227 réponses à ce sujet

[ZerebusPrime]

My beef with the thanix cannons is that I don't recall seeing any being fired in any of the cutscenes. The naval ordnance used instead appeared to be the same mix of mass effect rail guns and missile launchers that have been there since the first game. It's a lot easier to make the Reapers seem impervious and all powerful when all the shots fired at them vanish in the blink of an eye and every shot they return is a steady, lasting stream of destruction.

[Quietness]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Quietness wrote...

FTFY

Shush. I actually watched that entire ME1 space battle. The projectiles in ME1 look absolutely nothing like the projectiles from either the thanixized SR-2 or the normal SR-2. But those projectiles with the giant blue trails look exactly the same as the thanix shot from ME2, aside from the differences in camera angle and projectile travel distance. 

We'll ignore that they look exactly like the missles used in ME1

[CrutchCricket]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...
Out of curiosity, is your main problem with the ending the large inconsistencies introduced by the Catalyst in the last five minutes? Because this has the additional benefit of solving that problem nicely, even though it wasn't what I was testing for.

The holokid completely nullifies everything in the Mass Effect series within the span of 5 minutes.

Die hard protagonist that never quits even in the face of everything going against him? Nope he folds in all of 5 seconds.

Incomprehensible vast machines that while not exactly Cthulu are still completely alien in their purpose and intent? Nope, they're just oversized killbots.

3 games, 5 years= personalized choices for a journey that was your own with decisions that make a difference? Nope. Pick a color.

Honestly there have been hundreds if not thousands of walls of text describing how every single thing down to the smallest detail was just invalidated by this piece of **** ending. And there's probably still more left unsaid. I won't even try to reiterate even a quarter of it all. There's no point.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 17 avril 2012 - 06:30 .

[humes spork]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Those could all be cool to varying degrees. I think an RTS genre shift would also require a protagonist shift from Shepard to Hackett. The dialog choices thing sounds an awful lot like the ME2 Suicide Mission, which is what I think everyone was expecting.

Agreed. BW hadn't necessarily written themselves into a corner, but for the insistence on maintaining that damn Lovecraftian theme which, by any possible account, they'd eschewed pretty well the instant Sovereign engaged in dialogue with Shepard. The thanix cannon thing is just a misguided distillation of that argument, bordering on red herring if you ask me for what I said earlier.

The Thanix missles were a slap in the face really. I think the name was just slapped on there to let you know, "this **** kills Reapers". Which is even worse because it implies the writers knew what Thannix cannons meant but they chose to ignore that out of existence. 

Not necessarily. The point was driven pretty well home the thanix missiles absolutely, positively had to nail the destroyer in the beam emitter thing or else they wouldn't disable it. Which is pretty well consistent with what was established earlier in the game regarding fighting destroyers.

Thresher Maw Guns thanix missiles necessarily are not.

[v TricKy v]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...

Thanix cannons are as much of a contrived plot device as the crucible, and were only conceived to make the ship upgrade system in ME2 have a payoff.

An unbeatable super weapon on every ship was kind of a bad idea.

Yes. The people who complain about the giant killer plot device want thousands of tiny plot devices adding up to the same effect instead. I love how none of them ever respond to this point.

Have either of you paid attention to the previous games? The thannix cannons make perfect sense in game and within the lore. We killed Sovereign, we were able to study and replicate his gun. Makes perfect sense.

On the other hand let's suddenly dig up plans for some random alien device no one knew existed, which no one knows what it does. Let's build it and have it give us a stupid holokid with circular logic and three magic space beams.

Yeah they're totally the same...<_<

this
it seems illogical to invest in a COMPLETELY unknown device which no one knows if and how it works.
I made a thread to discuss that: 
http://social.biowar...ndex/11328758/1 

[CrutchCricket]

humes spork wrote...
Not necessarily. The point was driven pretty well home the thanix missiles absolutely, positively had to nail the destroyer in the beam emitter thing or else they wouldn't disable it. Which is pretty well consistent with what was established earlier in the game regarding fighting destroyers.

Thresher Maw Guns thanix missiles necessarily are not.

Yeah that was the weakpoint, attack it for massive damage. I'm not worried about that. THe point is there was no reason to call those missiles "Thannix" missiles apart from the association of that name as "Reaper B Gone". Which means they were aware of the concept but purposefully ignored it in the space battle. Which is a slap in the face.

