51 réponses à ce sujet

[Darthain]

sparkyclarky24 wrote...

i dont get it when people say the black city only exists because your told it exists... isnt everything related to faith about that? it either exists or it doesnt.. .1 or 0.

they mean it is there because you are told it is there in the chant and whatnot, so when you go there, you see it, as you've been taught about it, no other reason.


I like the Elf theory, very interesting.  But I also agree that Andrastes ashes greatly conflict the no maker argument.  However there is no need for the Maker to be involved at all in the creation of darkspawn regardless of existance.  I was kind of hoping some of the mystery would be dispelled over the course of the game, but it is almost better this way I suppose.

[RVallant]

The big question is if the Maker exists in the fade, his golden city after all, is he not a spirit/demon? What is to say he is exempt from the rules of creation? Did when his city get invaded he not just expelled the mages and created darkspawn but was also tainted within his city? He turns his back on humanity supposedly, by choice? or because he was tainted by his children?



If I recall all demons/spirits have their own 'realm' in the fade no? Demons seem to have an intense annoyance when they are 'ordered' in his name. Is it the same as biblical arguments, for example, demons are fallen from the maker himself. Or just that they're pissed off Mr. Maker guy over there played the smart card and got everyone bowing to him? He never materialises in the real world does he? Would doing so mean he'd have to force through an abdomination/possession i.e. Uldred/Wynne (human form merging/possession seems to be legit from my understanding.)



Then of course, there is always the fact that relgion could simply be used to *ahem* rule over the weak. It's a historical and typical game theme that religion brings about the weak-willed under a belief system to so placate them - is it even a surprise the Tevinters tried to wipe out this new formed chantry? Was it formed to break away from them but simply ended up becoming another system of control?



That's a good thing of DA:O, so many interpretions allowed and why not. As long as none is taken for granted/truth and an open mind is kept (vital in such games because if a sequel contradicts such 'truthful' viewpoint people are reluctant to admit they were wrong - sometimes there doesn't even have to be a sequel before people accept falsities as truth - see Dead Space...) then plenty of fun should be had. =)

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Except we've never seen the Maker, there's no proof of the existance of this nebulous deity and no tangible action of "His" that we can see.

*cough* Andraste Ashes *cough*
Tangible enough for me.

Are not proof of anything unless you assume a great many things and ignore the evidence.
And you know what they say about people who assume.

Open to speculation. If dragons are just dragons, Morrigan wouldn't even bother to trap the soul of a dragon. The High Dragon worshipped by the Andraste cult could be just an ordinary dragon, but the archdemon could be a dragon + soul of old god.

Did you happen to miss the part where dragons are intensely powerful beings, especially the Old Gods who have both power and intelligence?
And I remind you that the fake Andraste, for all it's "normalness", has blood that completely destroys the effect of Andraste's ashes which YOU claim are divine.

Can't have it both ways.

[The Angry One]

RVallant wrote...


The big question is if the Maker exists in the fade, his golden city after all, is he not a spirit/demon? What is to say he is exempt from the rules of creation? Did when his city get invaded he not just expelled the mages and created darkspawn but was also tainted within his city? He turns his back on humanity supposedly, by choice? or because he was tainted by his children?

For all we know the Maker is really one of what the elves thought of as gods.
Or was actually an elf. That'd be some irony. Point is every myth in the game can be deconstructed, why is the Maker exempt?

[izmirtheastarach]

I am going to have to look up the codex entry, but there is an offhand reference to the ritual that the magisters performed which resulted in the blight. As I recall, it required the use of 1 third of the lyrium in the Tevinter Empire and the lives of hundreds of slaves in blood sacrifice. I don't recall I mention of dragons being involved, however.

[The Angry One]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

I am going to have to look up the codex entry, but there is an offhand reference to the ritual that the magisters performed which resulted in the blight. As I recall, it required the use of 1 third of the lyrium in the Tevinter Empire and the lives of hundreds of slaves in blood sacrifice. I don't recall I mention of dragons being involved, however.

That refers to Tevinter's attempts to map the Fade, which turned out to be a futile task as the Fade is always changing.
It mentions nothing about the Blight, though such attempts probably fed the myth.

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...
Are not proof of anything unless you assume a great many things and ignore the evidence.
And you know what they say about people who assume.

You would be the best person to ask because you would be the prime example.

Did you happen to miss the part where dragons are intensely powerful beings, especially the Old Gods who have both power and intelligence?

