276 réponses à ce sujet

[Avissel]

Eire Icon wrote...

Where and how is that suggested?

Because the kid asks when she can go to the stars ?

The enter speech about "whats out there" uses language that suggests the speaker doesn't have a single clue.

"anything you could imagine" Is not the kind of answer you give when you actaully KNOW about alien speices.

"Those stars could have many worlds"  "Each world could have it's own form of life"

Again, "Could" is not the word you use when you actaully KNOW something.

If somebody asked you what it's like in China, even if you had never been there you would not say "There could be people there."

[Eire Icon]

warrior256 wrote...

I just want the ability to tell him that he is wrong when he says that organics and synthetics always fight or that the created will always rebel against the creator. I hate that I am supposed to accept his circular logic as the unquestionable truth.

You don't have to accept his logic is correct, but you do have to accept that it is his logic.

[DJBare]

Funkdrspot wrote...

My thought is that when they release the DLC, the catalyst will talk about countless other galaxies and how the most end up in a termporary peace like with the geth and quarians, only to end up doomed a few millenia later

And yet life still continues in the galaxy, where did it come from?
The catalyst speaks as though "all" organic life is destroyed by synthetics if allowed, if he is speaking from experience then new life must have evolved, so taking that into consideration, I opt we tell the reapers to get the freaking hell out of our galaxy and we take the chance, if organics then become extinct new life will evolve in it's place.

Modifié par DJBare, 16 avril 2012 - 02:34 .

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...
I'll never get tired of repeating it. Tethercat princinple. Going on what information Shepard has, ignoring the Codex (because it's written in-universe, remember? It's data on Reaper tech is less reliable than if Shepard were to doodle them on a used napkin, because throughout ME2 it was convinced as the rest of the Alliance that Sovereign was a Geth ship), you can ONLY infer that the mass relays WILL explode, WILL wipe out galactic life as we know it, and while it WILL end the cycles, it WILL also do the Reaper's work for them. And that's not something my Shepard, or your Shepard, or anyone else's Shepard would ever want.

Well, obviously.
The favourite pro-stargazer argument is "life does go on". So I was answering that in advance. It does go on but in an extremely depressing way. Meaning the scene fails at what it was trying to do, which is be hopeful.

Modifié par a.m.p, 16 avril 2012 - 02:37 .

[Avissel]

Eire Icon wrote...
You don't have to accept his logic is correct, but you do have to accept that it is his logic.

Thats pretty much the major issue alot of people have with the ending. Shepad accepts the Catalyst logic as the truth. He doesn't even argue against the whole "rebellion" thing, only the part about becoming Reapers and then you have to just accept it because the cataylst response is the brilliantly written "No, you cant."

[Eire Icon]

Avissel wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

Where and how is that suggested?

Because the kid asks when she can go to the stars ?

The enter speech about "whats out there" uses language that suggests the speaker doesn't have a single clue.

"anything you could imagine" Is not the kind of answer you give when you actaully KNOW about alien speices.

"Those stars could have many worlds"  "Each world could have it's own form of life"

Again, "Could" is not the word you use when you actaully KNOW something.

If somebody asked you what it's like in China, even if you had never been there you would not say "There could be people there."

Again this is all assumptions. Its a kid he's talking too remember !

He obviously knows about alien species because he's just told her Shepards story (Kind of hard to tell it without mentioning aliens)

[PsyrenY]

Avissel wrote...

Thats pretty much the major issue alot of people have with the ending. Shepad accepts the Catalyst logic as the truth. He doesn't even argue against the whole "rebellion" thing, only the part about becoming Reapers and then you have to just accept it because the cataylst response is the brilliantly written "No, you cant."

You don't have to accept it at all. But what are you going to do, put together a brilliant 12-point essay while the fleet is being decimated out the window?

[Firmijn]

Storm258 wrote...

Firmijn wrote...
Then I call Hackett, and tell them that Adolf Reaper and his "final solutions" are done for

Lol, that gave me an idea, why it would actually be natural for any Shepard or any human in general to doubt/ask Starchild's intentions.

