421 réponses à ce sujet

[Soultaker08]

balance5050 wrote...

mad825 wrote...

For the IT to work, the whole game may need to rewritten. I'lll point it out again, the Prothean VI on Thessia detected no indoctrination from Shepard and for it to happen afterwards is far too much of a coincidence. A "switch" like device to indoctrinate would be almost like deus ex machina .

Shepard wasn't indoctrnated yet.

Still no evidence that he is being indoctrinated after the beam hit

It is more easy to regard the ending to crappy writing than to anything else.

If there would have been more choices than three and you could have discussed everything the catalyst says nobody would have come up with IT , reading to much into it doesnt change that

Modifié par Soultaker08, 17 avril 2012 - 04:16 .

[tute]

They said at PAX decide for yourselves after seeing the extended cut. They havent outright dissmissed it.
Something else to consider is that shepards implants are cerberus implants, which in turn are based on paul grayson's implants. Although the game doesnt specify just how similar they are, the fact that cerberus troops that posses cerberus implants hear whispers and shepard too in these "dreams" is something worth looking at

[dreman9999]

mad825 wrote...

For the IT to work, the whole game may need to rewritten. I'lll point it out again, the Prothean VI on Thessia detected no indoctrination from Shepard ....

....This has been explain to hell and back...This is the same VI that fail to detect indoctrinated sleeper ageints during the prothean curcible project. The same type of VI that failed to detect the sleeper agent on the persever projct Javik was on......That VI is flawed...The reapers have a way to work around it.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

tute wrote...

They said at PAX decide for yourselves after seeing the extended cut. They havent outright dissmissed it.
Something else to consider is that shepards implants are cerberus implants, which in turn are based on paul grayson's implants. Although the game doesnt specify just how similar they are, the fact that cerberus troops that posses cerberus implants hear whispers and shepard too in these "dreams" is something worth looking at

Shepard is NOT implanted with Reaper tech, and Paul Grayson's implants were made after ME2 AFAIK.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 17 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[mad825]

balance5050 wrote...

mad825 wrote...

For the IT to work, the whole game may need to rewritten. I'lll point it out again, the Prothean VI on Thessia detected no indoctrination from Shepard and for it to happen afterwards is far too much of a coincidence. A "switch" like device to indoctrinate would be almost like deus ex machina .

Shepard wasn't indoctrnated yet.

Eh, speculation.

Do you want to explain how and why? Why in the middle of ACT 3? Read the last part of my quote:

A "switch" like device to indoctrinate would be almost like deus ex machina .

dreman9999 wrote...

mad825 wrote...

For the
IT to work, the whole game may need to rewritten. I'lll point it out
again, the Prothean VI on Thessia detected no indoctrination from
Shepard ....

....This has been explain to hell and
back...This is the same VI that fail to detect indoctrinated sleeper
ageints during the prothean curcible project. The same type of VI that
failed to detect the sleeper agent on the persever projct Javik was
on......That VI is flawed...The reapers have a way to work around it.

Just like it didn't detect Kai Leng...or TIM. Hacking the VI was a waste of time...<_<

Modifié par mad825, 17 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[dreman9999]

tute wrote...

They said at PAX decide for yourselves after seeing the extended cut. They havent outright dissmissed it.
Something else to consider is that shepards implants are cerberus implants, which in turn are based on paul grayson's implants. Although the game doesnt specify just how similar they are, the fact that cerberus troops that posses cerberus implants hear whispers and shepard too in these "dreams" is something worth looking at

.....First come ME2 into the time line...then comes ME:retribution...the book that grayson is indoctrinated in which cerberus use....
So first...All of ME2 up the the suicide mission...Then retrubution.....Meaning, No Shepard's implants are not basd on Paul Graysons implants.

[jijeebo]

tute wrote...

They said at PAX decide for yourselves after seeing the extended cut. They havent outright dissmissed it.
Something else to consider is that shepards implants are cerberus implants, which in turn are based on paul grayson's implants. Although the game doesnt specify just how similar they are, the fact that cerberus troops that posses cerberus implants hear whispers and shepard too in these "dreams" is something worth looking at

I honestly think Biowares thought process is that if people download the dlc and STILL think that despite the clarification that IT is the only explanation... Then who are Bioware to tell them otherwise.

SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE!!1!

