421 réponses à ce sujet

[thinicer]

KingZayd wrote...

thinicer wrote...

IT can also makes the presumption that there is only ONE, TRUE choice at the end of the game, which is Destroy. Am I wrong on this? The presumption is that with Control and Synthesis, Shepard is indoctrinated and does what the Reapers want, whereas with Destroy he breaks free of indoctrination, so gamers are limited to only one choice if they truly want to win the game and end the threat of the Reapers once and for all. How is this any better? Very restrictive.

Also, if Synthesis and Control are the indoctrinated choices, then how come they are only obtained if your EMS is high enough? So more EMS means more indoctrination?

If all three color endings are truly hallucinations, then that means we still haven't gotten the TRUE endings, meaning that the IT needs completely different endings that fall outside of the three color choices. Bioware they have already come out and said that the existing endings will stand and they are proud of them and that they will just be expanded upon so that more of your war assets will show, more closure for your squadmates, epilogues, with some other questions answered.

It's pretty cut and dry that IT is dead.

Indoctrinated individuals have broken indoctrination in the game plenty of times.. temporarily. Demonstrated by the deaths of Saren (if he kills himself), Liara's mum, and visionTIM (whether it's you breaking indoc to shoot him, or him to suicide) IT doesn't require the retconning of any of the choices, so they'd still stand, and there'd be consequences for those choices.

It's pretty cut and dry, that without IT or retconning, the ending is doomed to fail.

You're overthinking things. If the ending is truly this complicated, then Bioware needs to be further ridiculed. There are gamers that haven't played the first two games and ME3 is their first experience with the series. If Bioware is going to intentionally dupe and fool their audience with something as lame as the IT, then that makes the endings even worse I think.

[balance5050]

 

[Mobius-Silent]

balance5050 wrote...
According to the "final hours" app, it actually was planned.
Chossing destroy would be "resisting" indoc, not "breaking free" of indoc. No need to shoot yourself yet.

No they discussed a section where you lose control of Shep and discarded it.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 avril 2012 - 04:29 .

[jijeebo]

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...


They NEVER planned it from the start, they've specifically said that the "content initiatives" regarding the ending are in addition to their planned content.

And you're an indoctrinated mess on the floor in a ruined earth, with no option but either being a traitor or shooting yourself in the face... Seems on a par with romancing Morinth tbh.

According to the "final hours" app, it actually was planned.

Chossing destroy would be "resisting" indoc, not "breaking free" of indoc. No need to shoot yourself yet.

I don't own said app, but I read that it says that they played with the idea of Shep being indoctrinated... But that they scrapped it.

... But is this the same app that shows a picture of a piece of paper that shows the thought process behind the endings, and yet makes no reference to indoctrination anywhere?

[balance5050]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
According to the "final hours" app, it actually was planned.
Chossing destroy would be "resisting" indoc, not "breaking free" of indoc. No need to shoot yourself yet.

No they discussed a section where you lose control of Shep and discarded it.

And why wouldn't we have control of Shep?

[dreman9999]

thinicer wrote...

I would like for some IT zealot to please explain to me how the existing endings can still stand, just expanded upon, with IT in place. IT relies totally on the premise that the final 10 minutes of the game are in Shepard's head. Everything that happens, from TIM shooting Andersen, from conversation with the Catalyst, and the three color choices, are nothing but hallucinations and that Shepard is not on the Citadel at all, but really back on Earth.

How can the gamer honestly have the same color endings (only expanded) if this is the case? IT absolutely, 100% relies on totally different endings and choices for Shepard. If Shepard is still on Earth, then the color choices are completely thrown out meaning the war with the Reapers is still on and the gamer needs new choices to finish the game.

Logic seems to be eluding a lot of people here.....

...After the dream Shepard wakesup from the ruble, goes into the citadeal and activates the crucible....Makes sense.

[Mobius-Silent]

balance5050 wrote...

 

So? this is
IT assumes that TIM's eyes are reaper implants
IT assumes that they are related to indoctrination
IT assumes that this circular logis also proves something else.

EDI has the same pattern, it's just a tech effect that looks cool

[dreman9999]

x

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 04:35 .

