344 réponses à ce sujet

[Foxhound2121]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

What the writers create as character dispositions and roles in a series are not forced, and pretending like it's forced on anyone is entirely untrue. It's part of the story. In hindsight, complaining about such things is just thinly veiled envy. Some characters are going to get more attention than others and are going to have more significant roles. That is a fact.

Kelly Chambers forces herself on Shepard as well, but that is part of her character and the story, not some over-arching scheme of being forced on players. She also doesn't have much content as a romance option, that doesn't mean that players are forced not to romance her. That just means she is less significant to the story in most areas.

It would be just as silly to be envious that Miranda doesn't have content in Mass Effect 1. Of course she doesn't since she wouldn't really exist in the overall plot. That doesn't give anyone a legitimate argument to say that other romances are forced on them. Having a circular argument that romances are forced because of character role reasons and content reasons is illegitimate.

True, but since ME are supposed to be RPG's then you should be able to act as you wish towards certain characters, even plot important ones.

However with Kelly you can be extremely rude to her; My renegade Femshep was, yet she wasn't allowed to be rude to Liara in ME2 or ME3 since, lol and behold, Liara is secretely her awesome best friend. That Femshep was a xenophobe; she never would have touched Liara, must less given her a bro hug in ME2.

True. However I think most people have beef with the fact their control over Shepard is taken away in ME3, especially towards the interactions with people. But Liara was lasvished on, and though I like her character, with some Shepard's they would have told Liara to go way or stop acting so buddy-buddy with them.

That is an entirely different beast that you're complaining about altogether. There are less dialogue options in ME3 and it really kills the immersion and options to continue the roles from the previous games, but that doesn't really give you a forced romance.

Regarding ME2, you are very capable of being rude to Liara. The DLC is just extra content that isn't necessary for the rest of the game. However, the fact that Liara is not part of the main game as a party member means that she can't be part of the suicide mission. Not being part of the suicide mission was likely the reason why they decided to make her such a significant role in ME3 since it guarantees an available slot for the role. The former is not a positive thing for anyone that likes her while the latter is a necessity.

Saying that necessity is forced is irrelevant and invalid. Of course it is forced because they wouldn't be able to make a game after a suicide mission without it.

All enduring, anyone could turn around and say Miranda romance is obviously forced on us during ME2 since Liara and Ashley are not squadmate options. Miranda, Tali, Jacob, and even Kelly Chamber's romance scenes are much more risque than Liara's in ME2. If anything the trilogy is extremely balanced for what is made up in ME3 and the grumbling is just thinly veiled envy.

To attribute anything to Liara, I would probably say that it is a combination of resources of dialogue, suicide mission mechanics, plot roles, and bugs that give you what people claim is a forced romance, but it is not. Just need a finger to point.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 20 avril 2012 - 08:12 .

[PsychoMMantis]

Not true at all.

[kumquats]

J.C. Blade wrote...
Just so we're clear, I meant fans as in this large clamor of voices on the forums that appears like a cloud whenever someone looks the wrong way in Liara's direction.

Comments like, "You have to be dead on the inside not to like Liara", "Liara went through hell to get Sheaprd back so she some gratitude", "Of course even your Shepard likes Liara after everything she had done for him", "I'm sad tha tother LIs got shafted but you know, Liara is a canon romance anyway so it doesn't matter that much"... You know, little things like that, where somehow personal preference for characters and the ability to roleplay went straight out the window when it came to her.

Yeah, but then this isn't an UO Freeshard and you are not a hardcore Roleplayer.
You play SHEPARD, BW gives you a way you can follow the story, with certain freedoms how you want to experience his/her story.
But you can't Roleplay everything you want. Mass Effect is to heavily scripted. (ME2 plot as an example)
Frankly, I thought it was interesting to play Wrex as my enemy and becoming distant and cold with Joker. I didn't enjoy it, but the option was very interesting.

