66 réponses à ce sujet

[Eonassassin]

I was just wondering what people think about Andraste's Ashes, do you all believe that they contain some sort of magical power that helps heal? or is it like a placebo, you think it will work therefore it works?

[Original182]

For Arl Eamon's case, you cannot use it as a placebo, because he is unconscious and not aware. So the case that it has miraculous healing powers is stronger.

[The Angry One]

Eamon was in a coma when they were used, for it to be a placebo you would have to know it was being used.

They definitely work. Not surprising given the high concentration of Lyrium in the temple, and the probability that Andraste was a mage.

[Original182]

Yes they definitely work, but because it is a miraculous sign from the Maker, not due to any lyrium phenomenon which hasn't been proven through research.

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...

Yes they definitely work, but because it is a miraculous sign from the Maker, not due to any lyrium phenomenon which hasn't been proven through research.

Lyrium's effects on the ashes hasn't been proven through research, therefore it's proof that Andraste had sex with an absentee deity?
You're being sarcastic, right?

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...
Lyrium's effects on the ashes hasn't been proven through research, therefore it's proof that Andraste had sex with an absentee deity?
You're being sarcastic, right?

Well you're so blind that even Andraste's ashes can't heal you.
Maybe it's a combination of everything. Maybe Andraste, who was just a humble wife with no magic origins, became a powerful mage thanks to being given the Spirit of Faith (same as Wynne) by the Maker. The divine intervention by the Maker on the ashes using lyrium then made it miraculous.

[The Angry One]

Original182 wrote...

Well you're so blind that even Andraste's ashes can't heal you.
Maybe it's a combination of everything. Maybe Andraste, who was just a humble wife with no magic origins, became a powerful mage thanks to being given the Spirit of Faith (same as Wynne) by the Maker. The divine intervention by the Maker on the ashes using lyrium then made it miraculous.

Wynne speculates it is a spirit of faith, it is not certain.
In any case, the spirit is a Fade being, no different from a demon other than in attitude, demons being selfish and amoral, spirits being more balanced and uninterested in using humans for their own benefit.
 Fade being possession doesn't give you magic power. A possessed mage was always a mage, a possessed templar is still a templar.

Finally, Occam's Razor. Do I conclude Andraste's ashes are magical because they're in a building teeming with Lyrium and magical energy, or do I make up a whole set of unlikely occurences to conclude that this is proof of the Maker! Praise the LORD!
Yeah I'll take the former.

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 décembre 2009 - 02:29 .

[SardaukarElite]

Maybe that aren't even Andraste's ashes.



Really all you know is that there is some dust in an urn that can heal people, everything else is hearsay.



I'm more interested in how you take them. Snorting?

[Galad22]

Oghren doubts ashes are actually magical, rather that temple and most pure lyriym ever anywhere is changing ashes and everything else in that temple. Definitely just as plausible explanation than magical healing ashes of a long dead prophet of an uncaring god.

Seriously I don't like chantry much evil exalted march mongering fanatics.

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...
Finally, Occam's Razor. Do I conclude Andraste's ashes are magical because they're in a building teeming with Lyrium and magical energy, or do I make up a whole set of unlikely occurences to conclude that this is proof of the Maker! Praise the LORD!
Yeah I'll take the former.

I cannot prove that Andraste was a mage, and cannot prove through research that exposure of dust to lyrium causes it to be a panacea. Therefore, I'm gonna ridicule all other theories that I don't like, in order to make myself more convincing.
Oh that takes the cake folks.

[Darker_than_black]

Original182 wrote...Well you're so blind that even Andraste's ashes can't heal you.
Maybe it's a combination of everything. Maybe Andraste, who was just a humble wife with no magic origins, became a powerful mage thanks to being given the Spirit of Faith (same as Wynne) by the Maker. The divine intervention by the Maker on the ashes using lyrium then made it miraculous.

I have also though around the lines that Andraste was maybe some sort of Spirit healer like Wynne, possessed by a benevolent spirit instead of a demon. Something must have caused the ashes to be magical. I refuse to belive that they worked simply because it is the ashes of the "chantry's prophet". I don't like the though that she was literally "blessed" by the maker, but that she possessed some kind of magical, miracilous power which were explained as a gift from the maker.

I picture the Chantry's god as someone who does not meddle in the affairs of mortals like the old gods, he is just someone you pray to because you seek comfort in beliving in something. Maybe the maker exist, maybe the maker is just something invented by man in a time of crisis and need.

