56 réponses à ce sujet

[Night Dreams]

I love that they are interweaving the specialisations into the plot again (well at least they are considering it). Even arcane warrior in DAO was cool to unlock. I would love it if they could do things like that for every one, however.
I'm anti-bloodmage, so it makes it even better when they show me that there are real consequences to choosing it. But I also barely ever select it, so I think they need to implement story aspects into every specialisation, so everyone gets the fare deal.
It would be awesome, if say, a spirit healer used their healing abilities on a companion in a cut scene some time, or they mentioned that you had that specialisation if you encountered a wounded person.
Same with warriors, if you have the templar specialisation, should some mages be made somewhat aware of it? Even rogues with say a shadow specialisation could have the ability to work their way around obstacles and foes rather than fighting them.
Not only would this then offer a much more integral use of these specialisations, it would also allow what Bioware are saying is one of their key focuses in the Next Thing - our decisions need to be important again. So couldn't these small decisions be given real and interesting consequences?

[Masked_Jester]

@Night Dreams: I agree on how the smaller decisions should have interesting consequences, like I said before how a blood mage could control the opinion of a npc if chosen to, it should be the same on how a rogue could talk his way out of a mess, and even a warrior can muscle it out through intimidation or being able to be strong enough to move a heavy object that's obstructing a pathway. The little things matter in a roleplaying game.

[Firky]

Dejajeva wrote...

From what I understand each class *possibly* will only get to choose one specialization so they can make that specialization a deeper part of the story and add more reactive events. I think this is a great job, but I would like to see some different specializations- including some of the good ones.

Where is that info from? (Not disputing, just haven't heard that.)

I've always viewed specs as more of a combat thing. Gee blood magic was useful in Origins. And I never actually pictured myself or party *as* blood mages. *whistles innocently*

[Dakota Strider]

If everything ends up being specialized...then really, nothing is special.

What is wrong with going back to older, tried and true systems that worked perfectly well. Why does each chapter in the DA saga, have to come with brand new rules? Go back to the DAO basics, with a few tweeks here and there. Stop trying to invent the wheel. The last wheel they tried to reinvent, seemed to have corners on it.

[Malanek]

There needs to be an option not to specialise without being at a statistical disadvantage. If you don't envisage your mage as a Bloodmage or Spirit Healer it is annoying having to pick one of them to get a bonus.

Edit: Also not sure about picking two specialisations. From an immersion point of view there are some combinations that seem quite silly.

Modifié par Malanek999, 17 avril 2012 - 05:02 .

[slashthedragon]

Dakota Strider wrote...

If everything ends up being specialized...then really, nothing is special.

What is wrong with going back to older, tried and true systems that worked perfectly well. Why does each chapter in the DA saga, have to come with brand new rules? Go back to the DAO basics, with a few tweeks here and there. Stop trying to invent the wheel. The last wheel they tried to reinvent, seemed to have corners on it.

I think this here explains a lot of the problems perceived with DA:2 :
http://gigglesquee.blogspot.com/
WARNING: the language is often not safe for work and not safe for people who really like DA:2
It is *hilarious* though.

[Dejajeva]

Firky wrote...

Dejajeva wrote...

From what I understand each class *possibly* will only get to choose one specialization so they can make that specialization a deeper part of the story and add more reactive events. I think this is a great job, but I would like to see some different specializations- including some of the good ones.

Where is that info from? (Not disputing, just haven't heard that.)

I've always viewed specs as more of a combat thing. Gee blood magic was useful in Origins. And I never actually pictured myself or party *as* blood mages. *whistles innocently*

Sure, if you google PAX east Dragon Age panel, it's in there somewhere. I think that it was actually addressed more during the QA portion of the panel then the actual presentation. If you want me to find it for you, I will.

[Firky]

There was a transcription of the PAX around BSN somewhere... Still looking.

Ohhh, kay. Found it. Thanks.

So, I guess my question is, how is - without thinking tremendously thoroughly, yet - how is the loss I perceive this creating  to combat going to be offset?

Modifié par Firky, 17 avril 2012 - 05:11 .

[Masked_Jester]

Dakota Strider wrote...

If everything ends up being specialized...then really, nothing is special.