And of course you always have to consider the worst possible scenario. Vega, EDI and Liara, have to have the center stage, above all the others. Some of us use the option to kill everyone, some of us use the option to not be the Hero. And the game still has to be enjoyable and playable.

Don't let other people tell you how you should feel about a character. If you don't like Liara, don't like her. Simple as that.
So the other option was Vega and EDI, being your friend and asking Shepard to talk about his/her feelings.

Personaly I would have left it open, to let people have some heart to heart talks with Vega or EDI, if they want.

Modifié par kumquats, 20 avril 2012 - 08:15 .

[Foxhound2121]

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

I just hate how she NEVER TAKES NO FOR A DAMN ANSWER.
That is all.

In all three parts of the trilogy, what romance option ever took no for an answer?

Every time you have the chance to either cheat or change your romance, and therefore, you also have to rekindle a pre-existing romance. So ya, the options is going to be there every time. Those are game mechanics. There is always the option of not delving that deep into the conversation at all they way you would if your avoiding a gay romance. Dialogue options were completely butchered in ME3. It is what it is.

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Really now? Is that why Shepard can
- refuse to give Tali the data for her Pilgrimage in ME1?
- hand Veetor to Cerberus?
- reveal the evidence at her trial?
- kill her off in the Suicide Mission?
- condemn her entire race to destruction, driving her to suicide? (meanwhile Shepard is forced to be upset about Thessia)

I don't think any of those are things you would do to your "kid sis".
Then again, I wouldn't have a sexual relationship with my sister either,
and my Shepard did with Tali, so obviously I must have a
misunderstanding of what exactly that type of relationship is.

Meanwhile back in reality, Liara is not even in ME2 main game or as a perma squadmate. Did you expect them to just not make up for it? It sounds like you're upset that people were even allowed to have Liara in ME3. People perceive themselves as lacking, so they wish others be deprived of it altogether.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 20 avril 2012 - 09:04 .

[Swimming Ferret]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...


True, but since ME are supposed to be RPG's then you should be able to act as you wish towards certain characters, even plot important ones.

However with Kelly you can be extremely rude to her; My renegade Femshep was, yet she wasn't allowed to be rude to Liara in ME2 or ME3 since, lol and behold, Liara is secretely her awesome best friend. That Femshep was a xenophobe; she never would have touched Liara, must less given her a bro hug in ME2.

True. However I think most people have beef with the fact their control over Shepard is taken away in ME3, especially towards the interactions with people. But Liara was lasvished on, and though I like her character, with some Shepard's they would have told Liara to go way or stop acting so buddy-buddy with them.

That is an entirely different beast that you're complaining about altogether. There are less dialogue options in ME3 and it really kills the immersion and options to continue the roles from the previous games, but that doesn't really give you a forced romance.

Regarding ME2, you are very capable of being rude to Liara. The DLC is just extra content that isn't necessary for the rest of the game. However, the fact that Liara is not part of the main game as a party member means that she can't be part of the suicide mission. Not being part of the suicide mission was likely the reason why they decided to make her such a significant role in ME3 since it guarantees an available slot for the role. The former is not a positive thing for anyone that likes her while the latter is a necessity.

Saying that necessity is forced is irrelevant and invalid. Of course it is forced because they wouldn't be able to make a game after a suicide mission without it.

All enduring, anyone could turn around and say Miranda romance is obviously forced on us during ME2 since Liara and Ashley are not squadmate options. Miranda, Tali, Jacob, and even Kelly Chamber's romance scenes are much more risque than Liara's in ME2. If anything the trilogy is extremely balanced for what is made up in ME3 and the grumbling is just thinly veiled envy.

To attribute anything to Liara, I would probably say that it is a combination of resources of dialogue, suicide mission mechanics, plot roles, and bugs that give you what people claim is a forced romance, but it is not. Just need a finger to point.

But it does mean you can't make Liara go away; that seems to be the main problem. Not the romance bit, but the fact you can't make Liara not your BFF in ME3. Some people don't like her, yet she keeps on coming into your cabin without permission and Shepard is all "Oh hai! " when they see her.