If the Old Gods are just dragons that have high intelligence, and the Telvinter mistakenly worship them as gods, then what essence is Morrigan trying to capture? 

And I remind you that the fake Andraste, for all it's "normalness", has blood that completely destroys the effect of Andraste's ashes which YOU claim are divine.

Can't have it both ways.

I don't see how it disproves the Maker. Andraste herself could be killed, why would her ashes be exempt?

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...
You would be the best person to ask because you would be the prime example.

Ah, petty flaming. Troll meltdown imminent.

If the Old Gods are just dragons that have high intelligence, and the Telvinter mistakenly worship them as gods, then what essence is Morrigan trying to capture?

Pure, raw power.
Did you miss the whole part about magic existing in DA? The Old Gods are not "gods", but they are terribly powerful, possibly hybrid Fade beings. That is what Tevinter worshipped, and that is what Morrigan wants.

I don't see how it disproves the Maker. Andraste herself could be killed, why would her ashes be exempt?

You claim the ashes' power is that of the Maker, and that the Maker is divine.
Therefore the ashes are divine. How can the mundane blood of a dragon defile that which is divine?
If they are *not* divine, then neither is the Maker. If the Maker is not divine, why call him a god?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The Angry One wrote...

Therefore the ashes are divine. How can the mundane blood of a dragon defile that which is divine?
If they are *not* divine, then neither is the Maker. If the Maker is not divine, why call him a god?

If we take the Chantry's word as gospel, even the sin of man much less the blood of an evil dragon can taint the Maker's divine works. 

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...
Pure, raw power.
Did you miss the whole part about magic existing in DA? The Old Gods are not "gods", but they are terribly powerful, possibly hybrid Fade beings. That is what Tevinter worshipped, and that is what Morrigan wants.

But then why is it said that if the archdemon dies, the "soul of the old god" will transfer to a soulless darkspawn and not be truly dead? And why is it said that if the soul of the old god transfers with a grey warden's soul, both will be destroyed?

I think you're the one missing out on parts of the game. To use your advice, go play the game before you come argue.

[Maria Caliban]

Behindyounow wrote...

I have a theory that the black city is only there, because you're told it should be there.

Except it exists even for PCs that are never told about it.

[originalSabZero]

Maria Caliban: Since the black city is part of the chant, it would be very hard to miss.

[Ulicus]

Currently, I'm of the mind that the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium created the darkspawn to destroy the Dwarven Empire... only, OOPS, their magic control signal - or whatever - got overriden by the (likely unconscious and unintentional) "calling" of the Old Gods and, oh dear, now they're attacking everyone.

Or maybe they were created to cripple Dwarven power AND root out the Old Gods as Tevinter's free labour force? Maybe so the Magisters could do some variant of the 'dark ritual' to acquire that power themselves?

In any case, I don't think it has anything to do with the Maker casting them down and transforming them into monsters in any literal sense. I mean, in the context of the setting I believe in the Maker -- sure -- but I don't think the Chantry know what they're talking about. I see it in much the same way as Leliana does: the Maker reveals Himself in Creation.

(To clarify, I'm not pulling a Spinoza, going all Pantheistic and saying Maker=Creation -- I'm being more influenced by Michel Henry's Christian phenomenology, which is brilliant. I say that despite being an atheist, too)

As for what the Old Gods are, at present think that they ARE incredibly powerful and intelligent dragons. Not, I hasten to add, "just" incredibly powerful and intelligent dragons. To say that they are "just" powerful dragons is to imply that being a powerful, intelligent and likely sapient dragon does not have the same intrinsic value of being an Old God. In my mind, it does.  They are finite beings, certainly, and they're not God... but from a human perspective, they are so powerful and mighty that they are, indeed, gods. It doesn't matter that they don't have a divine rank.

Matthew Stover (awesome author) wrote an essay on the reimagined BattleStar Galactica (now taken down, d'oh!) in which he says words to the effect of: "If you're one of those people who thinks that they're not gods but a hugely advanced society with technology that makes them gods in comparison to us... what's the difference? If they're gods in comparison to us, then they're gods." (Paraphrasing)

I agree with that.

[Taleroth]

corebit wrote...

I am surprised that there seems to be only one version on story of the darkspawn unlike all other legends. It's like everyone reads and repeats from the same pamphlet. No one seems to question the veracity of that story.

