344 réponses à ce sujet

[CptData]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

Personally I thought those scenes work well if Liara and Shepard are friends. Sometimes you end up missing out on a lot of content if you don't romance a character, I think its nice to have some friendship content. Garrus and Liara in particular have great friendship content. I wish there were more characters with similar friendship content.

True. However, as I said before, a lot of scenes currently done by Liara only could have been done with the player's chosen LI too.

To give a simple statement right here:

Since BW told you "choices do matter", the second most important character next to Shepard in your playthrough should be your love interest. That's the character you should care for most and that character should be the one who gives most support to your Shepard.

Reality is: in ME1 and ME2 this statement is true.
In ME3, this statement is false.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I think a lot of the choices you make in Mass Effect have been pretty superficial anyway. But I still appreciated getting an email in ME2 from someone Shep saved in ME1 or hearing on the galaxy news in ME2 how biotic extremists killed a hostage because I couldn't be arsed to do that mission in ME1. It didn't make a difference to the plot but it was still nifty that the game knew. I didn't really notice as much of that in ME3. Maybe there wasn't enough time to do it. I suppose by ME3 there are so many different ways people could have played the game that it would be impossible to make it work for everyone. I was sad about the lack of content for Morinth, I thought she had the potential to be a really interesting character, but I get why they didn't bother. Not many people recruit Morinth and then its possible for her to die in the SM. So why bother spending money and time on content that the vast majority of players won't see? It just isn't cost effective, sad but true. Where as Liara is in everyone's game.

[CptData]

Sarcastic:

I concur with BW in a way it's impossible to display any single detail decision in the final part of the trilogy. No one cares for saved five scientists in ME3 for example - and no one cares if you paragonized Garrus in ME1 or not.
However, some decisions done in the trilogy should have been more than just "25 points of war assets". Like saving the Rachni Queen.

Also I think BW simply had not the resources for giving ALL LIs a proper treatment. Let's face it: ME2 romances got shafted. Only Garrus and Tali got a proper treatment, the rest of the romances starting in ME2 got sidelined.

I dunno who this said of the team, but BW basically regretted the Suicide Mission: too many variables and since everyone can die, it's a hell of a work to create a coherent storyline still based on the characters. Result? BW simply created a storyline that worked without those characters - and it shows when starting a new Shepard from scratch in ME3: most of the characters of ME2 died.

What's really surprising is the bad treatment of the VS. Ash & Kaidan were both great characters in ME1. In ME2 sidelined, they ALSO got sidelined in ME3. It's kinda sad the VS has more lines to talk BEFORE joining the crew again. Once the VS is back, it seems BW had no idea what to do with him or her. Kaidan got little interaction stuff with the crew, Ash none at all.

So in the long run, choices never mattered. The illusion perfectly done in ME1 and ME2 got utterly destroyed in ME3. Not just the endings nixed any decisions you did in the entirely trilogy. ME3 itself negated most of those decisions - or gave you a clear hint when you did something wrong. It's very visible with certain romances.

[kumquats]

I just imagined Jack in some of the Liara scenes.... and had a laugh flash.

[DineBoo]

Liara was in everyone's game because she was plot armored to death. If Bioware didn't want to deal with consequences of people dying(LIs and squadmates), then they shouldn't have done it. Same with dealing with multiple LIs. I'd rather they'd just left it at Liara and be done with it if they were going to forget about LIs(Thane), butcher them (Jacob), reduce their content like they didn't matter (Jack/Miranda/Ashley), of don't raise them to the Liara standard (Tali/Garrus). Maybe they didn't see the complications, but they built the ME series on the premise that choices matter. The majority of resources should have allocated to squad, crew and LIs. Little things like non critical missions could have been given e-mail treatment and still be immersive.

So I agree with CptData. Forced is probably the wrong word, but it was obvious Liara was a favorite. Garrus might have forced friendship, but he could have been killed off along with everyone else.