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
The evidence is that he wakes up amongst concrete rubble after just being in the middle of this:

The Presidium uses concrete, the cables, in the breath scene are identical to the cables in the processing room below Shepard, the explosion you show dies down _in the same video_ and shows the Citadel tower and the Presidium ring intact. Conclusion: Shepard was blown down the hole into the body of the Citadel tower by the initial little boom and shielded from the big band by the body of the Citadel.
- not proof

balance5050 wrote.. 
Also, the white light "dream transition effect is very telling that the ending could be a combination of a dream and being somehow mentally linked to some reaper somehow.

Generic whiteout FX reuse, perfectly normal in game development (notice how Shep keeps changing weapon during cutscenes, it's because its easier and quicker)
-not proof

balance5050 wrote..  
Also, look at Shepards eyes when he chooses either control or synthesize

So? Edi has the same eye structure, TIM has had those implants for ages we have no reason to assume they mean anything. Unless you've already bought into the IT bandwagon. Hence, its proof because of other stuff we say is proof
-not proof

The stuff that the catalyst says doesn't make sense when you consider mass effect 1: 

Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)? How do the Protheans get sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth. Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time? 

Therefore either the ending is terribly broken, or the Catalyst is lying.

[Mobius-Silent]

KingZayd wrote...

Indoctrination theory predicted an expanded ending, so IT is not out
Bioware devs were smart enough to come up with  the rest of the story. When did the lobotomy that you obviously suspect happened take place?

Patrick Weeks wrote something about that but then recanted when it blew up in his face

KingZayd wrote... 
Shepard being exposed to object Rho is a fact. It projected an image in his mind, and then passed out.

For all of 10 mins, then he spent 2 days in the med-bay

[KingZayd]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

thinicer wrote...

I don't know which is worse to be honest with you: the actual endings we got, or the idea that all of it was some indoctrinated hallucination. The actual endings were examples of lazy writing and game development, and the IT assumes the developers were trying to trick us and be clever.

So how is the IT any better? It still results in a highly unsatisfying ending to a memorable story. The only reason the IT gained traction was because desperate fanboys, upset over the endings, tried desperately make sense out of them by looking for things that aren't actually there and evident. The IT presumes that, eventually, Bioware will release new and totally different endings to the game. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people.

It's not going to happen, and Bioware has already come out and said that the endings are going to stand. Time to let it go.

Again, nice eveidence you have presented.

They have evidence... The part where Bioware said the endings weren't changing from what they are.

Why do people not understand that for IT to work, BW can't change the ending...They just have to add more on to it.

Making all but the *perfect* ending more or less a CRITICAL FAILURE is most definately changing the ending.

Why don't people understand that?

You don't see a dead body in all the other endings, so not necessarily a critical failure. And it's not a change if that's what they were planning from the beginning. Why don't people understand that?

[thinicer]

I would like for some IT zealot to please explain to me how the existing endings can still stand, just expanded upon, with IT in place. IT relies totally on the premise that the final 10 minutes of the game are in Shepard's head. Everything that happens, from TIM shooting Andersen, from conversation with the Catalyst, and the three color choices, are nothing but hallucinations and that Shepard is not on the Citadel at all, but really back on Earth.

How can the gamer honestly have the same color endings (only expanded) if this is the case? IT absolutely, 100% relies on totally different endings and choices for Shepard. If Shepard is still on Earth, then the color choices are completely thrown out meaning the war with the Reapers is still on and the gamer needs new choices to finish the game.

Logic seems to be eluding a lot of people here.....

[Mobius-Silent]

KingZayd wrote...

The stuff that the catalyst says doesn't make sense when you consider mass effect 1: 

Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)? How do the Protheans get sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth. Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time? 

This I agree with! but I hold by option #3 as to the cause: Lazy writing.

So simple question for all you hardcode IT true-believers, when summer comes and the EC has not a whiff of IT in it. What then?

[lpbarrows]

KingZayd wrote...
Therefore either the ending is terribly broken, or the Catalyst is lying.

I know which I want to be true.
Sadly I think I know which one is actually true.

[dreman9999]

mad825 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

mad825 wrote...

For the IT to work, the whole game may need to rewritten. I'lll point it out again, the Prothean VI on Thessia detected no indoctrination from Shepard and for it to happen afterwards is far too much of a coincidence. A "switch" like device to indoctrinate would be almost like deus ex machina .

Shepard wasn't indoctrnated yet.

Eh, speculation.

Do you want to explain how and why? Why in the middle of ACT 3? Read the last part of my quote:

A "switch" like device to indoctrinate would be almost like deus ex machina .

1. No, not a speculation..My Shepard clearly want to stop the reapers..So it's clear he/she is not indoctrinated...Yet.
2. How do you not understandthe statement"process of being indoctrianted for all contated with reapers and reaper tech,including object rho? ...In the last bit Shepard is still in the process of indoctrination...Besed on IT, Shepardis only indoctrinated one he /she chooses senthisis or control.

