344 réponses à ce sujet

[Hadeedak]

CC-Tron wrote...

Jestina wrote...

Shep's true friends through the series have been Liara and Garrus. Mostly everyone else is only Shep's friend when Shep is doing something they want.

Nonsense. Garrus wasn't  a close friend of Shep in the first game or the second. All he has with Shep that can't be denied is fighting along side him as a squadmate.

Really? In my last game, it sure seemed like in ME1, Garrus was her sidekick and the person she talked to the most. In ME2, he was her best friend and equal. "Just like old times!" And in 3... Welp. "No Shepard without Vakarion."

Also, in my last trilogy run, Shepard was all about bromance turning into dipsmooches and headbumps on the romance front.

In the meantime, Liara got recruited late, didn't get off the ship much (of course, neither did Wrex. I decided I was too lazy to deal with EVERYONE'S DAMN ARMOR AND WEAPONS), and mostly got treated like an adorable, annoying kid sister in 1. In 2, my Shepard exploded on her for giving her body to CEREBRUS, since that Shepard was a sole survivor. And stayed pretty cold throughout LOSTB. In 3, yeah, eventually, friends. And yeah, I thought it was a bit cute that they worked through all that and stayed friends, even though my Shepard spent the first part of their buddyship with her angrypants on.

My point is, different games, different readings. Shepard, Liara, Garrus and Tali are pretty close by 3. There's not really another reading of that dialogue.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 23 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[pprrff]

Rickets wrote...

You can always hit skip you know.

That's dangerous, I was space baring her dialog when I accidentally became more than just friend with her.

[sammysoso]

She is a bit forward, but that's just a product of BioWare basically considering her the canon LI.

Liara is a good friend to my Shepard, and maybe she has more feelings for him than he for her, it's almost sad in a way. I always hoped she would find someone, like Tali and Garrus.

[lillitheris]

gearseffect wrote...

Nope I didn't have audio turned off, and besides I consider the sh!t my Shep sperts out in autodialogue as all %70 BS. It was an invasion of My Sheps privacy whenever he turned around and Liara was practically right on top of him.

Alright, well, I can only work with what really happens rather than what you imagine happens. I think you can make your point perfectly well without resorting to embellishing events.

Of course, it'd be even better if you could make your point that the other characters get too little time and development rather than that Liara gets too much. You'd have a much more sympathetic audience.

Shajar wrote...
If you take bottom "I'm not interested in you at all" option in ME1, you WILL get locked into a romance with Liara. This is simply a fact, it happened to me.

I'd like to see some video proof of this.

…

I've said it above, but I'll certainly say it again: I think the other LIs got shortchanged by the lack of development resources and time. I most certainly think that the situation should be remedied both by measures small (see the small LI improvements thread in the signature) and large (DLC with expanded content for characters).

I also think that, while I personally feel that given the story as written, most Shepards would indeed consider Liara their friend, a very close on even, this is not the case for every Shepard, and should therefore not be forced in Shepard's actions – Liara can of course remain as adorably preoccupied with Shepard as she is now.

At the same time, the vitriol against Liara is both unhealthy and unproductive. Rather than bicker amongst ourselves, would it not be better to present a unified front, demanding that the other LIs are filled out following the example set in the Liara character?

Modifié par lillitheris, 23 avril 2012 - 03:05 .

[xZitx]

I don't have anything against her.
My canon Shep considers her her friend and a very close one at that. I don't get all the rage about it being Liara who comes into your quarters after your bad drams. She is preoccupied, she cares about you no matter if you like her or not. People do that sometimes. As she was my Shep's friend there was no problem and if my Shepard didn't like her? That would be ok, too. It's not like you absolutely have no choice than her for your romantic interest.
And I'd never give up the scence on Rannoch for example, if it meant a bit more dialogue/ a Tali that comes into your cabin 2 times in the whole game after your nightmares. I'm perfectly okay with the content we received...
The game, in my opinion, is not only about Shep and his/her love - it's about Shepard and his/her crew, so if I can interact with all of them, I am more than happy.

Liara never forced hersel upon me, by the way. She accepted a No and that was it. If she IS still in love with my Shepard, well, that's her decision and IRL you cannot control that either.

[CptData]

I dunno. "Forcing on Shepard" is not the right term here.

Liara definitely wants to be a friend of Shepard. She cares deeply for him and maybe a bit too much for human tastes - after all, she's member of a highly emotionally dedicated species. Asari can hate and love in much more variations than humans can do.
That may be one reason. Another is Liara's youth and low experience with human nature: maybe she IS always quite reluctant in Asari standards - which still feels like "a bit too close" for human tastes.

Of course, that's my headcanon so far - and it helped greatly to like her character. Besides that, "hate" shouldn't be directed on Liara - but it's definitely okay to dislike writers decisions of BW to make her the "closest friend of Shepard". I said it before in another Liara-centered thread: your choices do matter - which was the case in ME1 and ME2 but is no longer a feature in ME3. You still can refuse any friendship with Liara, sure - but only in the jerkass way. There's no diplomatic way to keep things on a more comfortable level for those who didn't romance Liara.
Either "yes, I care for you too" or "f*ck off".
Both options don't work for me.