They should have done certain scenes on a LI/Friendship tier. Liara talking to Shep after Mars bad dream was OK, but Tuchunka? LI or friend you talked to the most. It made no sense in my game where Garrus, my LI, tells me to get some sleep, and then have Liara show up in my cabin. That seems terribly out of character for Garrus, especially since he asks how you are after the bad dream in his romance scene. I would think he would check up on you.

Bad dream wake ups should have be LIs if on board the Normandy, or a comm check by Joker, Edi, or whoever you talked to the most. If that didn't happen, or if Liara was talked to or your LI, then she shows up in the cabin.

The time capsule should have been shifted to after Sanctuary. By then, you're locked into a relationship, so Liara and your LI could have done the project together (like someone suggested). Garrus would things about turians, Tali about her homeword and people, Ashley with poetry. No LI? Default to Liara, but with a clinic archaeologist feel. LI Liara? Then the scene plays out as is. Non Squaddie LIs could at least have a romantic scene with Shep after Liara left.

Liara telling Shep about missions like the Aradat Yakshi? Why couldn't that go to Traynor, who has been giving me missions throughout the entire game? Or EDI? Why did it have to be Liara? Thessia, sure. But that's a symptom of Liara popping up where she didn't have to be.

So mostly it's the favoritism that's backlashing against Liara. If the writers had treated everyone equally, and given all LIs a Liara caliber romance, then I'm sure people wouldn't have minded Liara so much. But when your LI/people want to continue friendship with get shafted, it's easy to shift dislike over to Liara, as she has the most complete arc in the game.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Yeah I don't get the lack of content for the VS. They can't both be dead at the start of ME3 so it would make sense to give them more content. Garrus ended up having way more content than I expected.

I was expecting choices like the rachni queen and the collector base to make more of a difference than they did. They really did oversell the whole "choices matter" thing. Perhaps having choices that span over 3 games was a bit too ambitious. Seems like they could have used some more time to really do it justice.

[CptData]

DineBoo wrote...
[...]

The time capsule should have been shifted to after Sanctuary. By then, you're locked into a relationship, so Liara and your LI could have done the project together (like someone suggested). Garrus would things about turians, Tali about her homeword and people, Ashley with poetry. No LI? Default to Liara, but with a clinic archaeologist feel. LI Liara? Then the scene plays out as is. Non Squaddie LIs could at least have a romantic scene with Shep after Liara left.

[...]

This.
And the best of it?
It can be done via DLC. Removing the time capsule scene at the beginning by either skipping it fully or replacing it with another scene works well since that scene only has emotional impact on the player but no impact on the story. It simply can be skipped.

Once you're done with the sanctuary mission, there's time for the "time capsule scene". It makes sense because you're always locked in to a romance at that point (and if not / the LI is not on board, Liara still can do it) and the "end is near". So yes, I do support your idea.

[speedy111280]

DineBoo wrote...

Liara telling Shep about missions like the Aradat Yakshi? Why couldn't that go to Traynor, who has been giving
me missions throughout the entire game? Or EDI? Why did it have to be Liara? Thessia, sure. But that's a symptom of Liara popping up where shedidn't have to be.

Why would Traynor give Shepard a mission that comes as a special request from Asari High Command?
Especially with it involving the Asari's most shameful secret? Liara gives you that mission because Asari High Command know she's with Shepard (most likely thanks to the Matriarch's having her watched by Aethyta) and who would they be more likely to contact about mission involving Ardat-Yakshi, the daughter of a once respected Matriarch that the government has been keeping tabs on for a few years now or a random unknown human soldier? Remember that outside of Shepard's crew in ME2 (and possibly TIM) there aren't any others that we know of outside the Asari race that are aware of the existence of Ardat-Yakshi, they are the Asari's dirty little secret.

The below is directed to everyone who says Liara is "forcing" herself on Shepard and not in relation to the post quoted above...