[thinicer]

dreman9999 wrote...

thinicer wrote...

I would like for some IT zealot to please explain to me how the existing endings can still stand, just expanded upon, with IT in place. IT relies totally on the premise that the final 10 minutes of the game are in Shepard's head. Everything that happens, from TIM shooting Andersen, from conversation with the Catalyst, and the three color choices, are nothing but hallucinations and that Shepard is not on the Citadel at all, but really back on Earth.

How can the gamer honestly have the same color endings (only expanded) if this is the case? IT absolutely, 100% relies on totally different endings and choices for Shepard. If Shepard is still on Earth, then the color choices are completely thrown out meaning the war with the Reapers is still on and the gamer needs new choices to finish the game.

Logic seems to be eluding a lot of people here.....

...After the dream Shepard wakesup from the ruble, goes into the citadeal and activates the crucible....Makes sense.

So the gamer gets to activate the crucible twice then! Once in the dream, and then once in real life. Great idea - I love going over the same ground twice.

[Mobius-Silent]

balance5050 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...
According to the "final hours" app, it actually was planned.
Chossing destroy would be "resisting" indoc, not "breaking free" of indoc. No need to shoot yourself yet.

No they discussed a section where you lose control of Shep and discarded it.

And why wouldn't we have control of Shep?

A section where you lose control of shep that was rejected offers no support to your gigantuan IT house of cards. It jsut gives you another circumstancial card to say "look look proof, no, really this time!"

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Indoctrination theory predicted an expanded ending, so IT is not out
Bioware devs were smart enough to come up with  the rest of the story. When did the lobotomy that you obviously suspect happened take place?

Patrick Weeks wrote something about that but then recanted when it blew up in his face

KingZayd wrote... 
Shepard being exposed to object Rho is a fact. It projected an image in his mind, and then passed out.

For all of 10 mins, then he spent 2 days in the med-bay

 
What and that's just normal? It's not possible that it changed Shepard? The same thing happened to TIM and he passed out for a while too. and Ben. That's how the reaper influence got into their heads. Again, why is Shepard supposedly indoctrination-proof?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

 

So? this is
IT assumes that TIM's eyes are reaper implants
IT assumes that they are related to indoctrination
IT assumes that this circular logis also proves something else.

EDI has the same pattern, it's just a tech effect that looks cool

TIM's eyes are from Reaper influence, he was hit by a Reaper artifact or something.

thinicer wrote...
So the gamer gets to activate the crucible
twice then! Once in the dream, and then once in real life. Great idea -
I love going over the same ground twice.

Glad to see I am not the only one who thinks that is silly!

Modifié par Lizardviking, 17 avril 2012 - 04:35 .

[tute]

dreman9999 wrote...

.....First come ME2 into the time line...then comes ME:retribution...the book that grayson is indoctrinated in which cerberus use....
So first...All of ME2 up the the suicide mission...Then retrubution.....Meaning, No Shepard's implants are not basd on Paul Graysons implants.

Thanks on the clarification. I havent read retribution yet so i didnt know it came after me2. Still, with all the rumors spread by people and BW im not making any more conclusions until I see the extended cut. IMO when i played the game for the first time and reading the codex, I saw elements of some sort of manipulation. It doesnt have to be indoctrination but clearly HJO is trying to manipulate you at the crucible.

[balance5050]

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...


They NEVER planned it from the start, they've specifically said that the "content initiatives" regarding the ending are in addition to their planned content.

And you're an indoctrinated mess on the floor in a ruined earth, with no option but either being a traitor or shooting yourself in the face... Seems on a par with romancing Morinth tbh.

According to the "final hours" app, it actually was planned.

Chossing destroy would be "resisting" indoc, not "breaking free" of indoc. No need to shoot yourself yet.

I don't own said app, but I read that it says that they played with the idea of Shep being indoctrinated... But that they scrapped it.

... But is this the same app that shows a picture of a piece of paper that shows the thought process behind the endings, and yet makes no reference to indoctrination anywhere?

