421 réponses à ce sujet

[im commander shep]

If we forget about Indoctrination Theory and the ending for the moment.

Thoughout the game we are given lots of hints that shepard is being indoctrinated/ attempts at indoctrination (the dreams inparticular). Other than at the end and the set piece with TIM and anderson where shepard maybe under indoctrinated control from TIM.

If we take the endings as they are nothing ever comes of this indoctrination its just forgotten about even though as the game progresses it appears the indoctrination is getting stronger and stronger. Is there any pay off from the indoctrination or was that all removed as mentioned in the ME3 final hours app.

There does not seem to be any point to the indoctrination references now, (maybe artistic/dramatic effect).

[im commander shep]

bump

[BobbyDylan]

It's a popular opinion, but there's far from consenus on the matter. Some people (not me) out there really enjoy the endings at face value. The IT (while making a lot of sense IMHO) serves more as a coping mechanism for the crappy ending then a likely intention of the writers.

[dreman9999]

If people understand all 3 games are one plot, the prosses of indoctrination, pay attention, and foreshadowing...Yes.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 08:03 .

[dreman9999]

BobbyDylan wrote...

It's a popular opinion, but there's far from consenus on the matter. Some people (not me) out there really enjoy the endings at face value. The IT (while making a lot of sense IMHO) serves more as a coping mechanism for the crappy ending then a likely intention of the writers.

It's not a coping mechanism...Most people like it because it makes sense. It's logical.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 08:00 .

[im commander shep]

BobbyDylan wrote...

It's a popular opinion, but there's far from consenus on the matter. Some people (not me) out there really enjoy the endings at face value. The IT (while making a lot of sense IMHO) serves more as a coping mechanism for the crappy ending then a likely intention of the writers.

If we ignore the ending and IT take it at face value, shepard is being indoctrinated but nothing seems to come of it. That i can see anyway.

[Ieldra]

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

[Inutaisho7996]

dreman9999 wrote...

BobbyDylan wrote...

It's a popular opinion, but there's far from consenus on the matter. Some people (not me) out there really enjoy the endings at face value. The IT (while making a lot of sense IMHO) serves more as a coping mechanism for the crappy ending then a likely intention of the writers.

It's not a coping mechanism...Most people like it because it makes sense. It's logical.

No, it's a coping mechanism, and it only makes sense because people want it too.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

It's not agreed in the least I hate this theory honestly and the dream has already been disproved logically. Not to mention everyone who ever became a member of Shepard's crew or squad apparently couldn't be indoctrinated so either every squad member/crew member Shepard ever had was made up. Or Shepard is just weaker willed than people who were going through worse issues (ie Wrex and the death of his entire race through a genocidal DNA assaulting disease)

[paul165]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

This. The evidence for IT is circumstantial at best and word of god strongly suggests the endings are to be taken literally.

[IanPolaris]

I believe (per the Final Apps) that there was supposed to be a "Shepard indoctrinated" subplot that got axed because of technical issues. I tend to believe this because the hints of possible indoctrination attempts throughout the game are too pervasive to be an accident.

In short, I think something like the IT was intended but dropped very late in developement.

-Polaris

[dreman9999]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

What did TIm use? Because if it's domination then...
 
....That power doesn't work that way...

[dreman9999]

paul165 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

This. The evidence for IT is circumstantial at best and word of god strongly suggests the endings are to be taken literally.

Before you start with the arguement of Circumstancal... You need to understand the facts first before arguing...

fact 1. People are
indoctrinated by being near reapers and reaper tech. 

fact 2. People that
at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.

Fact 3.Shepard is
near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.

Fact 4. Shepard is
hit by an indoctrination field in the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions
and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

fact5.Indoctrination does not just go
away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis



'If Rana survived
Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2, she will appear in an ANN Report on
indoctrination. She has apparently murdered several top asari officials and
then committed suicide. While in custody, Thanoptis reported "voices"
in her head (a typical symptom of indoctrination) to investigators."



Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate
dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s

The reseachers on project rho in Arrival also taked about strange dreams  when they were being indoctrinated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL48B6A3172825B65F&feature=player_detailpage&v=CAstYTITiTw#t=249s 

Fact 7. Reapers can indoctrinatewith quantum intanglement.http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Arrival:_The_Reapers'_Secrets 
"The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches intoc territoryAnother broadcast is infrasound, consistent with frequencies that trigger feelings of awe and fear in&nbsp], a known factor in Reaperindoctrination. Kenson's laboratory is filled with equipment dedicated to monitoring any signal coming from the artifact in the hopes that some clue will prove the Reapers' undoing before it's too late. "

Fact8. You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related 
.....
Really, all that is a concidence.

[Meltemph]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

While I dont beleive BW put much thought in it...would be ncie if they did, but anywho, Shep was hit by an indoctrination device.  The same kind of indoctrination device that TIM was hit by.  So unless Shep is magical...  Shep should have been fighting it as well.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

What did TIm use? Because if it's domination then...
 
....That power doesn't work that way...

You are aware that TIM didn't so much study indoctrination as he studied the work of the nanobots responsible for the cybernetic changes in people yes he called it indoctrination but the entire sanctuary level is based of the nanobots that change asari into banshee human to husk etc. 

But hey think what you want. 

[dreman9999]

IanPolaris wrote...

I believe (per the Final Apps) that there was supposed to be a "Shepard indoctrinated" subplot that got axed because of technical issues. I tend to believe this because the hints of possible indoctrination attempts throughout the game are too pervasive to be an accident.

In short, I think something like the IT was intended but dropped very late in developement.

-Polaris

You know that only states it was dropped as a gameplay element, not a story element.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 08:21 .

[dreman9999]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

What did TIm use? Because if it's domination then...
 