I mean, imagine you could timetravel back to the Second World War and talk to Hitler. He of course would tell you that he is the good guy and he does the right thing, despite most of the world would say he is evil. But sure Hitler himself would tell you that he has good reasons for what he is doing, and from his point of view, that is true. But as most other people see it differently, the conclusion is that Hitler is insane, so you have to fight him, even though he himself doesn't see why he is wrong.

And now you meet Starchild and tells you "I control the Reapers". So the first thing you probably think is: "The one who controls the Reapers is my worst enemy." - Hitler "controled" the ****s (that word gets censored? Alright, then: national socialists ;P), so that's kinda the same here.
So Starchild starts explaining the Reapers' intentions which seem illogical and wrong to you, or at least most of us players. But what does Shepard? He just gives in an doesn't talk back.
That would be like Hitler explaining his reasons of actions to you and you just say: Oh ... didn't see it that way all the time. Guess I'll might just join you now.

That's mostly how it felt for my. Why believe someone and even more or less surrender someone who actually is your worst enemy, when he is the one who controls the Reapers, those guys who killed gazillions of people for such a long time?  -> Lack of logic and Shepard out of character

This is exactly why I made the reference. thanks for noticing

[Noelemahc]

The favourite pro-stargazer argument is "life does go on". So I was answering that in advance. It does go on but in an extremely depressing way. meaning it fails at what it was trying to do, which is be hopeful.

Duh. Life would go on even if Shepard failed. The Yahg are left alone. That planet that burned out all their comms tech and downed all their ship so they could pass as a pre-spaceflight civilization might be left alone. Even space cows are left alone. Seeing how the Salarians evolved from edible lizards into pompous scientists, who know what the cows will evolve into?

You don't have to accept it at all. But what are you going to do, put
together a brilliant 12-point essay while the fleet is being decimated
out the window?

Not necessarily. That thing may or may not control the Reapers. Ascertain that, then draw conclusions. The largest of which should be to ask "Wait, how important are you to the Reaper war effort? Are you EM-shielded? Admiral Hackett, can I get a nuke on my location please?"

Modifié par Noelemahc, 16 avril 2012 - 02:42 .

[Eire Icon]

Avissel wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...
You don't have to accept his logic is correct, but you do have to accept that it is his logic.

Thats pretty much the major issue alot of people have with the ending. Shepad accepts the Catalyst logic as the truth. He doesn't even argue against the whole "rebellion" thing, only the part about becoming Reapers and then you have to just accept it because the cataylst response is the brilliantly written "No, you cant."

He dosen't question Vigil, he dosen't question the beacons, theres allot he dosen't question

He's badly injured, Humanity is on the brink of extinction, and he's given three options. He has nothing to bargain with and he's fresh out of options. Every second he spends questioning the Catalyst people are dying and suffering throughout the Galaxy

Again its only my opinion but my Shepard wasn't hanging around to play 20 questions

[Noelemahc]

Eire Icon wrote...
He dosen't question Vigil, he dosen't question the beacons, theres allot he dosen't question

He's badly injured, Humanity is on the brink of extinction, and he's given three options. He has nothing to bargain with and he's fresh out of options. Every second he spends questioning the Catalyst people are dying and suffering throughout the Galaxy

Again its only my opinion but my Shepard wasn't hanging around to play 20 questions

He questions himself a lot. He questioned Harbinger, and TIM, and Saren, and talked them into motherfrakking suicide. While being badly injured and humanity being on the brink of extinction, BTW. As it stands, he could be waltzing into a case straight out of the Evil Overlord List.
"The largest red button marked "SELF-DESTRUCT" will instead vaporize whoever presses it. The real self-destruct button will be out of the way, pleasantly blue and marked "Paperclip dispenser"."

[Avissel]

Eire Icon wrote...
He dosen't question Vigil, he dosen't question the beacons, theres allot he dosen't question

He's badly injured, Humanity is on the brink of extinction, and he's given three options. He has nothing to bargain with and he's fresh out of options. Every second he spends questioning the Catalyst people are dying and suffering throughout the Galaxy

Again its only my opinion but my Shepard wasn't hanging around to play 20 questions

He doesn't have a reason to question Vigil or the beacons.  It's kind of different when the thing that is responsabile for the murder of (a number higher than I can actaully think of) tells you I DID IT ALL TO SAVE ORGANICS FOR....SOME REASON!

and SHepard reaction is "Seem legit, so what do I do now boss?"