What is wrong with going back to older, tried and true systems that worked perfectly well. Why does each chapter in the DA saga, have to come with brand new rules? Go back to the DAO basics, with a few tweeks here and there. Stop trying to invent the wheel. The last wheel they tried to reinvent, seemed to have corners on it.

There were pros and cons to both games with specializations, I think they are trying to find more pros than cons right now (personally I like that you would only be able to choose one special and work with it, it adds depth to roleplaying)

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

So long as the descriptions of the specialisations make sense...

I only just realised how baffling Awakening's Guardian spec was. Spirit Warrior makes almost no sense for a non-mage, and skills like 'Blessing of the Ancestors' is probably not something to be 'learned' if you're not a dwarf (ie. weeks of prolonged exposure to unrefined lyrium).

[Firky]

So, thinking it through slightly more.

If I'm interpreting this correctly, what they mean is that you'd pick a singular spec for your character, which would then fire discrete content in the form of conversation/plot/questing etc? So, if you pick Templar, you might do a small Templar related subquest - if we're lucky - or be unable to pick the blood mage as a romance option? Something like that?

I always more pictured the specs as "fighting styles you learned" so if you picked Templar, it didn't mean you were a Templar, it meant you knew how to fight like one. Or Reaver. Or whatever. (Blood mage being a possible exception, because that is a very important story device too, and I did roll my eyes at some related dissonance with regards blood mages, while still enjoying blood magic in combat.)

I'll agree that Awakening had too many specs, because combat became *way* too easy. But choosing them and mixing them up was still fun.

DA2 did some great things with specs, in my mind. By levels 7 and 14 (?) I was desperate for some new abilities to use and I found choosing between the 3 really meaningful. Then there was Anders' Vengeance tree, for example, which - if you look through his abilities - illustrated his character really cleverly.

I'm not saying that illustrating a singular spec through discrete content is a bad idea. Just that I've always been much more interested in specs as tools in combat. I wonder if each spec could have a more complex tree that branches out into sub-specs. And if "storytelling" within the tree can be preserved, as well. The whole, grander ludonarrative link thing is all good, but it's the small gameplay choices within specs that I (personally) find more interesting.

(PS. Don't worry. I'm sure I'll love DA3. But Firky chose the Grumpy about Games spec long ago.)


Edit: Ninja'd by SoL. Yeah, like that too. Specs making sense, in of themselves.

Modifié par Firky, 17 avril 2012 - 06:29 .

[esper]

I agree with allowing us to pick one spezalisation and then making it a part of the story (of course there need to be more talents in the specialization to do that effectively).

Bloodmage/Templar espcially.

[Anvos]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So long as the descriptions of the specialisations make sense...

I only just realised how baffling Awakening's Guardian spec was. Spirit Warrior makes almost no sense for a non-mage, and skills like 'Blessing of the Ancestors' is probably not something to be 'learned' if you're not a dwarf (ie. weeks of prolonged exposure to unrefined lyrium).

Actually spirit warrior makes a lot of sense and is reinforced by a quest line in DA2 proving that the chantry is wrong about only mages being subject to becoming host to demons or spirits, but rather demons and spirits chose mages over nonmages since they are a path of least resistance due to a mage's hieghtened affinity to the fade. Also I've always taken it that in becoming a spirit warrior tends to more be a process where the person is the one who seeks out the spirit or demon and not the other way around.

Quite honestly spirit warrior would make an excelent specialty in a story about the mage and templar conflict as it raises a lot of questions about the chantry's understanding of magic and the creatures of the fade.

[esper]

Anvos wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So long as the descriptions of the specialisations make sense...

I only just realised how baffling Awakening's Guardian spec was. Spirit Warrior makes almost no sense for a non-mage, and skills like 'Blessing of the Ancestors' is probably not something to be 'learned' if you're not a dwarf (ie. weeks of prolonged exposure to unrefined lyrium).

Actually spirit warrior makes a lot of sense and is reinforced by a quest line in DA2 proving that the chantry is wrong about only mages being subject to becoming host to demons or spirits, but rather demons and spirits chose mages over nonmages since they are a path of least resistance due to a mage's hieghtened affinity to the fade. Also I've always taken it that in becoming a spirit warrior tends to more be a process where the person is the one who seeks out the spirit or demon and not the other way around.