Yet you still hug her the moment you see her. You can't do anything else, even if your Shepard is a xenophobe. So it may be because she's needed to give you the Cruicible plans, but really, you should be able to tell her to go away and do Shadow Broker things. Oh no wait, she was stupid enough to get tracked down and crashed his ship...

...How is Miranda forced? She doesn't show up in your cabin all the time and act like your best bro. She's fairly icy at the best when you speak to her in her own rooms.

My main complaint isn't with Liara's romance, it's with her best bro role in ME3 and how you can't tell her to ****** off.

[Foxhound2121]

Swimming Ferret wrote...


But it does mean you can't make Liara go away; that seems to be the main problem. Not the romance bit, but the fact you can't make Liara not your BFF in ME3. Some people don't like her, yet she keeps on coming into your cabin without permission and Shepard is all "Oh hai! " when they see her.

Yet you still hug her the moment you see her. You can't do anything else, even if your Shepard is a xenophobe. So it may be because she's needed to give you the Cruicible plans, but really, you should be able to tell her to go away and do Shadow Broker things. Oh no wait, she was stupid enough to get tracked down and crashed his ship...

...How is Miranda forced? She doesn't show up in your cabin all the time and act like your best bro. She's fairly icy at the best when you speak to her in her own rooms.

My main complaint isn't with Liara's romance, it's with her best bro role in ME3 and how you can't tell her to ****** off.

Liara wasn't in ME2 main game. Therefore, it is obvious that she is going to play an important role for many reasons including suicide mission mechanics and for people who actually liked her other than you.

Everyone already knows about the mess Bioware was having with resources on dialogue options. It was so bad the renegade and paragon completely merge at many points and act out of character. Renegade shepard is saluting left and right and dialogue options are nonexistant. That complaint is unfitting. You can't turn that around and say Liara should have had a smaller role.

Me saying Miranda is forced is just a parody of how rediculous the thread is. I mean, she obviously has a better sex scene in ME2 where Liara's just fades to black. She must have been forced in ME2.

A common example of what people say to claim favoritism towards Liara because her sex scene is better in ME3.

Modifié par Foxhound2121, 20 avril 2012 - 09:51 .

[Neria Rose]

Han Shot First wrote...

Nevertheless it is faulty logic to claim that the character isn't responsible for bringing Shepard back from the dead because the writers, with the absolute power of creators of the Mass Effect universe, could have written written even Conrad Verner or the Biotic God into that role.  That is like arguing that Han Solo saving Luke Skywalker at the end of A New Hope was no big deal, because Lucas, as creator, could have replaced Han with Jar Jar Binks.

What the writers could have done out-of-universe has no bearing on what happens in universe.

We're about to go in circles. My point is not that she didn't play a part in bringing Shepard back but that she is unnecessary for the role. According to ME2, she did. It happened, whatever. But she did not have to be the one. And the hypersensitive Liara fans who always bring up the 'omgz but she saved u!1!!1!' thing when coming to her defense and stating people should like her for it are talking out of their asses since it could have been anyone else.

I've mentioned it before. I'm still waiting for one of said fans to prove that no other character (previously introduced or new) could have retrieved Shepard's body. And that's not going to happen because, as you've stated above, the writers have the final say and could have had Shepard saved by something or someone else entirely.

And before they come in with their usual "but Garrus this and Tali that", never have I argued that any character was necessary for any particular role. Nor have I argued that any character, Garrus included, should be required to be Shepard's friend. Furthermore, you can completely avoid Garrus in ME1 and kill him and Tali in ME2, so arguing about their relationships with Shepard holds no water.

[J.C. Blade]

kumquats wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...
Just so we're clear, I meant fans as in this large clamor of voices on the forums that appears like a cloud whenever someone looks the wrong way in Liara's direction.