What makes ppl upset is the lack of choice. I also said in that other Liara-thread - some of Liara's scenes in ME3 should have been reserved for her romance AND the other LIs as well. The "biggest illusion of choices do matter" could have been to make the LI to the second most important character in the game and not Liara.

I think everyone understands this.

[Ice Cold J]

I support this thread. If you don't romance her, Liara is that girl who'd do anything for you, even if you don't return the same sentiments.

[4stringwizard]

sammysoso wrote...

She is a bit forward, but that's just a product of BioWare basically considering her the canon LI.

Liara is a good friend to my Shepard, and maybe she has more feelings for him than he for her, it's almost sad in a way. I always hoped she would find someone, like Tali and Garrus.

She always has Javik.  

[BatmanPWNS]

4stringwizard wrote...

sammysoso wrote...

She is a bit forward, but that's just a product of BioWare basically considering her the canon LI.

Liara is a good friend to my Shepard, and maybe she has more feelings for him than he for her, it's almost sad in a way. I always hoped she would find someone, like Tali and Garrus.

She always has Javik.  

God, I hope not. Mary "Liara" Sue already has everyone kissing up to her. We don't need the last badass who doesn't kiss ass at all to become one too.

[Hadeedak]

Feron? I've been routing for them if Liara's unromanced. Girl needs some hugs.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 24 avril 2012 - 09:59 .

[Mathias]

Liara is basically Bioware's way of saying "Oh you know that other girl/guy you romanced? Yeah you're playing the game wrong. Liara is the girl you should be romancing."

As CptData said, there are scenes with Liara that should've been reserved for your LI. I don't even know why she is plot armor, because she's not THAT central to the plot. No more central to the plot than Garrus and Tali for example.

[Veltazar]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

As CptData said, there are scenes with Liara that should've been reserved for your LI. I don't even know why she is plot armor, because she's not THAT central to the plot. No more central to the plot than Garrus and Tali for example.

I agree with the first sentence. The rest not so sure. Tali had the Geth and Quarian war to deal with, Garrus with Palaven earlier on. Each character is central to the plot but I don't see anyone else quite as fitting for information gathering as Liara. Additionally, knowledge is power... so there's the reason for the temporary plot armour. It's important to the storyline for solutions to present itself, it just so happens that Prothean archives were the source.

[Mathias]

Veltazar wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

As CptData said, there are scenes with Liara that should've been reserved for your LI. I don't even know why she is plot armor, because she's not THAT central to the plot. No more central to the plot than Garrus and Tali for example.

I agree with the first sentence. The rest not so sure. Tali had the Geth and Quarian war to deal with, Garrus with Palaven earlier on. Each character is central to the plot but I don't see anyone else quite as fitting for information gathering as Liara. Additionally, knowledge is power... so there's the reason for the temporary plot armour. It's important to the storyline for solutions to present itself, it just so happens that Prothean archives were the source.

After the Mars Mission, she didn't need to have plot armor. She could've easily been replaced by another character, or you simply lose the assets.

[CptData]

Veltazar wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

As CptData said, there are scenes with Liara that should've been reserved for your LI. I don't even know why she is plot armor, because she's not THAT central to the plot. No more central to the plot than Garrus and Tali for example.

I agree with the first sentence. The rest not so sure. Tali had the Geth and Quarian war to deal with, Garrus with Palaven earlier on. Each character is central to the plot but I don't see anyone else quite as fitting for information gathering as Liara. Additionally, knowledge is power... so there's the reason for the temporary plot armour. It's important to the storyline for solutions to present itself, it just so happens that Prothean archives were the source.

Liara's role seems to be a more emotional one. She's there, supporting Shepard, giving him/her gifts TWICE (time capsule and the final dialogue), visiting Shepard THRICE in the loft.
Plus: she's needed on Mars and later on Thessia. Basically, those plot points are Liara's contribution the the story.

Let's make a clear statement:

Emotional support works fine if Liara is your LI. It feels a bit odd ("forced", if you like that term) if Liara is only a friend. You can't keep that relationship on a more professional (but friendly) level. And even if your Shepard has been a pure jerk to Liara in ME1 and ME2, she's still a "close friend" in ME3.
The rest of Liara's role is fine to me.

Therefore I think the role as emotional support Liara currently has should be shifted towards "emotional support is LI stuff". It doesn't matter if Miranda, Jack, Jacob, Ashley, Kaidan or whomever is your LI - she or he should give that support Liara does currently. That's all.

So if Liara is your LI, you won't see a difference storywise. She's your lover and greatest emotional supporter.
If you pick Kaidan als LI, he should appear and comfort Shepard.
If it's Ashley, so Ash is the emotional supporter.
Same for Miranda, Thane (as long as he's alive) etc

[NGC1300]

I still don't understand why people are always asking about why Liara is forcing herself on you. She stated pretty clearly in ME1 that she had interest in Shep, being friends for many years surely augmented her feelings. Can't people see?

