421 réponses à ce sujet

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

thinicer wrote...

I don't know which is worse to be honest with you: the actual endings we got, or the idea that all of it was some indoctrinated hallucination. The actual endings were examples of lazy writing and game development, and the IT assumes the developers were trying to trick us and be clever.

So how is the IT any better? It still results in a highly unsatisfying ending to a memorable story. The only reason the IT gained traction was because desperate fanboys, upset over the endings, tried desperately make sense out of them by looking for things that aren't actually there and evident. The IT presumes that, eventually, Bioware will release new and totally different endings to the game. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people.

It's not going to happen, and Bioware has already come out and said that the endings are going to stand. Time to let it go.

Again, nice eveidence you have presented.

They have evidence... The part where Bioware said the endings weren't changing from what they are.

Right, just "extending" and "clarifying" 

...I do believe that Bioware mean exactly what they said with this, but I can't resist a wink.

They sure shot down IT at PAX...After what they said, no way can someone be confused to that that IT IS FALSE....They so clear stated it's not real after how they made it bluntly clearthat it's not real.....
.../sarcasum

They probably didn't say anything because they have better things to focus on atm than dealing with the sh*tstorm that would occur if they said it wasn't true.

Plus, theres no saying that the extended dlc will be enough to completely disprove IT... Some theorists will still find ways to hold onto it after the clarification.

Not denying =/= Admitting

[dreman9999]

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

thinicer wrote...

I don't know which is worse to be honest with you: the actual endings we got, or the idea that all of it was some indoctrinated hallucination. The actual endings were examples of lazy writing and game development, and the IT assumes the developers were trying to trick us and be clever.

So how is the IT any better? It still results in a highly unsatisfying ending to a memorable story. The only reason the IT gained traction was because desperate fanboys, upset over the endings, tried desperately make sense out of them by looking for things that aren't actually there and evident. The IT presumes that, eventually, Bioware will release new and totally different endings to the game. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people.

It's not going to happen, and Bioware has already come out and said that the endings are going to stand. Time to let it go.

Again, nice eveidence you have presented.

They have evidence... The part where Bioware said the endings weren't changing from what they are.

Right, just "extending" and "clarifying" 

If the indoctrination theory is true then we need a new showdown with TIM, along with extra content and gameplay since the war is not over.

Bioware has said that they will only extend on the current ending, if IT is true then it is a completely new and different ending.

If IT IS TRUE, bw DON'T NEED TO CHANGE THE CURRENT ENDING...tHEY JUST NEED TO ADD THING ON TO IT.

If IT is true then we will have to beat the Reapers a different way, likely with different end choices. Meaning that we will have a new different ending than the one we had.

No..If IT is true, it would mean that they still have the crucible to use and they have to find away inside the citadeal to use it still. Nothing in IT stated the crucible can't be used.

[thinicer]

IT can also makes the presumption that there is only ONE, TRUE choice at the end of the game, which is Destroy. Am I wrong on this? The presumption is that with Control and Synthesis, Shepard is indoctrinated and does what the Reapers want, whereas with Destroy he breaks free of indoctrination, so gamers are limited to only one choice if they truly want to win the game and end the threat of the Reapers once and for all. How is this any better? Very restrictive.

Also, if Synthesis and Control are the indoctrinated choices, then how come they are only obtained if your EMS is high enough? So more EMS means more indoctrination?

If all three color endings are truly hallucinations, then that means we still haven't gotten the TRUE endings, meaning that the IT needs completely different endings that fall outside of the three color choices. Bioware they have already come out and said that the existing endings will stand and they are proud of them and that they will just be expanded upon so that more of your war assets will show, more closure for your squadmates, epilogues, with some other questions answered.

It's pretty cut and dry that IT is dead.

[balance5050]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]If IT IS TRUE, bw DON'T NEED TO CHANGE THE CURRENT ENDING...tHEY JUST NEED TO ADD THING ON TO IT.

Yes a completely new ending where we defeat the reapers.

Also, I'll bet someone who picked Synthesis or Control and was happy with it will view thet "addition" of IT as a change to their ending.

IT changes the _meaning_ of the ending and Bioware has commited to not doing that. they just want to avoid driving the IT'ers into the arms of RetakeME for as long as they can.