Comments like, "You have to be dead on the inside not to like Liara", "Liara went through hell to get Sheaprd back so she some gratitude", "Of course even your Shepard likes Liara after everything she had done for him", "I'm sad tha tother LIs got shafted but you know, Liara is a canon romance anyway so it doesn't matter that much"... You know, little things like that, where somehow personal preference for characters and the ability to roleplay went straight out the window when it came to her.

Yeah, but then this isn't an UO Freeshard and you are not a hardcore Roleplayer.
You play SHEPARD, BW gives you a way you can follow the story, with certain freedoms how you want to experience his/her story.
But you can't Roleplay everything you want. Mass Effect is to heavily scripted. (ME2 plot as an example)
Frankly, I thought it was interesting to play Wrex as my enemy and becoming distant and cold with Joker. I didn't enjoy it, but the option was very interesting.

And of course you always have to consider the worst possible scenario. Vega, EDI and Liara, have to have the center stage, above all the others. Some of us use the option to kill everyone, some of us use the option to not be the Hero. And the game still has to be enjoyable and playable.

Don't let other people tell you how you should feel about a character. If you don't like Liara, don't like her. Simple as that.
So the other option was Vega and EDI, being your friend and asking Shepard to talk about his/her feelings.

Personaly I would have left it open, to let people have some heart to heart talks with Vega or EDI, if they want.

I could roleplay a lot in ME1 - I could be nice, professional or rude. ME2 took that freedom away. ME3 nuked it out of orbit. ME1 Allowed me to shape and play MY Shepard. The following games forced Bioware's default Shepard, and I regret paying any money for that.

All I want from this roleplaying game is to be able to roleplay Shepard who doesn't feel any kind of closeness to Liara and be able to tell her to GO AWAY; just as the game already allows for me to roleplay "best friends with Liara" Shepard.

[kumquats]

J.C. Blade wrote...
I could roleplay a lot in ME1 - I could be nice, professional or rude. ME2 took that freedom away. ME3 nuked it out of orbit. ME1 Allowed me to shape and play MY Shepard. The following games forced Bioware's default Shepard, and I regret paying any money for that.

All I want from this roleplaying game is to be able to roleplay Shepard who doesn't feel any kind of closeness to Liara and be able to tell her to GO AWAY; just as the game already allows for me to roleplay "best friends with Liara" Shepard.

I think the problem is, that Mass Effect is a trilogy. Okay you have all the freedom in the world in the first game.
But as you write and the Story gets different for every player. As much freedom you have to take away in the next game. Like I said in ME2, I bet a lot of people didn't want to work with Cerberus. <- It's canon, or how you see it, it's a forced plot.

I think being able to import so many choices, was a big mistake in this trilogy. ME3 had to be scripted a lot, so it can work, even in a worst case scenario.
You know, when you only save the galaxy with Vega, Liara and EDI.

[leeboi2]

I have good memories about the last time she put pressure on me...

[Wise Men]

nocbl2 wrote...

Stormer90 wrote...

It was kinda weird during that abrupt goodbye with her in the end when she takes you on a vision quest with her on your shoulder.

I think that was to show that no matter what, she always loved you. Even if you chose someone other than her, Liara literally brought you from the dead. I mean, if she wasn't completely infatuated, then I have no clue what else she might have been.

I romanced Ashley.  But, this scene was a beautiful moment for me.  For me, Liara had become a true friend to my Shep.  I decided that we had established a strong connection from the events of ME1 (her "mind-bonding" with me).  Besides Garrus, she was the one friend that I could depend on unconditionally.  As we stood there, holding hands...and her head on my sholder...I got a little choked up.

[J.C. Blade]

kumquats wrote...

J.C. Blade wrote...
I could roleplay a lot in ME1 - I could be nice, professional or rude. ME2 took that freedom away. ME3 nuked it out of orbit. ME1 Allowed me to shape and play MY Shepard. The following games forced Bioware's default Shepard, and I regret paying any money for that.

All I want from this roleplaying game is to be able to roleplay Shepard who doesn't feel any kind of closeness to Liara and be able to tell her to GO AWAY; just as the game already allows for me to roleplay "best friends with Liara" Shepard.