This was given to Geoff Keighly early in the development cycle, Notive how it says "Shepard Alive!" at the top. Also notice "End of the First Matrix" "and "A Brave New World" The reason this was given away is becasause it doesn't out IT right away, but ti drops some HEAVY clues.

 



EDIT: Mentions of "the matrix" and "brave new world are meaningless outside of I.T.

Modifié par balance5050, 17 avril 2012 - 04:37 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Anyhow, as I've said in other forums, I'll come back after the EC. See how you all feel then. Happy trails true-believers

[balance5050]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Anyhow, as I've said in other forums, I'll come back after the EC. See how you all feel then. Happy trails true-believers

PEACE!

EDIT: IT just makes more sense regardless of if they intended it or not.

Modifié par balance5050, 17 avril 2012 - 04:40 .

[thinicer]

There are going to be a lot of disappointed IT believers come summer, but I'm sure they'll still argue that the whole ending is a hallucination out of pure stubbornness.

[dreman9999]

thinicer wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

thinicer wrote...

I would like for some IT zealot to please explain to me how the existing endings can still stand, just expanded upon, with IT in place. IT relies totally on the premise that the final 10 minutes of the game are in Shepard's head. Everything that happens, from TIM shooting Andersen, from conversation with the Catalyst, and the three color choices, are nothing but hallucinations and that Shepard is not on the Citadel at all, but really back on Earth.

How can the gamer honestly have the same color endings (only expanded) if this is the case? IT absolutely, 100% relies on totally different endings and choices for Shepard. If Shepard is still on Earth, then the color choices are completely thrown out meaning the war with the Reapers is still on and the gamer needs new choices to finish the game.

Logic seems to be eluding a lot of people here.....

...After the dream Shepard wakesup from the ruble, goes into the citadeal and activates the crucible....Makes sense.

So the gamer gets to activate the crucible twice then! Once in the dream, and then once in real life. Great idea - I love going over the same ground twice.

It's all in the name of tricking the player. If you understand IT, you understand the theory states the whole point was to try and trick Shepard, Change his mind, and make him a reaper sleeper agent. Basicly, make Shepard like Saren.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 04:41 .

[balance5050]

thinicer wrote...

There are going to be a lot of disappointed IT believers come summer, but I'm sure they'll still argue that the whole ending is a hallucination out of pure stubbornness.

Nah, I have faith in Bioware.

[KingZayd]

thinicer wrote...

I would like for some IT zealot to please explain to me how the existing endings can still stand, just expanded upon, with IT in place. IT relies totally on the premise that the final 10 minutes of the game are in Shepard's head. Everything that happens, from TIM shooting Andersen, from conversation with the Catalyst, and the three color choices, are nothing but hallucinations and that Shepard is not on the Citadel at all, but really back on Earth.

How can the gamer honestly have the same color endings (only expanded) if this is the case? IT absolutely, 100% relies on totally different endings and choices for Shepard. If Shepard is still on Earth, then the color choices are completely thrown out meaning the war with the Reapers is still on and the gamer needs new choices to finish the game.

Logic seems to be eluding a lot of people here.....

they stand as what you chose in your vision. they're not real, which is why EDI is still alive for example (this bioware have confirmed) and why you can meet up with your squadmates again (again confirmed) but they're still part of the game as what you chose affects your mental state when you wake up. The true ending will come afterwards along with an epilogue.

Now I would like an anti-IT zealot to please explain to me  how the existing endings can still stand, without IT in place, considering:

Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)? How do the Protheans get sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst? When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on? Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth. Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use? Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...


They NEVER planned it from the start, they've specifically said that the "content initiatives" regarding the ending are in addition to their planned content.

And you're an indoctrinated mess on the floor in a ruined earth, with no option but either being a traitor or shooting yourself in the face... Seems on a par with romancing Morinth tbh.

According to the "final hours" app, it actually was planned.

Chossing destroy would be "resisting" indoc, not "breaking free" of indoc. No need to shoot yourself yet.

I don't own said app, but I read that it says that they played with the idea of Shep being indoctrinated... But that they scrapped it.

... But is this the same app that shows a picture of a piece of paper that shows the thought process behind the endings, and yet makes no reference to indoctrination anywhere?