I ike how you guys still believe what they say when they have clearly fed you false info in the past.

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Huskification is just another method of inodctrination. Saren was partially huskified, and it deepened his level of indoctrination. Don't you remember? Saren started having doubts after Vermire, so Sovereign had him implanted and then all of a sudden he stopped doubting again.

I remember just fine, you have decided that huskification and implantation are the same thing. Accept that you have no proof they are the same and that I disagree. You have also decided that huskification and indoctrination are the same, they are not (according to the codex, that's why they have seperate entries and are described in different ways) 

You are not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you. However I accept you have your view on it. How about you accept that there are other views, and that those views weaken IT.

Saren who's been implanted becomes becomes more deeply indoctrinated. The implants make it easier. With the husks, they do all with the indoctrination with via the implants.

Here's another thing from the collector base (concerning implants [responsible for the partial huskification that was mentioned]):
Cerberus Scientist: The Performance upgrades are off the charts. Our troops can outfight any Alliance soldier
TIM: Roll it out. I want all troopers fit with implants before the reapers arrive.
CS: I'm still concerned about us losing control of our forces. Some are already hearing voices (huskification is indoctrination)
TIM: When our work at Sanctuary pays off, the only voices they'll be hearing is ours.

Followed by:
CS: Sir, you wanted my opinion on this. It's too dangerous.
TIM: No. We're close. Sanctuary 
(where they were studying indoctrination)  was a success. We can control Reaper forces (remember, soon the only voice they'll be hearing is ours. He's able to use the indoctrination, and override the reaper control signals). Everything we've been fighting for, every sacrifice we've made: It's about to pay off.
etc.

The synthetic parts introduced in huskification serve to receive the reaper EM signals, which cause indoctrination and allow the reapers (and now TIM) to control them remotely.

The 2 different terms are given to 2 faces of the same thing. The huskification allows it to happen pretty damn quickly.

Shepard is not a husk. If indoctrination and huskificaiton weren't so linked, then why would TIM be able to use husk specific technology (which it must be if indoctrination and huskification are completely separate) to control Shepard? He would still have to be using indoctrination to manipulate Shepard.

[balance5050]

 IT is an interpretation that will never die:devil:

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

thinicer wrote...

I don't know which is worse to be honest with you: the actual endings we got, or the idea that all of it was some indoctrinated hallucination. The actual endings were examples of lazy writing and game development, and the IT assumes the developers were trying to trick us and be clever.

So how is the IT any better? It still results in a highly unsatisfying ending to a memorable story. The only reason the IT gained traction was because desperate fanboys, upset over the endings, tried desperately make sense out of them by looking for things that aren't actually there and evident. The IT presumes that, eventually, Bioware will release new and totally different endings to the game. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people.

It's not going to happen, and Bioware has already come out and said that the endings are going to stand. Time to let it go.

Again, nice eveidence you have presented.

They have evidence... The part where Bioware said the endings weren't changing from what they are.

Right, just "extending" and "clarifying" 

...I do believe that Bioware mean exactly what they said with this, but I can't resist a wink.

They sure shot down IT at PAX...After what they said, no way can someone be confused to that that IT IS FALSE....They so clear stated it's not real after how they made it bluntly clearthat it's not real.....
.../sarcasum

They probably didn't say anything because they have better things to focus on atm than dealing with the sh*tstorm that would occur if they said it wasn't true.

Plus, theres no saying that the extended dlc will be enough to completely disprove IT... Some theorists will still find ways to hold onto it after the clarification.

Not denying =/= Admitting

Who say I'm say the fact that they would make a comment on it, it means it''s real. I just stay they have stated it false yet.
And BW has alreay cut down every false romour about ME3...Remeber the terminator dlc romour?

[Chuvvy]

Shepard was meant to be indoctrinated, they scrapped it because they couldn't get some mechanic to work right, then gave us the ending we saw, which was the virtual equivalent of a back alley organ donor.

[dreman9999]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
]If IT IS TRUE, bw DON'T NEED TO CHANGE THE CURRENT ENDING...tHEY JUST NEED TO ADD THING ON TO IT.

Yes a completely new ending where we defeat the reapers.