It's not realistic to say Liara is "forcing" herself on Shepard because of a few bugs/glitches that Bioware never
bothered to fix with updates or because of how she is written because Liara doesn't just randomly show up and force Shepard to sleep with her if you are romancing someone else; yes there is a bug/glitch that locks in the romance w/ her in ME1 but it's known by so many on the BSN it's pretty easy for someone to figure out how to avoid it or correct it and thats on Bioware for not bothering to fix it not Liara. You can say the writers are forcing her on your Shepard b/c the writers force a lot of things on Shepard starting in ME2. They took away a lot of your ability to make choices. If someone didn't want to have anything to do with Garrus in ME1 you are forced to have him on board in ME2, you are forced to work with Cerberus you are forced into a lot of different things by the story the writers laid out because there is a set story they want to tell. Unfortuntately for some players that means that Liara is the only former squadmate guaranteed to be in every Shepard's ME3 crew and a lot of story points were given to her because there is the possibility that she is the only person on the ship other than EDI that actually knows Shepard prior to the game. Your anger at that would be better directed at the writers than the character who actually has no control over what she does because she's not real, she's only doing what the writers have written for her. You would find a lot less hostility to threads with titles like this from her fans. I can certainly understand the frustration because there were a lot of things done to characters in ME3 that I didn't like either since none of the former squadmates but Liara, Garrus and Tali got any really good content and how easy it was to accidentally get Miranda killed or that Samara can kill herself. That's all on the writers though and not the fault of the characters. I'm not saying you have to like Liara because to each their own, but it's unfair to blame a character for decisions the writers made. Put the blame for the things you dislike about Liara's storyline in ME3 where they belong, with the writers.

Modifié par speedy111280, 25 avril 2012 - 04:16 .

[DineBoo]

speedy111280 wrote...

Why would Traynor give Shepard a mission that comes as a special request from Asari High Command?
Especially with it involving the Asari's most shameful secret? Liara gives you that mission because Asari High Command know she's with Shepard (most likely thanks to the Matriarch's having her watched by Aethyta) and who would they be more likely to contact about mission involving Ardat-Yakshi, the daughter of a once respected Matriarch that the government has been keeping tabs on for a few years now or a random unknown human soldier? Remember that outside of Shepard's crew in ME2 (and possibly TIM) there aren't any others that we know of outside the Asari race that are aware of the existence of Ardat-Yakshi, they are the Asari's dirty little secret.

I was using this as an example of Liara showing up when she really isn't needed. Hackett could have given that mission, as could EDI or Traynor. The primarch sends you an e-mail about a Cerberus mole. Just because the mission comes from asari high command doesn't mean Liara had to personally deliver the mission.

And yes, people are hating the writers for injecting Liara everywhere. But that doesn't mean they like having Liara in situations best suited for an LI or an friend other than Liara. There where times where I would have rather talked to Tali, an unrommanced Kaidan, or Joker than Liara. And then have my LI Garrus checking in on me after the stupid bad dreams.

Liara is just the lynchpin of showing what could hace been when it comes to other LIs, crew, and squadmates. People see what she got compared to their own LIs and they are justifiably upset. Some people saw their favorite characters get extremely reduced content or butchered beyond recognitions. All romances should have been like Liara's with their own special touches. And those who din't want Liara around shouldn't have been made to accept a friendship with her, especially if they wanted to be closer to other characters.


And people shouldn't be forced to romance Liara(or Garrus/Tali) just to expereinece the better portions of the game. Everyone is not going to like the same characters, and BW should have known this.

[Moirha]

speedy111280 wrote...

...You can say the writers are forcing her on your Shepard b/c the writers force a lot of things on Shepard starting in ME2. They took away a lot of your ability to make choices. If someone didn't want to have anything to do with Garrus in ME1 you are forced to have him on board in ME2, you are forced to work with Cerberus you are forced into a lot of different things by the story the writers laid out because there is a set story they want to tell.
...
Your anger at that would be better directed at the writers than the character who actually has no control over what she does because she's not real, she's only doing what the writers have written for her.
...
I'm not saying you have to like Liara because to each their own, but it's unfair to blame a character for decisions the writers made. Put the blame for the things you dislike about Liara's storyline in ME3 where they belong, with the writers.