Quite honestly spirit warrior would make an excelent specialty in a story about the mage and templar conflict as it raises a lot of questions about the chantry's understanding of magic and the creatures of the fade.

I agree espically if we go to Then we need something spirit/rouge pact too.. But if specialisation become part of the story it would be an interesting insight..

and have assassin works like it did in da:O (I don't know how it works in da2), the whole kill your enemy = gain health was supicously blood-magic like and a good comparison to Reaver/blood mage.

I also wants to have a quest at level 7 (or perhaps 9, if we only get one spec). It would be nice if we do something to be specialized and have quest that unlocks when we reach the level to get spec. Not like in da:o where once unlocked it was eternally unlocked for all characthers and also not such that we have to go to area x first in order to unlock the specalization and risk going there so late that it would be in vain.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Anvos wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

So long as the descriptions of the specialisations make sense...

I only just realised how baffling Awakening's Guardian spec was. Spirit Warrior makes almost no sense for a non-mage, and skills like 'Blessing of the Ancestors' is probably not something to be 'learned' if you're not a dwarf (ie. weeks of prolonged exposure to unrefined lyrium).

Actually spirit warrior makes a lot of sense and is reinforced by a quest line in DA2 proving that the chantry is wrong about only mages being subject to becoming host to demons or spirits, but rather demons and spirits chose mages over nonmages since they are a path of least resistance due to a mage's hieghtened affinity to the fade. Also I've always taken it that in becoming a spirit warrior tends to more be a process where the person is the one who seeks out the spirit or demon and not the other way around.

The problem I find with the concept of a Spirit Warrior is that mundanes and Tranquil are supposed to be invisible to demons and spirits, except under special circumstances. I agree that a mundane could seek a spirit out (events in Asunder prove this is possible for demons at least), but they have to know how. Additionally, there's the difficulty of spirits being notoriously elusive, as unlike demons spirits do not normally involve themselves with mortals, mage or otherwise.

The second problem I have with the spec is that a Spirit Warrior can apparently summon the power of the spirits whenever they please, wherever they please, but lore specifies it's not that simple for a mundane to achieve due to their 'invisibility'. Either they have something that makes them more connected to the Fade than most mundanes, enabling them to commune with spirits at will despite them being rare, or there is a pact involved. And a pact implies symbiosis with/possession by a spirit, which kinda goes against the spec description: the warrior merely 'flirts' with spirits.

It's an interesting concept, I just don't think it works with the lore unless possession or a foreign substance like lyrium is involved. To me it came across as an attempt to make warriors more magical, like Guardian was (and Fenris is), but not thought all the way through.

Quite honestly spirit warrior would make an excelent specialty in a story about the mage and templar conflict as it raises a lot of questions about the chantry's understanding of magic and the creatures of the fade.

I think the upper echelons of the Chantry know more than they pass on. It's the old question of whether it's a good idea to inform people about horrible things so they can defend themselves against them, or conceal it to prevent the wrong person from learning those horrible things and trying them out.

Take the Band of Three. They went to great lengths learning the secret histories of Kirkwall and wanting to know the truth, to discovering it's something so sinister and foul that they believed the secrets should be utterly destroyed.

But where Spirit Warriors are concerned, a character where a spirit was is symbiosis with a mundane might be interesting. OTOH, after DA2 I think I've had enough of spirit/demon-possessed people for a while. XD

esper wrote...

and have assassin works like it did in da:O (I don't know how it works in da2), the whole kill your enemy = gain health was supicously blood-magic like and a good comparison to Reaver/blood mage.

Morrigan has dialogue that implies Assassin and Reaver specs share similarities with blood magic, and some of the descriptions of the skills support this. [edit] Zevran will also say at an altar in Haven that assassins, specifically the Crows, have blood rituals. [/edit] It definitely looks possible for mundanes to summon the support of demons through blood rites and such. Perhaps it is a unique power of blood, anyone's blood...we do know that a large amount of bloodshed can damage and rip the Veil. A small amount could have its own more personal uses...