I think the problem is, that Mass Effect is a trilogy. Okay you have all the freedom in the world in the first game.
But as you write and the Story gets different for every player. As much freedom you have to take away in the next game. Like I said in ME2, I bet a lot of people didn't want to work with Cerberus. <- It's canon, or how you see it, it's a forced plot.

I think being able to import so many choices, was a big mistake in this trilogy. ME3 had to be scripted a lot, so it can work, even in a worst case scenario.
You know, when you only save the galaxy with Vega, Liara and EDI.

Then they should have thought two, three, a gazillion times before even attempting it first time around. Mass Effect is not the Witcher, Shepard is not Geralt with 7 books defining her character and personality before she even took a single step towards a game. The player shaped Shepard - Shepard was what the player made of her.

If ME1 allowed for nice, professional and rude Shepard to exist then the next two games should have followed that pattern. To say "It's difficult to make a sequel with so many possibilities and different Shepard-s so we're only going to stick to the 'nice' one", is an abhorrently cowardly move on Bioware's part and it is not that game I paid for or would even want to play. Either they should have stuck to their guns or let the ME franchise die and make something Uncharted-like where they wouldn't have to worry about a trivial thing like "choices".

So yes, I do think that Liara is forced on the player in so far that Bioware desperately needed someone to be close to Shepard so they could play with all the emotions they wanted Shepard to feel in all those unnecessary cinematics, roleplay be damned. And since Liara is the only one who can't die, is romancible by both male and female Shepard, and is the most lavished character of Bioware's ME franchise, it's only logical that she gets the part.

[kumquats]

J.C. Blade wrote...
So yes, I do think that Liara is forced on the player in so far that Bioware desperately needed someone to be close to Shepard so they could play with all the emotions they wanted Shepard to feel in all those unnecessary cinematics, roleplay be damned. And since Liara is the only one who can't die, is romancible by both male and female Shepard, and is the most lavished character of Bioware's ME franchise, it's only logical that she gets the part.

Yeah they had to. That's what happens, if you have too many options in the previouse games.
The whole savegame import thing is just not working in my opinion. Too difficult and too complex.
Or they just should change it, like giving the player fewer options in the first game and then make it more complex as the trilogy progresses. That would have been much easier.

I wouldn't trade the trilogy for anything and I'm glad they made it. If you think that they could have foreseen everything of those problems. I can't agree with that.
I think there is a huge difference with what works in the DEVs head and how it actually works in the game.

Theory and Practice are mortal enemies. Look at Assassins Creed Brotherhood, the whole thing with having your own Assassins and making money, was a great idea in Theory. And in Practice it completely destroyed the game balance.

[LelianaHawke]

ME3 does force Liara onto you. If you romance anyone bar Liara, Kaiden, or Ashley, the final romance flashback as you make your crucible choice is... Liara.

People had to mod this out.

I definitely didn't appreciate my Kellymancer thinking of Liara in what were possibly her final moments.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 20 avril 2012 - 05:26 .

[kookie28]

The problem isn't that she's "forced" onto you so much, it's that it's very obvious Bioware spent more time on her than other characters. The flashback is an excellent example.

But I can see why someone would feel that way.  I had one conversation with her in ME1 and apparently we're best friends in ME3.  Not only is she a bore to talk to, but she's also a creeper.

Modifié par kookie28, 20 avril 2012 - 05:37 .

[mireisen]

LelianaHawke wrote...

ME3 does force Liara onto you. If you romance anyone bar Liara, Kaiden, or Ashley, the final romance flashback as you make your crucible choice is... Liara.

People had to mod this out.

I was very puzzled at this, with my FemShep's LI being blown out of the water. This is one of the reasons why I felt she was forced on Shepard. I mean, I enjoyed the time capsule scene, but I really don't think Liara would've been the last person she thought about; esp. after the goobyes Garrus gave her.

[VA_FyreHeart]

wastelander75 wrote...