[archangelg99]

So, say the IT is true. Where does this leave TIM?

[Tleining]

KingZayd wrote...

Indoctrination theory predicted an expanded ending, so IT is not out
Bioware devs were smart enough to come up with  the rest of the story. When did the lobotomy that you obviously suspect happened take place?

Everyone who was indoctrinated was pretty obvious about it? Saren didn't seem obviously brainwashed, until he realised it himself. The start of TIM's indoctrination was during the war with the Turians. He didn't seem indoctrinated in mass effect 2 (except for those funky eyes, but nobody at the time knew really what that meant, whatever they suspected)

Shepard being exposed to object Rho is a fact. It projected an image in his mind, and then passed out. Much like the artifact that partially indoctrinated TIM, and took full control of Ben and Desolas (saren's brother).

read my previous post. I really doubt that IT will be in it. It would be great, but i really doubt it.
The Lobotomy took place before they decided to release the game with an Ending like that

The first time you spoke to Saren (personally, not in front of the Council), though to be fair at that Point Rana had pretty much revealed it to you.
Benezias whole behaviour, her disregard for Liara, made it pretty obvious that there was something wrong with her.
Dr. Kenson: We have two days until the Reapers get here, so let's go to the Alliance to tell them about it. *headdesk*

TIM wasn't indoctrinated until he was implanted near the End of ME3 (or it's at least open to debate).

*sigh* once again, the Arrival Mission IS Optional. That is a fact. If you don't do the Mission, a Squad of Marines will do it.
You assume that there was an image being projected into Shepards Mind, i saw it more as Kenson being controlled by Harby.

Modifié par Tleining, 17 avril 2012 - 04:24 .

[dreman9999]

lpbarrows wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Therefore either the ending is terribly broken, or the Catalyst is lying.

I know which I want to be true.
Sadly I think I know which one is actually true.

Why would the star kid be telling the truth?...It contridicts everything stated in the game.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 04:24 .

[jijeebo]

KingZayd wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

thinicer wrote...

I don't know which is worse to be honest with you: the actual endings we got, or the idea that all of it was some indoctrinated hallucination. The actual endings were examples of lazy writing and game development, and the IT assumes the developers were trying to trick us and be clever.

So how is the IT any better? It still results in a highly unsatisfying ending to a memorable story. The only reason the IT gained traction was because desperate fanboys, upset over the endings, tried desperately make sense out of them by looking for things that aren't actually there and evident. The IT presumes that, eventually, Bioware will release new and totally different endings to the game. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people.

It's not going to happen, and Bioware has already come out and said that the endings are going to stand. Time to let it go.

Again, nice eveidence you have presented.

They have evidence... The part where Bioware said the endings weren't changing from what they are.

Why do people not understand that for IT to work, BW can't change the ending...They just have to add more on to it.

Making all but the *perfect* ending more or less a CRITICAL FAILURE is most definately changing the ending.

Why don't people understand that?

You don't see a dead body in all the other endings, so not necessarily a critical failure. And it's not a change if that's what they were planning from the beginning. Why don't people understand that?

They NEVER planned it from the start, they've specifically said that the "content initiatives" regarding the ending are in addition to their planned content.

And you're an indoctrinated mess on the floor in a ruined earth, with no option but either being a traitor or shooting yourself in the face... Seems on a par with romancing Morinth tbh.

EDIT: Why don't people understand that?

Modifié par jijeebo, 17 avril 2012 - 04:25 .

[balance5050]

Mobius-Silent wrote...


Patrick Weeks wrote something about that but then recanted when it blew up in his face

KingZayd wrote... 
Shepard being exposed to object Rho is a fact. It projected an image in his mind, and then passed out.

For all of 10 mins, then he spent 2 days in the med-bay

Too bad that was just a hint... Pat never said when they wrote the ending... It was at the beginning of development.

Project Rho still blasted him in the face with an indoctrination wave, there's no denying that.

[Mobius-Silent]

thinicer wrote...

I would like for some IT zealot to please explain to me how the existing endings can still stand, just expanded upon, with IT in place. IT relies totally on the premise that the final 10 minutes of the game are in Shepard's head. Everything that happens, from TIM shooting Andersen, from conversation with the Catalyst, and the three color choices, are nothing but hallucinations and that Shepard is not on the Citadel at all, but really back on Earth.

and that the "Final hours of Mass effect 3" app was a carefully managed lie.
and that they couldn't keep deleted audio assets out of the game build nor deleted art assets but they somehow could erase all mention of the the ending dream-sequence from the game assets and replace then with literal-sounding alternatives. Including the internal-only scene guides.