Also, I'll bet someone who picked Synthesis or Control and was happy with it will view thet "addition" of IT as a change to their ending.

IT changes the _meaning_ of the ending and Bioware has commited to not doing that. they just want to avoid driving the IT'ers into the arms of RetakeME for as long as they can.

That's not a new ening..That just adding on to what is there. It would only be a new ending if changes are made.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

dreman9999 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
If IT is true then we will have to beat the Reapers a different way, likely with different end choices. Meaning that we will have a new different ending than the one we had.

No..If IT is true, it would mean that they still have the crucible to use and they have to find away inside the citadeal to use it still. Nothing in IT stated the crucible can't be used.

So the IT will have Shepard wake up, go onto the Citadel and activate the crucible and win the war.

In short, an exact repeat of the dream sequence minus the choices in the end....

[KingZayd]

BouncyCaitian wrote...

and as the Devils Advocate.....who's to say that 'starkid' wasn't lying

Take this as an Idea. Catalyst was a perceptual fail safe built in by the Reapers to activate when the various organics and synthetics technologies rose to the point of being a true threat. Instead of the Brute force indoctrination that we are familiar with.

It takes the far more subtle approach of showing things which are of value at a very low level to particularly resistant resistors, showing very instinctual cues to the subject to break their will, while the basic indoctrination is still at work. I could see the reapers developing such a thing to corrupt and break particularly willful holdouts. They've been doing this for some time and might have run into such capabilities before.

Shepard might have been one of the first that ran into the contingency, and thus it wasn't quite adapted to Shepard's personality, thus leading to some of the nonsensical weirdness.

just my two cents

i thought it was a manipulation quite a while before i discovered indoc theory. What the starchild says doesn't make sense, and the only reason for it to probe your mind and select the image of the dead child who has been haunting your nightmares is to exploit your emotional vulnerabilities. Just think.. how different would people have chosen if it had appeared as StarSovereign rather than Starchild?

[balance5050]

balance5050 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
The evidence is that he wakes up amongst concrete rubble after just being in the middle of this:

The Presidium uses concrete, the cables, in the breath scene are identical to the cables in the processing room below Shepard, the explosion you show dies down _in the same video_ and shows the Citadel tower and the Presidium ring intact. Conclusion: Shepard was blown down the hole into the body of the Citadel tower by the initial little boom and shielded from the big band by the body of the Citadel.
- not proof

balance5050 wrote.. 
Also, the white light "dream transition effect is very telling that the ending could be a combination of a dream and being somehow mentally linked to some reaper somehow.

Generic whiteout FX reuse, perfectly normal in game development (notice how Shep keeps changing weapon during cutscenes, it's because its easier and quicker)
-not proof

balance5050 wrote..  
Also, look at Shepards eyes when he chooses either control or synthesize

So? Edi has the same eye structure, TIM has had those implants for ages we have no reason to assume they mean anything. Unless you've already bought into the IT bandwagon. Hence, its proof because of other stuff we say is proof
-not proof

How did Shep get to the Presidium? 
If it's cable it has its own associations tied to it. They are NOT only found on the citadel. They are ubiquitous where there are reapers, its possible there aren't any on the route to the beam, but you weren't actually wearing those N7 tags while talking to the catalyst.

That "white effect" is a "dream transition" always used in 3's;);)

When Shep is renegade we see that his eye patterns are different from TIM's, the dots are inverted. EDI's eye's are different as well becaused they dont have the "blue glow" detail.

And guess what, those eyes AREN'T implants, he got them from reaper tech^_^

[mad825]

For the IT to work, the whole game may need to rewritten. I'lll point it out again, the Prothean VI on Thessia detected no indoctrination from Shepard and for it to happen afterwards is far too much of a coincidence. A "switch" like device to indoctrinate would be almost like deus ex machina .

[balance5050]

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
If IT is true then we will have to beat the Reapers a different way, likely with different end choices. Meaning that we will have a new different ending than the one we had.

No..If IT is true, it would mean that they still have the crucible to use and they have to find away inside the citadeal to use it still. Nothing in IT stated the crucible can't be used.

So the IT will have Shepard wake up, go onto the Citadel and activate the crucible and win the war.