I never really felt comfortable trying to romance Liara since, by asari standards, she's not very old and well, doubtful she'd be um...legal.

[polor89]

mireisen wrote...

LelianaHawke wrote...

ME3 does force Liara onto you. If you romance anyone bar Liara, Kaiden, or Ashley, the final romance flashback as you make your crucible choice is... Liara.

People had to mod this out.

I was very puzzled at this, with my FemShep's LI being blown out of the water. This is one of the reasons why I felt she was forced on Shepard. I mean, I enjoyed the time capsule scene, but I really don't think Liara would've been the last person she thought about; esp. after the goobyes Garrus gave her.

Actually the developers have stated that there are only 3 options for the "FINAL" thought of shepard, the only romance thoughts are (Kaidan-Ashley-Liara) probably because it was difficult ..so many romances.so its not as they want to push liara to you .lol i see in this thread you all love to bash liara:devil:

And about how much time she has on the game well she wasnt almost AT ALL in ME2 unlike garrus or tali although they make it up for this with the shadow broker dlc

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

polor89 wrote...


Actually the developers have stated that there are only 3 options for the "FINAL" thought of shepard, the only romance thoughts are (Kaidan-Ashley-Liara) probably because it was difficult ..so many romances.so its not as they want to push liara to you .lol i see in this thread you all love to bash liara:devil:

Too difficult? They were a bunch of 3-second clips; they require almost no effort to make.

This is the same type of bullsh*t excuse they used to justify the lazy Tali photoshop.

[polor89]

well you are wright but i am just telling you what they said and about talis picture there is a video on youtube "explaining" why the did that too it starts at 13:40 enjoy

[kookie28]

polor89 wrote...

mireisen wrote...

LelianaHawke wrote...

ME3 does force Liara onto you. If you romance anyone bar Liara, Kaiden, or Ashley, the final romance flashback as you make your crucible choice is... Liara.

People had to mod this out.

I was very puzzled at this, with my FemShep's LI being blown out of the water. This is one of the reasons why I felt she was forced on Shepard. I mean, I enjoyed the time capsule scene, but I really don't think Liara would've been the last person she thought about; esp. after the goobyes Garrus gave her.

Actually the developers have stated that there are only 3 options for the "FINAL" thought of shepard, the only romance thoughts are (Kaidan-Ashley-Liara) probably because it was difficult ..so many romances.so its not as they want to push liara to you .lol i see in this thread you all love to bash liara:devil:

And about how much time she has on the game well she wasnt almost AT ALL in ME2 unlike garrus or tali although they make it up for this with the shadow broker dlc

Vertigo_1 put Miranda in there in a few days.  That's right.  One guy.  SO DIFFICULT.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

I have been playing Mass Effect 3's multiplayer in my free time, while taking the single player campaign in stride by doing all side-quest then the Priority. I have over 1000 total MS or EMS even before SurKesh so I'm feeling good about getting that 15 second extra "scene". Ever since I heard about the Endings..I feel less compelled to rush to the end (or make a NG+ or another character's playthrough).

Even though that doesn't have anything to do with Liara, it leads up my later statements. She seems to be "forced" into the spotlight regardless of your Shep's LI or choices. I wouldn't complain if your LI on Mars (whether Liara or VS) was the one NOT harmed by the robot, so that your conversations on board the Normandy could bring you closer to your LI instead of hospital visits. Ashley seemed like a one-trick pony talking about her family again but it seemed like the only interesting thing besides being promoted. Don't mind me though, I never got that far in the game so more things could pop up. Liara has the most expanded LI/friend story-arc. Even though she wasn't a "squad member" in ME2, she was in your crew for some DLC and also got to "expand" on your LI or relationship . I'm actually thinking about picking up my old ME2 character and make it my main character because his love interest is Liara. It just feels right because of all the time I can spend with that character. Besides the ME2 LI took the sidelines.