[Orthodox Infidel]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...

Thanix cannons are as much of a contrived plot device as the crucible, and were only conceived to make the ship upgrade system in ME2 have a payoff.

An unbeatable super weapon on every ship was kind of a bad idea.

Yes. The people who complain about the giant killer plot device want thousands of tiny plot devices adding up to the same effect instead. I love how none of them ever respond to this point.

Have either of you paid attention to the previous games? The thannix cannons make perfect sense in game and within the lore. We killed Sovereign, we were able to study and replicate his gun. Makes perfect sense.

Aside from the fact that there are many more Reapers than thanix-equiped warships, even if thanix-equipped warships equals all warships, yes.

On the other hand let's suddenly dig up plans for some random alien device no one knew existed, which no one knows what it does. Let's build it and have it give us a stupid holokid with circular logic and three magic space beams.

Yeah they're totally the same...<_<

Right, it's a lame plot device, but it's still a plot device. Most people's main complaint about the Crucible is that it's Reaper Defeat by Plot Device, rather than by Shepard doing something heroic.  At least with the Crucible, there's something for Shepard to do that really only he can do; he's got the cipher, so he can talk to Vendetta and get the necessary information to complete the thing. "Give everyone thanix cannons" doesn't leave Shepard with anything to do that couldn't be done by anyone else, besides maybe Geth-Quarian peace.

[Kuari999]

Anyways, my silly trolling aside, the Thanix cannons are probably why 3 alliance dreadnaughts could take on a dreadnaught class Reaper suddenly when it took everything against Sovereign and it still wasn't good enough.

Doesn't mean they didn't do a crap job of visualizing it though.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Quietness wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Quietness wrote...

FTFY

Shush. I actually watched that entire ME1 space battle. The projectiles in ME1 look absolutely nothing like the projectiles from either the thanixized SR-2 or the normal SR-2. But those projectiles with the giant blue trails look exactly the same as the thanix shot from ME2, aside from the differences in camera angle and projectile travel distance. 

We'll ignore that they look exactly like the missles used in ME1

Except we don't see any "missles" in ME2, or ME3 until we hit the ground.

[Jamanticarius]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...
 "Give everyone thanix cannons" doesn't leave Shepard with anything to do that couldn't be done by anyone else, besides maybe Geth-Quarian peace.

Don't forget the epic mission series that would also ensue in that plot...  Re-introduction of planet scanning so they've got enough materials for em!  Over 50 hours of exciting scanning!

[Orthodox Infidel]

CrutchCricket wrote what he doesn't like about the ending.

Ok, you and I have the same main problem with the ending, which is basically that everything gets flushed down the toilet in the last five minutes. But I think many people who don't like the ending will also not find the hypothetical alternative I created satisfying, for other reasons. I'll let them volunteer those reasons themselves.

[SNESwiggum]

These debates that use the codex as the main point of argument always annoy me because majority don't know the codex or some cherry pick stuff to make their point while ignoring other valid information.

The Thanix Cannon- The thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromegnetic field powered by element zero. The molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to pierce any known shield or armor. The gun can fire reliably every five seconds. The weapons relatively small size allows it to be mounted on most fighters or frigates.

Reaper Capabilities- The main gun on a reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the alliance's everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give reaper weapons a longer effective range than organic's dreadnoughts or cruisers.

The kinetic barriers on a reaper capital ship can shrug off the firepower of a small fleet. Weapons specifically designed to overcome shields, such as the javelin, GAURDIAN lasers, or the thanix series, can bypass the barriers to some degree. The difficulty is getting close enough to use them-- the surface-mounted weaponry on reaper ships, similar in principal to GAURDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species fighters.

Reaper Vulnerabilities- Although clearly technologically superior to the citadel forces, the reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the reapers could be defeated.

Reapers rely on kinetic barriers. In the case of a reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the thanix series, show better results against the reapers than pure kinetic impacts.

The barriers of reaper destroyers are less formidable than those of capital ships. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within the range before they are themselves destroyed.

Reaper capital ships can turn faster than citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a captal ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against reapers flying in proper formation.

That is all the relevant information I could find in the mass effect 3 codex regarding the thanix cannon and other things brought up in this threads topic of conversation. I might have missed some stuff and if i come across any I will add it in.

Basically the conclusion I come to is that yes the thanix cannon is a more capable weapon against the reapers than traditional kinetic weapons. But by no means is it some super weapon capable of kicking the crap out of the reapers like some tend to believe.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Kuari999 wrote...