In short, an exact repeat of the dream sequence minus the choices in the end....

Yeah if the writers have no imagination;)

[balance5050]

mad825 wrote...

For the IT to work, the whole game may need to rewritten. I'lll point it out again, the Prothean VI on Thessia detected no indoctrination from Shepard and for it to happen afterwards is far too much of a coincidence. A "switch" like device to indoctrinate would be almost like deus ex machina .

Shepard wasn't indoctrnated yet.

[dreman9999]

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
If IT is true then we will have to beat the Reapers a different way, likely with different end choices. Meaning that we will have a new different ending than the one we had.

No..If IT is true, it would mean that they still have the crucible to use and they have to find away inside the citadeal to use it still. Nothing in IT stated the crucible can't be used.

So the IT will have Shepard wake up, go onto the Citadel and activate the crucible and win the war.

In short, an exact repeat of the dream sequence minus the choices in the end....

Or Shep waking up as a reaper sleeper agent.. But ya, basicly that can be an option. and no starchild to meet in the real citadel.

[DiebytheSword]

I'm not sure IT is 100% correct, but I think it's on to something. To wit, the reapers are clearly in Shepard's head twice, once to force him to shoot Anderson (and the whole showdown with TIM), and a second time to pull out the visage of the kid, who was clearly pulled from his/her nightmares.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 17 avril 2012 - 04:12 .

[Mobius-Silent]

balance5050 wrote...
How did Shep get to the Presidium? 

My point is that "space concrete" is in use on the citadel. Directly below the "secret" processing rooms are the council offices, plently of opportunity for non-citadel room structure there.

balance5050 wrote... 

If it's cable it has its own associations tied to it. They are NOT only found on the citadel. They are ubiquitous where there are reapers, its possible there aren't any on the route to the beam, but you weren't actually wearing those N7 tags while talking to the catalyst.

 

Not only, no but the Citadel tower was _right_ below him, whereas you're constructing a huge dream-fabrication to support your case.

balance5050 wrote...   
That "white effect" is a "dream transition" always used in 3's;);)

So you say. I disagree, you could just as easiely say its a transition from/to unconciousness.

balance5050 wrote.. 
When Shep is renegade we see that his eye patterns are different from TIM's, the dots are inverted. EDI's eye's are different as well becaused they dont have the "blue glow" detail.
And guess what, those eyes AREN'T implants, he got them from reaper tech^_^

So you say. [citation needed]

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

balance5050 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
If IT is true then we will have to beat the Reapers a different way, likely with different end choices. Meaning that we will have a new different ending than the one we had.

No..If IT is true, it would mean that they still have the crucible to use and they have to find away inside the citadeal to use it still. Nothing in IT stated the crucible can't be used.

So the IT will have Shepard wake up, go onto the Citadel and activate the crucible and win the war.

In short, an exact repeat of the dream sequence minus the choices in the end....

Yeah if the writers have no imagination;)

So what do you think they are going to do since they said that they will add new endings to the game.

dreman9999 wrote...
Or Shep waking up as a reaper sleeper
agent.. But ya, basicly that can be an option. and no starchild to meet
in the real citadel.

That is quite a different ending don't you think?

Modifié par Lizardviking, 17 avril 2012 - 04:13 .

[thinicer]

balance5050 wrote...

mad825 wrote...

For the IT to work, the whole game may need to rewritten. I'lll point it out again, the Prothean VI on Thessia detected no indoctrination from Shepard and for it to happen afterwards is far too much of a coincidence. A "switch" like device to indoctrinate would be almost like deus ex machina .

Shepard wasn't indoctrnated yet.

Yeah, he needed to be fried by Harbinger's indoctrination laser for it to happen.

[KingZayd]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Do you have any proof that anything after the reaper cut down Shepard really happen?
2.
Indoctrinated People hear Whispers: Fact
Every Person who hears Whispers in their Dreams is Indoctrinated: Assumption 
Shepard spent years near reaper tech:Fact
Shepard was hit by an indoctrination feild on arrival strong enough for him to see visions and voices:fact.
Indoctrintion doesn't go away:Fact
Indoctrination is subtle:fact
Indoctrination can be builded up over tiem :fact(Saren)
Shepard had strang dreams months after being hit by the indoctrination feild from object rho:FACT
Reapers can effect dreams :Fact.