[dgcatanisiri]

Perhaps 'forcing' is the wrong word, but in all honesty, I do feel like Glyph follows Liara around, flashing the words 'Shepard, you should totally embrace eternity with this chick.' And that there are all these little things that, if not punish, then express some form of disappointment or attempts at heartstring tugging if you don't romance her, starting from LotSB - she has that moment of looking sad when Shepard goes to help the other teammate rather than embrace her after defeating the Shadow Broker, as if the game's saying 'why didn't you romance her, you made her sad.'

And then in ME3, she gets several intimate moments with Shepard which the actual LI would actually better serve. Out of all the Normandy crew, she's the only one who invites herself up to Shepard's quarters without an invite, after the first dream sequence. And she's the one who gets a conversation about feelings about the Virmire sacrifice, a conversation that makes more sense to have with the Virmire survivor. She's also repeatedly required to be taken on missions, as opposed to the other crew, who only get one mission each (and in the case of Kaidan/Ashley and James, they don't get a required mission that specifically relates to them as characters).

And out of every squad member, she has no opportunities to kill or remove her from the crew. An argument can be made for EDI, but she's only required to come along on one mission and can otherwise be ignored. There is never an occasion where Liara might die, and you can't send her away to become a war asset. That makes her feel forced upon me when she's the only one getting this treatment.

While I'm at this, let's throw in the mind-melding. It was required in ME1, looping Shepard into going along with it and it's frankly uncomfortable for me. The mind-melding is the asari version of sex. I've heard the description of it being like a Vulcan mind meld, but given that asari are described as needing to link minds in order to reproduce, unlike the mind meld, I don't think it's an accurate comparison. So let's put together what there is of her romance in ME1 - isolated and awkward, young by the standards of her species, rescue her from attackers and getting her hero worship, and then forced to link their minds in her species' equivalent of sex in order to make progress. I don't see this as being romantic, I see it as uncomfortable at best as a starting point, and even if you don't start a relationship until ME3, it still means that before getting together, she's literally been inside Shepard's head at least once if not three times already, not even counting what information she has at her fingertips as the Shadow Broker. How is this a good foundation for a relationship?

And then there's the roleplaying side of things. I'm going to use my preferred Shepard style for an example here. He's gone through hell. He watched his unit on Akuze, including someone he'd been in an early-forming relationship with, be wiped out. He let Ashley, who he'd become good friends with due to their shared experience of losing the people they served with, die on Virmire because she was part of the distraction team. Debris from Sovereign nearly killed him, sheer dumb luck keeping him alive. After all of this, he's put in a DNR on his file because he's been so close to death, he sees it as an old friend, not a thing to be feared, and whenever it would come for him, he'd go with a smile.

And then Liara brings him back.

Yes, the audience knows from the comic that she certainly wasn't alone, but Shepard's knowledge is that she's the one who handed his body to Cerberus to revive him. No one corrects this. He is pissed off. He eventually comes to accept that he was needed, but he hasn't forgiven Liara for it. He understand why she did it, but he still is of the opinion that she did it out of her unhealthy attachment to him. And yet, there is no way to express this in ME3. No moment of calling her out for what she did (in fact, you can only ever express anger ONCE about her part in it between ME2 and ME3, and that's right after she tells Shepard), no way of having Shepard be short with her and expressing anger or dissatisfaction towards her. At most, Shepard can be distant but friendly, as if there are just other things on Shepard's mind and distracting him than it is Shepard not wanting her around.

Now, some of it could be fixed by including more non-Liara LI content. But the fact that she is so protected by the story, with no opportunities to remove her in any way, it still comes across as Liara being preferred by the writers and by extension, forced on the player - if you don't like her, you're still stuck with her across all three games. There's no option of death for EDI or James in the main game, but they're only squadmates in the third game and fairly unobtrusive during the course as well that they can be ignored outside of the moments they're required. Liara is VERy prominent, required on three different missions in the base game of ME3, four when including 'From Ashes.' The other characters only get one, two if you want to call James's inclusion on Mars as a required inclusion, as short as his participation is.