It's because the game is very regional.  Any nation with the Chantry is going to follow the same one, generally.  The Tevinter might have an entire other reason for it, of course, and they have a Chantry but still allow magic and blood magic.

The Dwarves never speak of their theory.
The Dalish never speak of theirs, either.

It's more like all the people who read this one pamphlet won't shut up.  While everyone else is hiding their pamphlets.

[EricHVela]

The Maker still lives in the Black City. However, His second great disappointment with His second children has driven Him to bad logic. He feels that He is incapable of creating anything worthy to exist. He originally sent the Magi back as darkspawn to erase His second mistake, but now, He has become the Destroyer and the Black City reflects this. He seeks to undo everything and not just Thedas. He even wants to end His own existence. He seeks oblivion for everything.

The Chant allegory hints at the right course of action to prevent this from happening, but it is still very misleading. Mankind (meaning Dwarves, Elves, Qunari and Humans) must convince the Destroyer that they are worth redeeming, but the Chant claims that Mankind must atone by spreading His word all over Thedas. (Loghain's civil war didn't really impress the Destroyer in the right direction.) In reality, all it would take is for one person to prove that Mankind is redeemable despite the terrible things Mankind can do and has done for the Destroyer to return to the Maker and the City made Golden again.

People still exist despite His awesome power because even He cannot squelch the passion He instilled in His second children. They must lose all hope and be utterly destroyed before he can remove Thedas from the cosmos.

Meh. Good of a story as any I suppose. (No. It's not true. Yes. I made it up.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 07 décembre 2009 - 04:37 .

[TemplarofSteel]

the Arlathan theory could work very well and also having the Maker as a being would also. I do believe that Arlathan might have a connection to the black city, which could be the source of the darkspawn (as by reading the many codexes and Avernus's notes). The Maker, for all we know could be a demon himself (the leader of the Fade). It could comes down to this: the root of the problem is the Black City and could become a final showdown in the future potential sequels.

[BigKevSexyMan]

There's a strong inconsistency with the Black City = Arlathan(sp?) theory, or at least part of it.



Arlathan was sacked long before the mages entered the fade physically, by at least 300 years according to the wiki.



Of course the two could be related in a way, but as for the elves giving an FU to the tevinter by creating the darkspawn, it's extremely unlikely.







One more note, why is it that people seem to want to completely ignore the timing of the darkspawn and tevinter.



Tevinter mages go into the fade physically.

Almost at the exact same time, the first blight occurs.



Yeah, those two monumental happenings can't possibly be related.



Why is everyone so quick to just assume that everything the chantry says is one big lie, when it's really just a perspective on history that actually happened. You can choose not to believe in the maker, but you can't just flat out ignore historical recordings where people were actually around.



Quit trying to impress morrigan by instantly siding against the the chantry people.





Oh, and the maker is a being that could exist outside of the fade, considering that if there was a maker, then he created the fade. You can't exist in something before that something existed.

My guess, if the Maker theory is true, he probably created a whole new realm to exist in.

[TemplarofSteel]

True the Fade could have been created by the Maker. But i am coming to the belief that Arlathan maybe had some knowledge and the Tevinter got a hold of it and put it into practice, it could of took the Tevinter hundreds of years to master what they got a hold of at Arlathan.

[BigKevSexyMan]

I agree with that. We are told that the magisters entered the fade physically and the only magic that exists to do half that job is elven.

[Lord Phoebus]

I actually think Andraste was a powerful pride abomination that created the Darkspawn. There's a book in Orzammar that you can find as a gift for Wynne that suggests that Andraste was a powerful mage. IIRC the survivors of Tevinter converted to the chant, and you never get to hear their version of what created the darkspawn, only the chantry's version. The Elves under Shartan supported Andraste and the Dwarves don't have any surviving records from the time (since they got hit the hardest). From the gauntlet, you know that Andraste used a scorched earth campaign against Tevinter. She starved them out and the darkspawn generally leave scortched earth wherever they pass. You have to figure Andraste didn't just go around torching farmland with her army unopposed by Tevinter, she must have used magical means and the Darkspawn might have been those means. In the deep roads, you also find out that there is a taint (maybe the taint) in the very earth itself. Maybe the darkspawn are the result of herbicidal spell gone wrong?



You can also be pretty sure since everyone who you can talk to about the chantry's Darkspawn creation myth tells you it's the chantry's version and may not be true, that it isn't true. That doesn't mean the chantry is evil, but the chant has about as much to do with Andraste as Christianity has to do with Christ. Niether figure had a hand in writting their teachings, it was their followers who wrote it after their prophet was dead. In the case of Andraste's followers, they killed her.