^This.

In the words of Jessica Rabbit: "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."

And same goes for any other haters of characters. Be it Mass Effect or Dragon Age or what-have-you. 

Modifié par Moirha, 26 avril 2012 - 06:51 .

[CptData]

Think we finally reached a point where everyone is on the same side, Liara!fans and other LI!fans as well ...

Well done.
Now let's use it for our advantage. Stand together, stand strong!

[speedy111280]

DineBoo wrote...

I was using this as an example of Liara showing up when she really isn't needed. Hackett could have given that mission, as could EDI or Traynor. The primarch sends you an e-mail about a Cerberus mole. Just because the mission comes from asari high command doesn't mean Liara had to personally deliver the mission.

And yes, people are hating the writers for injecting Liara everywhere. But that doesn't mean they like having Liara in situations best suited for an LI or an friend other than Liara. There where times where I would have rather talked to Tali, an unrommanced Kaidan, or Joker than Liara. And then have my LI Garrus checking in on me after the stupid bad dreams.

Liara is just the lynchpin of showing what could hace been when it comes to other LIs, crew, and squadmates. People see what she got compared to their own LIs and they are justifiably upset. Some people saw their favorite characters get extremely reduced content or butchered beyond recognitions. All romances should have been like Liara's with their own special touches. And those who din't want Liara around shouldn't have been made to accept a friendship with her, especially if they wanted to be closer to other characters.


And people shouldn't be forced to romance Liara(or Garrus/Tali) just to expereinece the better portions of the game. Everyone is not going to like the same characters, and BW should have known this.

You are missing the point I'm making the Ardat-Yakshi mission. It is actually the only mission Liara  gives you and the reason is because the Asari do not tell just anyone about the existence of Ardat-Yaksh, their existence is a secret as closely guarded as the beacon in the Temple of the Athame and neither of those missions come through the Alliance, they come from an Asari, Thessia comes from the Councilor when you go back to the Citadel and Lesus come from Liara via Asari High Command. The only other people who could have logically given Shepard the mission based on the secrecy of the Ardat-Yakshi are Councilor Tevos (or her replacement if you let the Council die in ME1) or Samara. Those would have been acceptable alternatives but not Hackett or Traynor or EDI. Asari High Command would not have risked Shepard being questioned about the mission by the Alliance if they requested aid through the Alliance so it makes much more sense that they ask for help through an Asari and it seems more logical to pass the request directly through the Asari they know is traveling with Shepard thanks to the Matriarch's spying on Liara but it could have just as easily been passed through the Councilor or even Samara if she's alive in the game. Anyone else would make no sense because of the secrecy the writers put around the existence of Ardat-Yakshi in ME2. Again this isn't something that is Liara's fault, it's the writers. I would have no problem with the writers having the mission come from the Councilor or Samara for those that have Shepard's who are not close to Liara but Hackett or Traynor would make no sense based on the previous information we have about the Ardat-Yakshi.

I don't diagree with you that they should have had other characters do some of the stuff Liara does for Shepard's that didn't romance her or aren't particularly fond of her. But you only have to read the threads that have popped up about Liara and other characters (they aren't restricted to Liara they just tend to stick out more because so many other characters got trashed by the writers and Liara didn't) since ME3 to see that not every one blames the writers for it. Some do and I'm glad that you and a few others here and in other threads like this are but there are many in threads with titles like this one where fans are blaming the character for choices the writers made and in the process making some ridiculous and outrageous accusations about the character. I'm certainly not saying anyone has to like Liara, because I certainly don't like every character but I'm not blaming the characters in ME3 for their crappy handling. It's certainly not Ashley or Liara or Kaidan's fault that Liara got more story than Ash or that Kaidan is used far better in ME3 than Ashley (and I've never been a fan of Kaidan I've always preferred Ashley), it's not Liara's fault that her romance is pretty much friendzoned for nearly the entire game or that it feels like Shepard is begging for Liara back in LotSB and then the bug that doesn't recognize the renewal of that relationship, nor is it Jacob's fault that Jacob is a douche to a FemShep who romanced him (especially when you compare the 6 months between 2 and 3 to the over 2 years before Shep can renew the relationship with Liara) that is all on the writers and the devs and would be a lot nicer around the forums if more people recognized that.