Anyways, my silly trolling aside, the Thanix cannons are probably why 3 alliance dreadnaughts could take on a dreadnaught class Reaper suddenly when it took everything against Sovereign and it still wasn't good enough.

Doesn't mean they didn't do a crap job of visualizing it though.

Right. I totally agree that this debate is proof that they did a crap job of visualizing that. And the ambiguity about what happens in the end is pretty much all them doing a crap job there as well, aside from any part where LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE! was deliberately planned. Because their unofficial statements clearly indicate that the devs were genuinely suprised the fanbase thought that giant supernovas happened in every relay-containing system.

[humes spork]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Most people's main complaint about the Crucible is that it's Reaper Defeat by Plot Device, rather than by Shepard doing something heroic.  At least with the Crucible, there's something for Shepard to do that really only he can do; he's got the cipher, so he can talk to Vendetta and get the necessary information to complete the thing. "Give everyone thanix cannons" doesn't leave Shepard with anything to do that couldn't be done by anyone else, besides maybe Geth-Quarian peace.

Let's not get started on the "only someone with the Cipher can access Vendetta" discussion. Personally, I think that's just about one of the dumber things in the context of a game that's chock-full of a lot of incomprehensibly dumb things, no small number of which occur in the ten minutes immediately following Vendetta's appearance.

Not saying it's necessarily bad, just dumb. Mass Effect, after all, is a love letter to the cheesy science fiction we grew up with and it would be missing the mark if it didn't have dumb stuff.

But anyhow, the thing is Shepard does a ton of heroic stuff in the course of the game...it only happens to be, at best, indirectly related to the Crucible. Where Shepard's heroism and actions come into play is unifying the galaxy, which while at the forefront of the game's plot and developments takes the backseat to the subplot during the climax. It's just, off storytelling that while answering the dramatic question of the trilogy underscores the dramatic question of the final installment.

Compare it to Return of the Jedi if you have to, in which the dramatic question of that film taken on its own is whether Luke falls to the dark side or redeems Anakin. That's blended perfectly with the answer to the trilogy's dramatic question -- whether the rebellion defeats the empire -- by having a multilayered climax in which both plots receive equal time and consideration and are unified.

Modifié par humes spork, 17 avril 2012 - 06:58 .

[Kyle Dei]

I'd like to point out that the 'Large blue tracer rounds' at the start of the fleet battle could have in fact been Thanix Missiles, not cannons. The evidence is in the impact on the Reaper. It explodes ONCE, it doesn't continue to explode or burn through like the Thanix Cannon shows in ME2.

You will also see smaller 'white' rounds impacting as the Reaper flies off screen, these would be the standard and not Thanix, the evidence is in ME1 during the battle with Sovereign.

The rounds used by the fighters do not appear to be Thanix either, as they fire relatively faster than 5 second intervals and more like bursts. Not long after a Reaper fires and strikes an Alliance vessel, the vessel keeps on moving.

This is all at the start of the battle, with evidence to an Alliance Ship firing virtually point blank into a Reaper using a standard Kinetic round. The evidence? There is NO blue trace between the ship and it's target. This would have been the perfect time to fire a Thanix Cannon right?

Edit: Just to add, a picture from earlier showing a Thanix Cannon actually fire? Yeah you may want to go and WATCH the video because it was the Normandy that fired as it broke off.

Modifié par Kyle Dei, 17 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[CrutchCricket]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...
Aside from the fact that there are many more Reapers than thanix-equiped warships, even if thanix-equipped warships equals all warships, yes.

And? We saw what two blasts of a Thannix did to the Collector ship. Granted Reapers themselves would maybe have a more resistant alloy. But with a Thannix on every ship, Reapers should still go down easier, particularly if they concentrate fire. Based on what we know we should be able to completely eradicate them in some systems through conventional means.

Of course our ships are really glass cannons. With the Thannix they can pack a punch but they go down easy too. So the war may not be winnable this way as we simply don't have enough ships, but a few battles should be no problem.

Right, it's a lame plot device, but it's still a plot device. Most people's main complaint about the Crucible is that it's Reaper Defeat by Plot Device, rather than by Shepard doing something heroic.  At least with the Crucible, there's something for Shepard to do that really only he can do; he's got the cipher, so he can talk to Vendetta and get the necessary information to complete the thing. "Give everyone thanix cannons" doesn't leave Shepard with anything to do that couldn't be done by anyone else, besides maybe Geth-Quarian peace.