[Tychoflak]

I just find it fascinating that the game enthrals us enough to have a deep discussion about the merits or lack thereof of a made up religion that has no bearing on our real world whatsoever.

However in the spirit of throwing my two pieces in. I think there are quite a few valid points floating around in this thread, but we also have to remember that the games lore is deliberately obfuscated so as to avoid giving definitives in regards to what is actually going on. Is the Chantry right? Well it's what most people in the game seem to believe, but it is also bogged down by notions of dogma that are a reflection of real world religion. Stories get changed to fit the dogma, so the Chantry is probably not a trustworthy source, even if what they are saying is mostly true.

At the end of the day I honestly don't expect the Devs or the games (lets hope for many sequels) will definitively answer the religious questions. In fact I don't want them to unless it is determined to be the very last game in the series. They have set it up so people can be believers in many different aspects of religion and philosophy. From the Dwarven humanist (Dwarvist?) style of paragon worship, to your classic monotheistic big religion like the Chantry, and the pantheistic lifestyle of the Elves (who the old gods may be in opposition to, or actually represent). I doubt Bioware will want to definitively answer it, and it is refreshing.

How many fantasy style games follow the DnD pattern of having active Gods and Godesses. You know they exist and that divine magic will heal etc, and that yes there is an afterlife.

That is not certain in this game. Just like in real life, people are drawn towards certain faiths and practices. Andraste's ashes do seem to indicate some form of divine power, but as has been said. It is corruptible. The lore in this game is fascinating, but I personally don't really want to subscribe to any notion in this game. It's fun to speculate, because I would think there has to be someone who knows the true history within the development team. However I think that perhaps all the major religions have aspects that are correct, but also wrong at the same time.
It's also pointless to get heated over this particular discussion or indeed fall into believing any theory is correct. By all means have a favourite theory but also realise the Devs can technically just say "The Chantry is right!" (or wrong) and scupper many a theory with their divine canon wielding powers!

We all know who the God/Pantheon of the game is anyway. It's the Bioware dev team, who can reshape the universe as they see fit, by using the method of divine interference called "The Software Patch!"

Modifié par Tychoflak, 08 décembre 2009 - 07:56 .

[Kuravid]

The Angry One wrote...

Original182 wrote...

If it's possible for Old Gods to exist, then it is possible for the Maker to exist.

Except we've never seen the Maker, there's no proof of the existance of this nebulous deity and no tangible action of "His" that we can see.
We know however that Old Gods do exist, they exist even today. They're just not "gods", just powerful dragons.

The Maker seems like the Demiurge, where the Fade seems something like the collective unconscious.

My idea is similar to that of those who posted before me: what exists in the Fade exists solely because you believe/want it to be there.

Modifié par Kuravid, 08 décembre 2009 - 08:37 .

[Kuravid]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

I have a theory that the black city is only there, because you're told it should be there.

Except it exists even for PCs that are never told about it.

But if it's the collective unconscious it's just that...collective. Like how there are archetypes that exist in all of our minds, with different names and variations, surely enough, but it's still there.

[sheogorath66]

It is said that the maker favors Andraste. What if Andraste found out how the elves became immortal. That would tell us why a human would go out of her way to save the elves. What do you guy think?

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Angry One wrote...

Original182 wrote...
*cough* Andraste Ashes *cough*
Tangible enough for me.

Are not proof of anything unless you assume a great many things and ignore the evidence.
And you know what they say about people who assume.

Not a undeniable proof, but a pretty strong hint.

After all, you have the Guardian - a normal human warrior that now has awesome powers, like teleporting. And is apprently hunderds of years old.
Then you have the ashes themselves. The lyrium in the mountains is not a good enough explanation, as you don't see other object that are close to lyrium suddenly become super-magical. Heck, even objects in contact with lyrium don't spontaniusly sprout super.healing properties.
Let's not forget that to cure Earl Eamon, magic was allreay tried.

If there is magic involved in the ashes, then it's the most powerfull magicc anyone in Thedas has ever seen.

And I remind you that the fake Andraste, for all it's "normalness", has blood that completely destroys the effect of Andraste's ashes which YOU claim are divine.

Can't have it both ways.

We know the ashes are "defiled". What effect that has on the ashes, we don't really know. It's not like you have an option to use the defiled ashes on Eamon to see what happens.