[PsyrenY]

Avissel wrote...

and SHepard reaction is "Seem legit, so what do I do now boss?"

Whether its legit or not is irrelevant. You can argue him until you're blue in the face while your friends die outside, will that make you feel better?

[DJBare]

Eire Icon wrote...
He dosen't question Vigil, he dosen't question the beacons, theres allot he dosen't question

He's badly injured, Humanity is on the brink of extinction, and he's given three options. He has nothing to bargain with and he's fresh out of options. Every second he spends questioning the Catalyst people are dying and suffering throughout the Galaxy

Again its only my opinion but my Shepard wasn't hanging around to play 20 questions

I'll take those 20 questions when I'm having to make a decision for trillions of lives not just those at earth.

[Eire Icon]

Avissel wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...
He dosen't question Vigil, he dosen't question the beacons, theres allot he dosen't question

He's badly injured, Humanity is on the brink of extinction, and he's given three options. He has nothing to bargain with and he's fresh out of options. Every second he spends questioning the Catalyst people are dying and suffering throughout the Galaxy

Again its only my opinion but my Shepard wasn't hanging around to play 20 questions

He doesn't have a reason to question Vigil or the beacons.  It's kind of different when the thing that is responsabile for the murder of (a number higher than I can actaully think of) tells you I DID IT ALL TO SAVE ORGANICS FOR....SOME REASON!

and SHepard reaction is "Seem legit, so what do I do now boss?"

Again Shepard has no other option, whats he supposed to do shoot a holagram? He can either make the choice or allow the Reapers to continue

I mean what is is his other choice? - Say I refuse to choose and sit down and watch humanity get wiped out?

[Eire Icon]

DJBare wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...
He dosen't question Vigil, he dosen't question the beacons, theres allot he dosen't question

He's badly injured, Humanity is on the brink of extinction, and he's given three options. He has nothing to bargain with and he's fresh out of options. Every second he spends questioning the Catalyst people are dying and suffering throughout the Galaxy

Again its only my opinion but my Shepard wasn't hanging around to play 20 questions

I'll take those 20 questions when I'm having to make a decision for trillions of lives not just those at earth.

It wasn't explained well, no question and arguments there from me. I don't like the ending

My point going back to the original post is that refusing to choose is not an option (for me) - It would make the ending worse

I have a ton of questions relating to the ending and logic behind it, but why we cannot refuse to make a decision is not one of them

[Noelemahc]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Whether its legit or not is irrelevant. You can argue him until you're blue in the face while your friends die outside, will that make you feel better?

That's the point. It APPEARS to be willing to listen and explain. However, Shepard is not interested in talking. Even though Talking Is A Free Action in the Mass Effect universe (heck, Planet Scanning Is A Free Action!).

My point going back to the original post is that refusing to choose is not an option (for me) - It would make the ending worse

I
have a ton of questions relating to the ending and logic behind it, but
why we cannot refuse to make a decision is not one of them

Having that option adds at the least one extra ending. The ending we were SUPPOSED TO HAVE, "Reapers Win". Not a frakking game over screen. Arrival had a 'Reapers Win" ending, and it didn't have a genius plotline, for Saren's sake!

Modifié par Noelemahc, 16 avril 2012 - 02:54 .

[Eire Icon]

Noelemahc wrote...

"Wait, how important are you to the Reaper war effort? Are you EM-shielded? Admiral Hackett, can I get a nuke on my location please?"

Your location is the Citadel, with the crucible attached to it

[Jeremy Winston]

Everything, almost, is a free action, except rescuing your crew at the end of ME2.

Admiral Kroliss being in an escape capsule on Rannock? Well, I think I'll just mosey on over to the Citadel to clear a few fetch quests first. Oh, hey.. lemme take care of that N7 mission before I head on back.