How, though, does a mundane spontaneously attract a Fade-bound spirit? They have never been associated with blood magic that we know of.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 17 avril 2012 - 10:07 .

[Pzykozis]

Hmm, isn't Fenris a spirit warrior? He talks about how his abilities aren't completely down to his markings and that people like him are rare?

Random folks born with a bit of an affinity with the fade seems to be all thats required rather than a contract with a spirit a la spirit healer.

I'd also like to see more specialisation options and having each specialisation have more impact on the way the character plays outside of the story considerations. Certain weapon styles or fighting styles (hand to hand go go go) being available via specialisation would be pretty awesome, a battle mage that can use dual wielding or something.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 17 avril 2012 - 10:49 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Pzykozis wrote...

Hmm, isn't Fenris a spirit warrior? He talks about how his abilities aren't completely down to his markings and that people like him are rare?

He says warriors such as himself are rare, but I don't recall him saying his abilities come from more than his brands. I always supposed his rarity comes down to the lyrium branding process being both expensive and incredibly painful. Fenris had to compete with other slaves to win his place, and to me that reeked of Denarius making sure he went with the strongest candidate. I wouldn't be surprised if a weaker slave was killed by the trauma.

It's also possible that Fenris's kind is rare because the lyrium branding process is new and experimental. Probably needs some fine-tuning; considering how many of his abilities grant magic resistance, I can't see a great many mages desiring a slave who could turn on them, repel their magic, then rip their spleens out.

[nightcobra]

 had an idea for the spirit warrior for DA2 might as well post again for DA3.

i'd love if the "possession" aesthetic could be upped a notch. imagine the spirit hovering over your character's back kind like this and have that form as a sustainable ability with the following perks and disadvantages:

weapon's reach is increased due to spirit magic coating it.
spirit hovering over you also attacks the enemy.
spirit can fire long range spirit spells against foes
stamina is gradually decreased when this ability is activated, if you run out of stamina it starts to decrease health as well due to the dangers of losing one self during possession.

meeting, beating and subjugating a warrior spirit in the fade could serve as its quest (remember the spirit of valor in the mage's origin? kinda like that)

[Corker]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Pzykozis wrote...

Hmm, isn't Fenris a spirit warrior? He talks about how his abilities aren't completely down to his markings and that people like him are rare?

It's also possible that Fenris's kind is rare because the lyrium branding process is new and experimental. Probably needs some fine-tuning; considering how many of his abilities grant magic resistance, I can't see a great many mages desiring a slave who could turn on them, repel their magic, then rip their spleens out.

FWIW, I like to think Fenris is an mad-science attempt to create an arcane warrior from a mundane person.  Perhaps the Tevinter have records of elven arcane warriors existing, and know what they should be able to do, but they're getting the reverse engineering all wrong.  Instead of making a mage into a warrior, they're trying to turn a warrior into a magically-enhanced juggernaut who exists half in the Fade.  Since lyrium manages to be both in Thedas and in the Fade simultaneously, it makes sense that you'd have to use it to give that ability to someone else.

The abilities don't map one-to-one, but there's a lot of similarities.  Particularly, Fade Shroud looks a whole lot like Fenris's cinematic phasing ability.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

IIRC demons and spirits have their magical powers 'dampened' if their host is not a mage. They require a link to the Fade for their magic to function. Remember that when Justice possessed the corpse of Kristoff he had none of his spirit magic --and he was a spirit in full control of his host.

[nightcobra]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

IIRC demons and spirits have their magical powers 'dampened' if their host is not a mage. They require a link to the Fade for their magic to function. Remember that when Justice possessed the corpse of Kristoff he had none of his spirit magic --and he was a spirit in full control of his host.

i had an idea for the spirit warrior thing to work too but it's more of wishful thinking than anything else


about DA3's main character origin:

let's see if i can explain myself clearly... fenris for example, his lyrium marks were basically what enabled magic use in him. now consider this...it could be possible for something similar to happen to your character.
in DA1 you went through the joining to become a grey warden, what if at the end of DA3's prologue you undergo a experiment/ritual or something that makes you a mana battery much like how gems could make shale one.
this is just an idea however so i don't expect bioware to actually go through with something like this. 