[Wulfram]

More LI stuff would always be nice. But replacing Liara scenes with LI scenes would require 10 times the resources. And would be even more problematic for the LIs who aren't on board the ship.

[CptData]

Wulfram wrote...

More LI stuff would always be nice. But replacing Liara scenes with LI scenes would require 10 times the resources. And would be even more problematic for the LIs who aren't on board the ship.

Yes and no.

Yes: it does need extra resources.

No: I can't really see issues for those LIs not being on board. They could give Shepard comfort on the Citadel for example


Any seriously: would Liara!fans enjoy the game as much as they do if not Liara but Ashley would have all the spotlight and emotional scenes? I doubt so. They would feel cheated and that for a reason.
That's why I'm asking for some support from Liara!fans for any upcoming projects aimed at more content for the rest of the LIs.

Modifié par CptData, 25 avril 2012 - 01:00 .

[Wulfram]

The writers clearly wanted the scenes to come after Shepard's dreams. Which only works with people who are on board.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Really I think this is just an example of how we don't have as much choice in Mass Effect as we'd like to think. I always hated it when FemShep would flirt with Jacob without my permission, now I won't let her chat to him because it makes me want to punch her in the face. So I can see why people would be annoyed that "their Shepard" is being friendly with Liara when they don't imagine Shepard would really get on with her. I don't really get people taking issue with Liara liking Shepard no matter what though. If Shepard is actively mean to Liara then yes it would make Liara seem a bit crazy. I like the unrequited thing Liara has going on with a "just friends" Shep and I don't see anything wrong with two friends having some heart to heart conversations.

[CptData]

@ Wulfram: I, as a writer on my own, say, the writers did a lot of mistakes. Overall the story is okay, but in some details there decisions don't make much sense. Favoritism is always an issue of any writer - s/he always has a favorite character that gets extra content other characters (even if they're main characters as well) won't get.

I just say Liara's special content (time capsule, post-Thessia, the gift) should be reserved for her very own romance arc. There it works.

Let's say it should be like this:

Romanced Liara: same deal. Period. Nothing to remove, change, replace or add.
Non-romanced Liara: reduce romantic context of "time capsule" or remove that scene
Thessia comfort: reduce it to friendly talk on neutral ground (not Liara's cabin).
Farewell dialogue: at least a third, neutral option allowing the player to reject that gift without being a jerk to Liara.

Works to me.

Remember: choices DID matter in ME1 and ME2. They don't matter in ME3, neither those of the past - nor those you no longer can do since your Shepard is railroaded most of the game with autodialogue & such. Your romances ... feel incomplete if you didn't pick Liara. Another proof your choices don't matter. If you don't pick the series' primary romance - which wasn't the "primary romance" until ME3 (!!!!) you're doing it wrong.

[Wulfram]

There isn't romantic context to the time capsule scene. It's a little jarring if you are in a romance with her, actually.

I'm not sure why a non-romanced Shepard wouldn't go to Liara's cabin to comfort her. The dialogue again isn't very romantic, even if you romanced her.

Actually, I think Liara's romance suffers somewhat from how much non-romance content it has. It doesn't always fit.

The other romances I've tried - Garrus and Traynor - flow more naturally because they don't feel like they switch between good friends and LIs.

Modifié par Wulfram, 25 avril 2012 - 01:55 .

[CptData]

Wulfram:

The time capsule scene feels "too intimate for friends" for my taste. I don't know why, but it definitely feels less like a friend doing stuff for you but someone who truly loves you. Now, that may be the case for Liara but it's highly irritating if you just want to be a friend.

Also keep in mind not every romance consists ONLY of romantic moments. The reason why I enjoy Ashley's romance that much (at least in ME1) was the great friendship acting as foundation for their love. That foundation is missing in ME3, therefore Ashley's romance feels incomplete, lacks content ... and sort of hollow. The promise of the beginning - that "special bond" - is missing in the story.

I could say, that "special bond" works for Liara. It's there, you can feel the vibes in every scene with Liara, romanced and non-romanced. You can't feel the same for Ashley.

That's, of course, only my impression. I can speak only for Ashley's romance since that's the only one I experienced so far in ME3 - I had only one playthrough and can't force myself to import another Shepard.
But for me, Ashley's romance feels extremely incomplete and I wish some of Liara's scenes would have been done with Ashley (in her romance only).

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Personally I thought those scenes work well if Liara and Shepard are friends. Sometimes you end up missing out on a lot of content if you don't romance a character, I think its nice to have some friendship content. Garrus and Liara in particular have great friendship content. I wish there were more characters with similar friendship content.

[Wulfram]

I'd say Ashley is just alround short of content, actually. I wouldn't want any extra content to focus too much on LI stuff, because then I wouldn't get to see it much.