And it's so nice how that Hanar waited for me to schedule an appointment to go see him before attempting to release the virus on his own homeworld.

Time generally doesn't pass in the ME universe. Maybe if they flashed a big running hourglass to tell me when it did.

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 16 avril 2012 - 02:58 .

[PsyrenY]

Noelemahc wrote...

That's the point. It APPEARS to be willing to listen and explain. However, Shepard is not interested in talking. Even though Talking Is A Free Action in the Mass Effect universe (heck, Planet Scanning Is A Free Action!).

Talking isn't always free. This time it wasn't.
And when has Shepard ever convinced a Reaper of anything?

Noelemahc wrote...Having that option adds at the least one extra ending. The ending we were SUPPOSED TO HAVE, "Reapers Win". Not a frakking game over screen. Arrival had a 'Reapers Win" ending, and it didn't have a genius plotline, for Saren's sake!

No, Arrival had a cutscene that ended in CMF, not an "ending."

[Avissel]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Whether its legit or not is irrelevant. You can argue him until you're blue in the face while your friends die outside, will that make you feel better?

It's completely Relevant! If his entire process is based on logic and you are able to prove that logic wrong then you should able to do so and have it give some kind of reaction. You do the same thing with Saren and the TIM, but this time your just forced to say "Ok, your right." 

It invalidates the entire point of fighting them if at the end you just accept that they were right the entire time, it could be aruged that it even technically makes Shepard the bad guy, he was risking the entirty of Organic life for the selfish desire to keep humanity around.

Thats my problem with the ending, you can't prove him wrong even though the game gives you all the evidence you would need to do so, in all three choices you just accept that the Reapers were right all along.

[Eire Icon]

Avissel wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Whether its legit or not is irrelevant. You can argue him until you're blue in the face while your friends die outside, will that make you feel better?

Thats my problem with the ending, you can't prove him wrong even though the game gives you all the evidence you would need to do so, in all three choices you just accept that the Reapers were right all along.

um No....... The Reapers were the Catalysts solution, Shepard has now proved to the Catalyst a new solution is needed. If anything he has proved the solution was incorrect

EDIT: Although I must admit the "New Solutions" make no sense to me at all

Modifié par Eire Icon, 16 avril 2012 - 03:07 .

[Jeremy Winston]

Yes.. and the new solutions are also designed by the Catalyst. They are still designed around it's own view of the galaxy, not ours; not Shepard's.

Why can't the Catalyst just send the Reaapers away?

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 16 avril 2012 - 03:08 .

[Eire Icon]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Yes.. and the new solutions are also designed by the Catalyst. They are still designed around it's own view of the galaxy, not ours; not Shepard's.

Why can't the Catalyst just send the Reaapers away?

Well thats the problem for me with the ending. The new solutions to me aren't solutions

The Catalyst says "We need a new solution"

If you destroy the Reapers how is that a solution? yes Syntethics are destroyed, but they can be created again in the future

Is the new solution still to be formulated?

Too many questions

[Avissel]

Eire Icon wrote...
um No....... The Reapers were the Catalysts solution, Shepard has now proved to the Catalyst a new solution is needed. If anything he has proved the solution was incorrect

You proved the solution was wrong, his 3 new solution are still based on solveing the same problem. The Reapers are still right about the situation as a whole, and his entire evidence that the solution won't work is based on his own actions. "Your the first organic here, that proves my solution won't work."

The only reason Shepard even GOT there was because the elevator let him in, and if Shepard being there proves the solution won't work any more, then why does he have the Reapers KEEP KILLING PEOPLE the whole time? If Shepard has to pick the new solution then why does he have the Reapers blow up the crucible if you take too long?
"You have proven us wrong, the solution won't work any more...unless you take longer than 20 minutes, then it will tots still work, also I'm gonna keep killing people the whole time because honesntly it's just kinda funny to me."

There is also the fact that the Reapers then dictate the NEW solutions to you. Not "Well, we were wrong. It's up to you now." but "We were wrong..so heres some fresh new ideas we've got, which one do you like?"