also, we know that the chantry uses lyrium to make templars, templars use a kind of magic to combat mages that much we already know.
how about if the chantry is trying to come up with the next iteration of templar due to the now total war between mages/templars and you're kidnapped and used as a lab rat.
would you still forgive the ones who did this to you (if the ones responsible only did this to protect the people from what they think is the menace of mages) or would you rebel agaisnt them and join the mages cause, or do you use these new found powers for your personal gain, or even yet do you refuse to use them if you find the notion of magic abhorrent?

just a few things out the top of my head.  

like i said some people won't like due to this making the PC a "special snowflake" but i kinda like these kind of characters like i like the grey wardens, spirit monks, etc.
also in my theory it's possible you wouldn't be the only one, just one of the first[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie] 


gameplay wise - basically a reversed funnel type of class choice for the player character (has magic potential but can choose to train as a warrior or rogue while supressing the innate magic talent or using it to improve the other 2 classes or maybe just concentrating on the mage aspect. the party members would be one of the 3 classes like in previous DA games.

imagine kingdom's of amalur leveling system and you get pretty much the gist of what i'm talking about.
you could pick abilities from the 3 trees (warrior/rogue/mage) and depending on how much points you put into the trees you could then select a specialization tree:

true warrior 
true mage
true rogue
warrior/rogue hybrid
warrior/mage hybrid
mage/rogue hybrid
jack of all trades 

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 17 avril 2012 - 01:04 .

[Corker]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

IIRC demons and spirits have their magical powers 'dampened' if their host is not a mage. They require a link to the Fade for their magic to function. Remember that when Justice possessed the corpse of Kristoff he had none of his spirit magic --and he was a spirit in full control of his host.

It would have been interesting to see how Tarhone's plans to infect templars with demons would have played out.  We only got to see Wilmod go from zero to abomination.  I wonder if more subtle effects would have been possible?

(Although it's probably not fair to compare the effects that mighty deep Fade entities like Gaxkang the Unbound and Xebenkeck can achieve to what your garden-variety demons can do.  And assuming we can take the Fell Grimoire quests in DA2 Act 2 at face value, Tarhone was drawing her rites and powers from Xebenkeck.)

[benlg]

I kinda want arcane warrior back from DA:O for my mage.

[esper]

Corker wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

IIRC demons and spirits have their magical powers 'dampened' if their host is not a mage. They require a link to the Fade for their magic to function. Remember that when Justice possessed the corpse of Kristoff he had none of his spirit magic --and he was a spirit in full control of his host.

It would have been interesting to see how Tarhone's plans to infect templars with demons would have played out.  We only got to see Wilmod go from zero to abomination.  I wonder if more subtle effects would have been possible?

(Although it's probably not fair to compare the effects that mighty deep Fade entities like Gaxkang the Unbound and Xebenkeck can achieve to what your garden-variety demons can do.  And assuming we can take the Fell Grimoire quests in DA2 Act 2 at face value, Tarhone was drawing her rites and powers from Xebenkeck.)

Personally I think that aborminations (the twisted monster version) are the possession were both host and fade being mind are messed up. That makes sense since Justice was in a dead body (full power to him). So you would 'just' have to find a fade being (demon/spirit/those we don't know what are) strong enough.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Corker wrote...

FWIW, I like to think Fenris is an mad-science attempt to create an arcane warrior from a mundane person.  Perhaps the Tevinter have records of elven arcane warriors existing, and know what they should be able to do, but they're getting the reverse engineering all wrong.  Instead of making a mage into a warrior, they're trying to turn a warrior into a magically-enhanced juggernaut who exists half in the Fade.  Since lyrium manages to be both in Thedas and in the Fade simultaneously, it makes sense that you'd have to use it to give that ability to someone else.

The abilities don't map one-to-one, but there's a lot of similarities.  Particularly, Fade Shroud looks a whole lot like Fenris's cinematic phasing ability.

Yeah, there are definitely similarities in the mechanics.

Danarius appeared to have had a purpose for Fenris, or so he hinted in Act III, but naturally we got nothing solid. A magical warrior feels too easy as a sole purpose, even if it's nice to have an uber-bodyguard serving your associates wine.

Maybe we'll find out. Maybe not. :/