[The Angry One]

There are theories in-game that Andraste was a mage, and it certainly fits with historical accounts.

The healing and regenerative properties of Lyrium are obvious, I suggest actually playing the game before deriding other's theories.

[Raxtoren]

It might not be her ashes, might be a spirit trying to give humanity hope in dark times.

The whole Andraste thing might be a possessed Andraste by a well-willingly spirit.

[Original182]

Galad22 wrote...

Oghren doubts ashes are actually magical, rather that temple and most pure lyriym ever anywhere is changing ashes and everything else in that temple. Definitely just as plausible explanation than magical healing ashes of a long dead prophet of an uncaring god.

Seriously I don't like chantry much evil exalted march mongering fanatics.

In order to be an expert on all things magical, you probably need to be a professor. Oghren is just a drunken dwarf of the warrior caste. Probably not the BEST candidate on the subject.
Andraste's Exalted March freed the elves.

The most war-mongering person in the game is not the Chantry. It's probably Loghain.

[Darker_than_black]

Original182 wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Oghren doubts ashes are actually magical, rather that temple and most pure lyriym ever anywhere is changing ashes and everything else in that temple. Definitely just as plausible explanation than magical healing ashes of a long dead prophet of an uncaring god.

Seriously I don't like chantry much evil exalted march mongering fanatics.

In order to be an expert on all things magical, you probably need to be a professor. Oghren is just a drunken dwarf of the warrior caste. Probably not the BEST candidate on the subject.
Andraste's Exalted March freed the elves.

The most war-mongering person in the game is not the Chantry. It's probably Loghain.

Yeah, and a few centuries later the Chantry lead an exalted march against the "blasphemous elves" because they refused to worship the maker. In so doing the Chantry destroyed the elven homeland of the Dales. Yeah, the Chantry folks are a nice and humble bunch. <_<

Modifié par Darker_than_black, 06 décembre 2009 - 02:47 .

[Original182]

The Angry One wrote...

There are theories in-game that Andraste was a mage, and it certainly fits with historical accounts.
The healing and regenerative properties of Lyrium are obvious, I suggest actually playing the game before deriding other's theories.

Andraste being a mage is as probable as there being a Maker actually. And no, I don't remember historical accounts of Andraste casting spells.
Healing and regenerative properties of Lyrium is irrelevant. It doesn't make anything able to heal. Magical weapons can't heal for instance. And even if it did, no known healing magic could heal Arl Eamon. Except the ashes of a prophet of the Maker. Coincidence cannot explain that away.

I suggest you open your mind a bit more.

[Alastrian]

Original182 wrote...

In order to be an expert on all things magical, you probably need to be a professor. Oghren is just a drunken dwarf of the warrior caste. Probably not the BEST candidate on the subject.

You don't think a dwarf of the warrior caste, sober or drunk might have had some first hand observations of the effects of lyrium during his excursions in the Deep Roads?

Andraste's Exalted March freed the elves.

Yes... but another exalted march after her time enslaved them again.

The most war-mongering person in the game is not the Chantry. It's probably Loghain.

You don't think the Archdemon is more of a warmonger than Loghain?

Modifié par Alastrian, 06 décembre 2009 - 02:52 .

[Galad22]

Original182 wrote...

In order to be an expert on all things magical, you probably need to be a professor. Oghren is just a drunken dwarf of the warrior caste. Probably not the BEST candidate on the subject.
Andraste's Exalted March freed the elves.

The most war-mongering person in the game is not the Chantry. It's probably Loghain.

Yes and few centuries later another exalted march subjugated elven homeland given to elves by chantrys own prophet no less.

And what was the reason? They had their own gods and didn't believe in the maker.

But no doubt, most war-mongering person is Loghain, however chantry has done much evil as well.

And I just said that Oghrens suggestion is just as plausible as chantrys.

[Darker_than_black]

It is so lovely to see people post the same thing over and over again, not bother to check if some one allready wrote it in an earlier post...

[Original182]

Darker_than_black wrote...
I have also though around the lines that Andraste was maybe some sort of Spirit healer like Wynne, possessed by a benevolent spirit instead of a demon. Something must have caused the ashes to be magical. I refuse to belive that they worked simply because it is the ashes of the "chantry's prophet". I don't like the though that she was literally "blessed" by the maker, but that she possessed some kind of magical, miracilous power which were explained as a gift from the maker.