That statement only made it clear they cut out the gameplay aspects of indoctrination...Not the story elements.

[jijeebo]

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...


They NEVER planned it from the start, they've specifically said that the "content initiatives" regarding the ending are in addition to their planned content.

And you're an indoctrinated mess on the floor in a ruined earth, with no option but either being a traitor or shooting yourself in the face... Seems on a par with romancing Morinth tbh.

According to the "final hours" app, it actually was planned.

Chossing destroy would be "resisting" indoc, not "breaking free" of indoc. No need to shoot yourself yet.

I don't own said app, but I read that it says that they played with the idea of Shep being indoctrinated... But that they scrapped it.

... But is this the same app that shows a picture of a piece of paper that shows the thought process behind the endings, and yet makes no reference to indoctrination anywhere?

This was given to Geoff Keighly early in the development cycle, Notive how it says "Shepard Alive!" at the top. Also notice "End of the First Matrix" "and "A Brave New World" The reason this was given away is becasause it doesn't out IT right away, but ti drops some HEAVY clues.

 



EDIT: Mentions of "the matrix" and "brave new world are meaningless outside of I.T.

Well, there are endings where Shepare IS alive.

And I don't remember how the Matrix went, but i'm pretty sure the "brave new world" is referring to the loss of the relays as well as the random ass planet the Normandy crashes on.

[httinks2006]

When I played through my second complete play through it convinced me that the IT was a reality so to speak . Everything was too dreamlike and wasn't based on the real time game mechanics of the series .

I'm a believer in IT , my Shepard would not go meekly into the night . He would not just submit to a godchild telling him to pick one choice out of three that would betray his moral compass and all that he's been through and done throughout the years. My Shepard is a man of logic and when he's told by the godchild I have created the reapers to destroy organics so the organics would not create synthetics that would destroy organics , my Shepard would not accept this it is illogical !!!!
Additionally I would not believe the creator of the ultimate enemy I've been trying to prevent and stop these many years . That's nonsense , ignorant and just plain dumb to put your faith in the creator of your greatest enemy .Overcoming the odds is what life is about ,doing the impossible is an awesome achievement .I'll borrow from a saying I saw in the forums :

When life isn't depressing enough play Mass Effect 3 .

Many of us play video games to get relief from the real world to leave behind things that get us down and I despise the reasoning , This reflects real life grow up and stop being a whiny ,entitled immature brat . As a title promising extremely different endings there could have been a range anywhere from utter defeat to anywhere in between up to the popular rainbows and bunnies ending depending on your choices and war readiness throughout the three titles .

[Taboo]

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BobbyDylan wrote...

It's a popular opinion, but there's far from consenus on the matter. Some people (not me) out there really enjoy the endings at face value. The IT (while making a lot of sense IMHO) serves more as a coping mechanism for the crappy ending then a likely intention of the writers.

It's not a coping mechanism...Most people like it because it makes sense. It's logical.

No, it's a coping mechanism, and it only makes sense because people want it too.

People use the word theory which is incorrect. A theory is based upon factual evidence that exists. I hate to break it to you but scientists have more evidence that Bigfoot exists (Scientists can't make a consensus on the Patterson-Gimilin film) than you have proof of the indoctrination theory.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...


They NEVER planned it from the start, they've specifically said that the "content initiatives" regarding the ending are in addition to their planned content.

And you're an indoctrinated mess on the floor in a ruined earth, with no option but either being a traitor or shooting yourself in the face... Seems on a par with romancing Morinth tbh.

According to the "final hours" app, it actually was planned.

Chossing destroy would be "resisting" indoc, not "breaking free" of indoc. No need to shoot yourself yet.

I don't own said app, but I read that it says that they played with the idea of Shep being indoctrinated... But that they scrapped it.

... But is this the same app that shows a picture of a piece of paper that shows the thought process behind the endings, and yet makes no reference to indoctrination anywhere?

That statement only made it clear they cut out the gameplay aspects of indoctrination...Not the story elements.

Surely the story elements were tied to the gameplay, seeing as how they wanted players to FEEL the loss of control or w/e... It's only natural that when they removed one they removed the other.