only take a few years for most races to get back to their homeworlds.

[Shaoken]

To bring up what we know about previous cycles; the Prothean's war against the Reaper's lasted three centuries.That's why you can't defeat Reaper's conventually; they're entirely self-substatined, they don't get weary from war, thy don't have supply lines, they don't feel fear, and they have all the time in the world. They capture a planet and suddenly they can take your own people and use them against you. They can cut off your supply lines and wait for you to run out of fuel and weapons and food. Meanwhile your economy is collapsing (the game even says that the galatic economy will collapse in one year if the war keeps going), you're losing many ships for every one Reaper ship you do destroy, and even if you defeat all of the Reaper's ground forces in an area, they can just ship some from another world they've conquered while you're stuck with your depleted army (good old Roman tactics).

The war against the Reaper's will always devolve into one of attrition, and the Reaper's seem built specifically to win those kinds of war.

[Fawx9]

DJBare wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...
If he has a good chance of living there's no point in telling him "Even you can die because you are part synthetic"

He never  states that, he states "Even you are part synthetic"; at no point does he say you will die because you are part synthetic, it's only implied from the first sentence "You can wipe all synthetics if you want"

Why imply it in the first place then?

The whole point of that implication is to get Shepard thinking that he will not only wipe out pure synthetics but also anyone with implants, like himself. 

[The Angry One]

Funkdrspot wrote...

So to you, mass galactic extinction is better than being without the relays. Good to know.

Oh and in case you missed it, there was a thread that talked about travel. It would only take a few years for most races to get back to their homeworlds.

In case YOU missed it, that idea was debunked.

[Elyiia]

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

You destroy a destroyer using the 'mother of all thresher maws', then another using a small portion of the Quarian fleet not currently engaging the Geth AND a specialized guidance laser that can only cut through reaper jamming for a short time and also easily with a Cain.

Fixed for you.

To be fair, the Cain is only because of the Hades-Canon on the Destroyer vastly weakening it's defences.

[Nightwriter]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Now, granted, I don't like Starchild either. I thought the crucible would be more of a conventional weapon that would be like a super laser but I don't get everyone who obsesses over this idea of being able to tell the starchild off. The options he describes aren't HIS options, they're the triggers for firing the crucible. The crucible isn't an Improbability Drive so it's not going to give you the option to turn reapers into bowls of petunias and sperm whales. It's primary design is to kill off all synthetic life in the galaxy but you get some other options if you understand the tech behind it better.

So yes, the options between control, synth (we just spent 3 games fighting against these options and just talked TIM into an hero b/c it was too risky ) and destroy( we just brokered peace between the geth and quarians and have EDI ), do kinda suck, but sometimes life is complicated. I dislike having to kill my new geth buddies or EDI but I appreciate a game that can incorporate a moral delimma.

If you're that turned off by having to decide and you think you should be able to 'defy' the starchild, then don't pick anything. Shepard bleeds out on the Citadel, the fleets lose to the reapers and the current cycle ends. Simple as that.

See I feel like you're making the mistake of thinking my emotions toward the Starchild are rational.

I promise you there is not a rational thought in my brain when I am firing my gun at the Godbrat.

[DJBare]

Fawx9 wrote...

Why imply it in the first place then?

The whole point of that implication is to get Shepard thinking that he will not only wipe out pure synthetics but also anyone with implants, like himself. 

Because he is trying to pull a bluff with half truths?

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

I understand this, it's just that it makes no sense whatsoever. If the Catalyst instigated the Crucible to begin with, it's logical that the info/schematics would mention him, but, seeing that the Catalyst is the leader of the Reapers you'd think the ones who left behind the schematics would have left this much more important information on display, yet they seem to imply the Catalyst is the Citadel, but, then they knew the Citadel as the Catalyst but didn't know it was an A.I.

And more importantly, why would the Catalyst instigate a device taht could destroy him and end the cycle? i makes no sense unless he really wants for a singularity to occur.

That Catalyst is a psychopath. It may all be a game to him. If organics reach X level of worthiness, then they can make a new choice!
It remains in control throughout, and determines the destiny of the galaxy right until the end.

I took it as the EMS determining how well you built the crucible, how well you understood it, how many scientists you got for it. etc. I don't think Bioware wanted the smaller fetch quests to have THAT big of an impact on the ending so they included it all in the EMS instead of having a separate indicator for the crucible.

[The Angry One]

Shaoken wrote...

To bring up what we know about previous cycles; the Prothean's war against the Reaper's lasted three centuries.That's why you can't defeat Reaper's conventually; they're entirely self-substatined, they don't get weary from war, thy don't have supply lines, they don't feel fear, and they have all the time in the world. They capture a planet and suddenly they can take your own people and use them against you. They can cut off your supply lines and wait for you to run out of fuel and weapons and food. Meanwhile your economy is collapsing (the game even says that the galatic economy will collapse in one year if the war keeps going), you're losing many ships for every one Reaper ship you do destroy, and even if you defeat all of the Reaper's ground forces in an area, they can just ship some from another world they've conquered while you're stuck with your depleted army (good old Roman tactics).

The war against the Reaper's will always devolve into one of attrition, and the Reaper's seem built specifically to win those kinds of war.

Oh really? 1 capship per cycle. The Reapers can't rebuild what they lose. In a war of attrition, THEY will lose.

[lillitheris]

Why do you believe what the enemy tells you?

Modifié par lillitheris, 16 avril 2012 - 01:33 .

[Eire Icon]

Elyiia wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Which makes no sense if at the end of each cycle the races were leavingbehind things that would help the next. I mean why wouldn't you tell the next cycle how the bloody citidal actually works. 

The Reapers actively wipe out all traces of the previous cycle bar what they want the next cycle to see. This has been explained in ME1

Which explains the Prothean beacons, oh wait.

Extinction IS preferable to what the options are.
We as a species have relied on the relays for transport so we never developed our own technology. If the Yahg survive the cycle, they don't have this handicap. They never relied on the relays so they're forced to make their own technology. The likehood is after the 10,000 years we're told in game we don't have space flight, the Yahg have built an empire and when we show ourselves again, we'll be enslaved or killed.

Sorry I meant to say went about wiping out all traces, they obviously failed in regards to the beacons. But again these messages were sent out by the scientists in Ilos post extinction

Hang on, in the ME universe humanity have only been using the relays for approx, what 30 years or so? I think they can survive without them in the short term.

How exactly do you think we discovered the relays? Spaceships maybe?

The Yahg are not a space faring species, Humanity etc are - They're technology is vastly superior, so i don't get your point

[Funkdrspot]

The Angry One wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

So to you, mass galactic extinction is better than being without the relays. Good to know.

Oh and in case you missed it, there was a thread that talked about travel. It would only take a few years for most races to get back to their homeworlds.

In case YOU missed it, that idea was debunked.

lol no it wasnt. It clearly laid out the time it would take and the current speeds in the ME universe.