I picture the Chantry's god as someone who does not meddle in the affairs of mortals like the old gods, he is just someone you pray to because you seek comfort in beliving in something. Maybe the maker exist, maybe the maker is just something invented by man in a time of crisis and need.

Actually the post you replied to was just me trying to be inclusive to everyone and to compromise. Even if Andraste was a Spirit Healer like Wynne, that doesn't mean she didn't believe in the Maker. A Maker-believing mage is not an oxymoron.

As for Andraste merely having a Spirit Healer and mistaking it for the Maker, I think it's improbable. If someone like Wynne can tell the difference between a Spirit and the possible Maker, surely Andraste could as well. And Andraste had to be a mage first to act as a beacon for a spirit to seek her out. So it's quite improbable.

The fact that the miraculous power of Andraste's ashes being a sign from the Maker is a good enough explanation for me. But you are entitled to your opinion.

[Original182]

Darker_than_black wrote...
Yeah, and a few centuries later the Chantry lead an exalted march against the "blasphemous elves" because they refused to worship the maker. In so doing the Chantry destroyed the elven homeland of the Dales. Yeah, the Chantry folks are a nice and humble bunch. <_<

Ok, so the Chantry did bad things in the past. Why only bag the Chantry for it? The medieval times are rife with war. The Chantry isn't perfect, but neither is everyone else.
Throughout the game, the Chantry tries to help people, and enlists people like you for tasks (Chantry board) to help the general populace. They deserve the benefit of the doubt as much as say, apostates.

[FedericoV]

I support the lyrium theory.



Andraste's ashes are normal ashes turned in something magical because of lyrium contamination through the centuries. The spirit are the result of the contact betweeen the faithfull and the fade thanks to lyrium.



Lyrium was the reason why Andraste's follower get mad and begin to pray for the high dragon. Have you seen Kolgrim eyes? Mike Jagger at the beginning of the '70 was in better shape!



At the end I believe that Andreaste was really a mage and that The Maker was a spirit of the fade. Maybe a good spirit... or maybe an evil spirit (what if he was an Old God?).



All in all, for me the Chantry's teaching are full of historical fallacies.

[BlackLotus30]

Andraste started the whole Maker worshiping thing. As I recall before Andraste no one knew or even heard of the Maker, so if he was a god or if he really did exist why wait all that time to make himself known? Over the Millena(sp?) Thedas existed wouldn't there had been more Prophets in the histories of Thedas that came before Andraste?



Her ashes have healing properties that we can't deny that and the Guardian? I believe he was a mage too and now he exist partly in the fade and into the world like the arcane warrior spells....and it said that if you stay to long in the fade your body dies. and Aegis was said to be near invulnerable and now he's the Guardian....he stayed to long with the spell active...hence his current state. Alive but not and he can't really make himself solid again.

[cglasgow]

The Chantry's actions later on have no bearing on whether or not Andraste was actually inspired by the Maker, anymore than the Borgia Popes have any bearing on whether or not Jesus Christ actually existed. Any good religion can have evil followers later on down the centuries, this is a truism.



Me, the thing that convinces me about Andraste being real is the Guardian, and all the other ghosts I meet in the first gauntlet test. One spirit hanging around and believing in Andraste as a historical figure they actually hung out with, and watched the stories happen just like the Chant of Light says with their own two eyes, could be a guy with delusions who has, over the centuries, "rewritten" his memories to conform to his wishes.



But an entire group of them? All doing it in unison? Look, the thing about schizophrenic crazy is that its generally a one-off, and each new crazy has his own thing going on. The power of crazy generally doesn't do synchronized swimming events unless its a cult, but the crazy delusional cultists in this picture are the guys with dragon emblems further down the mountain.



Also, the spirits later on in the gauntlet? Of your dead dad, or your elven cousin, or Jowan, or what have you? Both they and the Guardian know waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much about your prior life and secrets.



Lyrium can explain a lot, but stretching lyrium to explain all this reaches the point where, IMO, assuming the existence of the Maker is actually the simpler solution.

[MassEffect762]

Don't they? You saw what they did for Arl Eamon. That Guardian sure did know alot about you and your companions, does the maker exist? Probably.



So much Maker denial, not the first time Bioware uses those words in their games.(I'm not even religious)



To some the chantry and the maker are "hogwash" but high dragons and old gods are A-Okay.



I don't get all the fuss hate over "the maker" in a friggin fantasy game.