[KingZayd]

thinicer wrote...

IT can also makes the presumption that there is only ONE, TRUE choice at the end of the game, which is Destroy. Am I wrong on this? The presumption is that with Control and Synthesis, Shepard is indoctrinated and does what the Reapers want, whereas with Destroy he breaks free of indoctrination, so gamers are limited to only one choice if they truly want to win the game and end the threat of the Reapers once and for all. How is this any better? Very restrictive.

Also, if Synthesis and Control are the indoctrinated choices, then how come they are only obtained if your EMS is high enough? So more EMS means more indoctrination?

If all three color endings are truly hallucinations, then that means we still haven't gotten the TRUE endings, meaning that the IT needs completely different endings that fall outside of the three color choices. Bioware they have already come out and said that the existing endings will stand and they are proud of them and that they will just be expanded upon so that more of your war assets will show, more closure for your squadmates, epilogues, with some other questions answered.

It's pretty cut and dry that IT is dead.

Indoctrinated individuals have broken indoctrination in the game plenty of times.. temporarily. Demonstrated by the deaths of Saren (if he kills himself), Liara's mum, and visionTIM (whether it's you breaking indoc to shoot him, or him to suicide) IT doesn't require the retconning of any of the choices, so they'd still stand, and there'd be consequences for those choices.

It's pretty cut and dry, that without IT or retconning, the ending is doomed to fail.

[balance5050]

jijeebo wrote...


They NEVER planned it from the start, they've specifically said that the "content initiatives" regarding the ending are in addition to their planned content.

And you're an indoctrinated mess on the floor in a ruined earth, with no option but either being a traitor or shooting yourself in the face... Seems on a par with romancing Morinth tbh.

According to the "final hours" app, it actually was planned.

Chossing destroy would be "resisting" indoc, not "breaking free" of indoc. No need to shoot yourself yet.

[Mobius-Silent]

balance5050 wrote...

Too bad that was just a hint... Pat never said when they wrote the ending... It was at the beginning of development.

Project Rho still blasted him in the face with an indoctrination wave, there's no denying that.

I deny that, Object Rho was powering up to open the Alpha relay. The Initial blip more resembled a biotic effect.

[KingZayd]

balance5050 wrote...

mad825 wrote...

For the IT to work, the whole game may need to rewritten. I'lll point it out again, the Prothean VI on Thessia detected no indoctrination from Shepard and for it to happen afterwards is far too much of a coincidence. A "switch" like device to indoctrinate would be almost like deus ex machina .

Shepard wasn't indoctrnated yet.

at least not obviously. We don't know how sensitive the indoctrination detection is. It would be foolish to assume that it is perfect.

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Indoctrination theory predicted an expanded ending, so IT is not out
Bioware devs were smart enough to come up with  the rest of the story. When did the lobotomy that you obviously suspect happened take place?

Everyone who was indoctrinated was pretty obvious about it? Saren didn't seem obviously brainwashed, until he realised it himself. The start of TIM's indoctrination was during the war with the Turians. He didn't seem indoctrinated in mass effect 2 (except for those funky eyes, but nobody at the time knew really what that meant, whatever they suspected)

Shepard being exposed to object Rho is a fact. It projected an image in his mind, and then passed out. Much like the artifact that partially indoctrinated TIM, and took full control of Ben and Desolas (saren's brother).

read my previous post. I really doubt that IT will be in it. It would be great, but i really doubt it.
The Lobotomy took place before they decided to release the game with an Ending like that

The first time you spoke to Saren (personally, not in front of the Council), though to be fair at that Point Rana had pretty much revealed it to you.
Benezias whole behaviour, her disregard for Liara, made it pretty obvious that there was something wrong with her.
Dr. Kenson: We have two days until the Reapers get here, so let's go to the Alliance to tell them about it. *headdesk*

TIM wasn't indoctrinated until he was implanted near the End of ME3 (or it's at least open to debate).

*sigh* once again, the Arrival Mission IS Optional. That is a fact. If you don't do the Mission, a Squad of Marines will do it.
You assume that there was an image being projected into Shepards Mind, i saw it more as Kenson being controlled by Harby.

It's canon because Bw had to make a story with it intend to be involved. Tali and Legion are optional to have in ME3 but BW still wrote rennoch like they were sappost to be there anyway.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 04:28 .