1. You mean aside from the Fact that Bioware is expanding on the Endings so IT seems out?
I prefer the Indoctrination Theory. But right now i doubt that the Bioware devs were smart enough to include something like that

Over the course of several Months, Shepard spend some Minutes near Reaper Tech. (Plus 2 optional hours)
Again, Indoctrination Field is what you make of it. There are no Visions and Voices. Shepard sees Kenson with glowing eyes, maybe being controlled by Harby
It can go away under certain circumstances (Thorian). Oh, Shepard was exposed to that as well
Can be subtle. But everyone who was indoctrinated was pretty obvious about it, and they were aware that they were talking to the Reapers. They just assumed the Reapers were benevolent.
Saren was inside Sovereign and slowly indoctrinated. He studied it. Shepard was only inside a Reaper for ...30 Minutes?
The Indoctrination Field is not a Fact. Shepard being exposed to Object Rho is not a Fact.

Indoctrination theory predicted an expanded ending, so IT is not out
Bioware devs were smart enough to come up with  the rest of the story. When did the lobotomy that you obviously suspect happened take place?

Everyone who was indoctrinated was pretty obvious about it? Saren didn't seem obviously brainwashed, until he realised it himself. The start of TIM's indoctrination was during the war with the Turians. He didn't seem indoctrinated in mass effect 2 (except for those funky eyes, but nobody at the time knew really what that meant, whatever they suspected)

Shepard being exposed to object Rho is a fact. It projected an image in his mind, and then passed out. Much like the artifact that partially indoctrinated TIM, and took full control of Ben and Desolas (saren's brother).

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. I like a link to that. They were asked directly in there face and stated that they are no commenting if it's true or not.
2. Those missions did not last not 
Minutes ...This from ME1 to the arriaval...and in arrival he's by the object for 2 days...
Also, you not near the thorian long enough or an equal enough time of the vasinaty to how much you are to reaper tech to be effected.

1.) the official FAQ? Expanding on the Endings but not adding additional Endings kinda rules out the IT which would need at least one new Ending.

2.) who said Missions? Being Exposed to Reaper-Indoctrination tech lasted Minutes.
ME1 Sovereign on the Citadel
ME2 Derelict Reaper

And Arrival is still Optional content.

Thorian was a joke, fell flat i guess

[KingZayd]

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

thinicer wrote...

I don't know which is worse to be honest with you: the actual endings we got, or the idea that all of it was some indoctrinated hallucination. The actual endings were examples of lazy writing and game development, and the IT assumes the developers were trying to trick us and be clever.

So how is the IT any better? It still results in a highly unsatisfying ending to a memorable story. The only reason the IT gained traction was because desperate fanboys, upset over the endings, tried desperately make sense out of them by looking for things that aren't actually there and evident. The IT presumes that, eventually, Bioware will release new and totally different endings to the game. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people.

It's not going to happen, and Bioware has already come out and said that the endings are going to stand. Time to let it go.

Again, nice eveidence you have presented.

They have evidence... The part where Bioware said the endings weren't changing from what they are.

no they're not changing. they're expanding. it's only changing if Indoc wasn't what they were going for in the first place. For which we need evidence.

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 04:29 .

[jijeebo]

Lizardviking wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
If IT is true then we will have to beat the Reapers a different way, likely with different end choices. Meaning that we will have a new different ending than the one we had.

No..If IT is true, it would mean that they still have the crucible to use and they have to find away inside the citadeal to use it still. Nothing in IT stated the crucible can't be used.

So the IT will have Shepard wake up, go onto the Citadel and activate the crucible and win the war.

In short, an exact repeat of the dream sequence minus the choices in the end....

Oh goody, just what I always wanted from ME3... LESS endings.

Choosing red, blue or green was always too difficult for me anyway.

[Mobius-Silent]

dreman9999 wrote...
That's not a new ening..That just adding on to what is there. It would only be a new ending if changes are made.

Controlling the Reapers and ending the war vs... what? failing and being a servant of the Reapers? That is a change

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 avril 2012 - 04:14 .