[Karrie788]

Agreed. I don't blame Liara. What would I blame her for anyway? I really want to like her, actually. We're kinda alike on the shy, nerdy and socially awkward ground.

But I went from feeling neutral about her in ME1 to feeling irritated everytime she shows up in Shep's cabin despite the fact that I sometimes was awful to her during the course of three games, or basically shows off her Mary-sueness. Not that I dislike all Mary Sues. Some are pretty cool.

In short yeah, I do blame the writers for constantly throwing her in my way, regardless of the Shepard I play.

I really wanted to like her. I'm actually tempted to run a Liaramance playthrough to try to appreciate her character.

[DineBoo]

^^ This, except I don't want to romance Liara.

I don't hate Liara. I'm just irritated with how she would pop up in places better suited for your LI or other characters.

And yes writers are to blame, but since they made Liare their favorite pet and waifu, people's irritation with the writers spill onto Liara. Especially since she gets all kinds of fluff that other marginalized characters could dream of gettting.

I can understand that "hate".

[Lamepro]

ME1 you do have that option tell her ether your with Ashely or Kadain or better yet not talk to her at all.

[Jestina]

People are crying about something there's no need to cry about. Let's see...we had a hooker called Miranda shoved on us in ME2, not to mention having to work with Cerberus whether we liked it or not. We got stuck with useless Tali again in ME2...and Liara wasn't even a squad mate. I didn't like any of that stuff but never posted such whiny cry threads about it. So get over your butthurt and move on, or go play something else.

Modifié par Jestina, 26 avril 2012 - 03:08 .

[MACharlie1]

Jestina wrote...

People are crying about something there's no need to cry about. Let's see...we had a hooker called Miranda shoved on us in ME2, not to mention having to work with Cerberus whether we liked it or not. We got stuck with useless Tali again in ME2...and Liara wasn't even a squad mate. I didn't like any of that stuff but never posted such whiny cry threads about it. So get over your butthurt and move on, or go play something else.

DIdn't you complain about Kaidan and Cortez hitting on your Shepard a little while back? 

[CptData]

Jestina wrote...

People are crying about something there's no need to cry about. Let's see...we had a hooker called Miranda shoved on us in ME2, not to mention having to work with Cerberus whether we liked it or not. We got stuck with useless Tali again in ME2...and Liara wasn't even a squad mate. I didn't like any of that stuff but never posted such whiny cry threads about it. So get over your butthurt and move on, or go play something else.

Let's put it this way:
One of the character fandoms is already dying since bad treatment of that particular character.
It has nothing to do with Liara, but the fandom I speak about -feels- badly treated after sidelining that character for a full game PLUS another half game - and the reward was ONE (!) different line.

That's not "butthurt" but "feeling betrayed".

[kookie28]

I remember a time when I didn't have to talk to Liara.

Those were better days.

[Melra]

Jestina wrote...

People are crying about something there's no need to cry about. Let's see...we had a hooker called Miranda shoved on us in ME2, not to mention having to work with Cerberus whether we liked it or not. We got stuck with useless Tali again in ME2...and Liara wasn't even a squad mate. I didn't like any of that stuff but never posted such whiny cry threads about it. So get over your butthurt and move on, or go play something else.

Hooker Miranda? Hahah. Oh please, she never forced herself on people. She was more like trying to push away people (Shepards)  who weren't worthy of her time. Liara is an awful character tbh, I never saw too much use for her. She doesn't fit my playstyle nor do I like asari. All she does is whine about something to Shepard or try to get into his/her pants. And she doesn't even take payments.