I know this was dealt with before but I guess you're not acknowledging it. Shepard united the entire galaxy. It's not just the geth and quarians it's everybody. You call that doing nothing simply because he's not the one personally executing every Reaper at the end? No he's already struck the biggest blow. The Reapers don't face separated species of chumps taken by surprise. The entirety of galactic civilization has been forged into a cohesive weapon being swung in their face.

**** you want "artistic" look no further: As the combined might of the fleets charge towards the Reapers a stray shot hits the Normady, destroying it. Shepard is ejected in space once again. As he watches the battle he sees geth and quarian ships teaming up against the Reapers. He sees asari, turians, salarians, humans all working as one. And he sees them slowly start to turn the tide. And as death takes him, he smiles. This is the real crucible. The Reapers provide all the heat and pressure you'll ever need. And it took an iron will to forge this unity. But now that it's done, this is what will see them through. Shepard emodied an ideal, he was a symbol. But they have no need for him any more. The ideal is in each of them. His work is done. The rest is silence...

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 17 avril 2012 - 07:14 .

[Orthodox Infidel]

CrutchCricket wrote...

I know this was dealt with before but I guess you're not acknowledging it. Shepard united the entire galaxy. It's not just the geth and quarians it's everybody. You call that doing nothing simply because he's not the one personally executing every Reaper at the end? No he's already struck the biggest blow. The Reapers don't face separated species of chumps taken by surprise. The entirety of galactic civilization has been forged into a cohesive weapon being swung in their face.

My point is that, if you throw away the Crucible, you could also replace Shepard with Admiral Hackett and teams of generic Alliance marines and get the same outcome. So, the Player Shepard is not special, when it's a theme of the trilogy that the Player Shepard is special and we can't do it without them.

[CrutchCricket]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...
My point is that, if you throw away the Crucible, you could also replace Shepard with Admiral Hackett and teams of generic Alliance marines and get the same outcome. So, the Player Shepard is not special, when it's a theme of the trilogy that the Player Shepard is special and we can't do it without them.

If Hackett could've done all that we would be playing as him. The point is someone brought all these species together and that person is the hero of the story. The details are just that, details. If that's not special, I don't know what is. And I don't see how the Crucible makes Shepard special anyway. Can't Hackett pick a color instead?

[SCJ90]

I dont know if we are still talking about cannons..... but.... the Allianse is still military right? so their must be like 1000 Thanix cannons out there, they are just in storage and have not been deployd yet! Just like the modern day military! (At least in my country, we could not arm our soliders even if the world depended on it )

[sp0ck 06]

Wish we would have gotten to see the Normandy fire its weapon at least once.

I feel like that part is one of the most beloved in ME2, seems strange the Normandy wouldn't fire a single shot in the course of ME3

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

Always a good idea to start a thread by telling people you disagree with to shut up. Only the most constructive comments begin that way. I assure you, this has caused me to take your opinion much more seriously.

Useless thread is indeed useless.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

Always a good idea to start a thread by telling people you disagree with to shut up. Only the most constructive comments begin that way. I assure you, this has caused me to take your opinion much more seriously.

Useless thread is indeed useless.

Cry me a river.

[MakeMineMako]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Militarized wrote...

I think the problem was they didn't represent the Thannix Cannons properly in the fleet. >.>.

That's the problem that sane people have. If that's your only problem then by all means continue complaining about how Bioware failed to properly reflect the strength of the combined forces in Mass Effect 3's cutscenes.

If, on the other hand, you want lots of small plot devices to take the place of one giant plot device, then my post applies.

Improvements in weapons technology to even the odds a bit isn't even in the same ball park. 

The Giant Space Vibrator (aka Crucible) is nothing more than a big asspull. It's too convienent. It wasn' really foreshadowed. And who the hell throws resources into building something that nobody knows will even work, much less what the hell it actually DOES. Especially, when so much is at stake.

Nothing about the damned Crucible makes any sense in the story. It's a Rube Goldberg device that represents shoddy writing and lack of innovative ideas by the developers.

[ticklefist]

Number of ally ships outfitted with Thanix cannons = 1 gazillion
Number of ally ships actually using their Thanix cannons = 0

[ev76]

Thanix cannons are the best.