....That power doesn't work that way...

You are aware that TIM didn't so much study indoctrination as he studied the work of the nanobots responsible for the cybernetic changes in people yes he called it indoctrination but the entire sanctuary level is based of the nanobots that change asari into banshee human to husk etc. 

But hey think what you want. 

That well a good for controling Shepard...But Anderson as well?  How? and don't start with saying TIM had less control over Anderson..... With Shepard shooting TIM, that makes no sense.

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

What did TIm use? Because if it's domination then...
 
....That power doesn't work that way...

As long as you will keep acting like jerks towards anyone who differs from your opinions, you will just make fools of yourselves.  Instead of trying to win a point by repeating it a million times over, I suggest you do a little research outside IT about explosions in space, facts about the Citadel, it's construction and different areas, the sheer lack of coherent scale in the cutscenes, the zillion minute details that most IT supporters conveniently ignore in order to keep coping in a closed environment, outside of reason.

[Sweawm]

Hey, when it comes to Indoctrination Theory: "Ignorance is bliss" right?

Let's all just believe that the ending wasn't as stupid as we thought it to be and act like it was intended the entire time. Way better that continuing to go over the stupid ending again and again, trying to at least justify it.

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

What did TIm use? Because if it's domination then...
 
....That power doesn't work that way...

As long as you will keep acting like jerks towards anyone who differs from your opinions, you will just make fools of yourselves.  Instead of trying to win a point by repeating it a million times over, I suggest you do a little research outside IT about explosions in space, facts about the Citadel, it's construction and different areas, the sheer lack of coherent scale in the cutscenes, the zillion minute details that most IT supporters conveniently ignore in order to keep coping in a closed environment, outside of reason.

I'm no being ajerk to anyone with a different opinion...I have yet to call anyone names or belittle any one. I'm just showing people the holes in what they think happened. I really does't make sense. They are just assumption with no real facts. True, there is no hard proof say Shep is indoctinated, but there is fact that supports it. So really, TIM who just got Biotic powers is suddenly going to be using it at an high advanced level just because he learnt how to cut the connecting to husk and have Cerberus do it...And he can do it  to normal people, too fast then a Reaper can?
 

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 08:30 .

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

Before you start with the arguement of Circumstancal... You need to understand the facts first before arguing...

fact 1. People are
indoctrinated by being near reapers and reaper tech. 

fact 2. People that
at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.

Fact 3.Shepard is
near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.

Fact 4. Shepard is
hit by an indoctrination field in the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions
and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

fact5.Indoctrination does not just go
away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis

Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate
dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s

Fact 7. Reapers can indoctrinatewith quantum intanglement.

Fact8. You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related 
.....
Really, all that is a concidence.

fact 1: ...for an extended period of time. Shiala and Beneziah both described it as a slow progress, where you slowly want to trust Saren/Sovereign before you actually start to hear voices.

fact 2: at what stage of the Indoctrination? I'd think it was pretty much the End, where the Reapers almost completely control you.

fact 3: for a short time frame. And your Squadmembers (Garrus, Tali) were as well. But apparently they aren't affected.

fact 4: indoctrination field? Sorry, but that's not a fact, it's speculation. It could be just an energy wave (Mass Effect Field). Kenson was being controlled by Harbinger (assuming direct control) is another way to see that scene.

fact 5: Assumption. We never learn when exactly Rana became indoctrinated. There were at least 6 Months between ME2 and 3. Who knows what she has been up to in that time.

fact 6: After some time, yes. The Cerberus Agents had been working on the derelict Reaper for a while before their dreams were influenced.

fact 7: Yes, so?

fact 8: I sometimes hear whispers in my Nightmares as well

Also: At no Point do we actually "hear" something new. The Whispers in the dream are things that have been said to Shepard. The Reapers should try to influence Shepard, push him/her in a certain way. The dreams don't have any influence on the way the Game is going. No ancient tablet that only Shepard can translate.....

[Suikoden]

BobbyDylan wrote...

It's a popular opinion, but there's far from consenus on the matter. Some people (not me) out there really enjoy the endings at face value. The IT (while making a lot of sense IMHO) serves more as a coping mechanism for the crappy ending then a likely intention of the writers.

I think taking the ending at face-value and refusing to believe in the plausibility of the IT is actually a coping mechanism for those that are too proud/egotisical to admit that Bioware indoctrinated them into making the wrong choice in the game regarding the "best" ending where Shepard lives.

Just my opinion, but I'd say that it's much easier for these people to call the writing "crappy" than to admit they were duped by a videogame.

[The Protheans]

Yes he was Indoctrinated.

[Iconoclaste]

Here comes the Indoc Trolling collective, grasping at straws when not insulting debaters on their own threads. Normal players are just too stupid to understand the endings, is that so?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 avril 2012 - 08:35 .

[IanPolaris]

dreman9999 wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

What did TIm use? Because if it's domination then...
 
....That power doesn't work that way...

You are aware that TIM didn't so much study indoctrination as he studied the work of the nanobots responsible for the cybernetic changes in people yes he called it indoctrination but the entire sanctuary level is based of the nanobots that change asari into banshee human to husk etc. 

But hey think what you want. 

That well a good for controling Shepard...But Anderson as well?  How? and don't start with saying TIM had less control over Anderson..... With Shepard shooting TIM, that makes no sense.

The arguement from IT (and I think it's a good one) is that Anderson (and possibly the Illusive Man) aren't actually there.  What you are seeing is a conflict being waged in Shepard's own mind with Anderson and TIM reflecting avators of parts of shepard's own mind.  In such a case TIM (representing Reaper indoctrination) could easily be able to affect both...because it's all within a single person.

-Polaris