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[im commander shep]

Just to bring the thread back on topic. I am not talking about Indoctrination Theory and the ending if it was a dream/hallucination.

I'm specifically talking about the themes thoughout ME3 and how/if they relate to shepard being indoctrinated.

[pablosplinter]

im commander shep wrote...

If we forget about Indoctrination Theory and the ending for the moment.

Thoughout the game we are given lots of hints that shepard is being indoctrinated/ attempts at indoctrination (the dreams inparticular). Other than at the end and the set piece with TIM and anderson where shepard maybe under indoctrinated control from TIM.

If we take the endings as they are nothing ever comes of this indoctrination its just forgotten about even though as the game progresses it appears the indoctrination is getting stronger and stronger. Is there any pay off from the indoctrination or was that all removed as mentioned in the ME3 final hours app.

There does not seem to be any point to the indoctrination references now, (maybe artistic/dramatic effect).

Replaying the game atm, Indoctrination makes so much sense! .....I see it everywhere and it makes senseof/improves a hell of a lot, especially the kid/dreams.

Plus I am really noticing the haggard look that Shep has, and which gets worse throughout the game. he has to be being indoctrinated....

[Iconoclaste]

im commander shep wrote...

Just to bring the thread back on topic. I am not talking about Indoctrination Theory and the ending if it was a dream/hallucination.

I'm specifically talking about the themes thoughout ME3 and how/if they relate to shepard being indoctrinated.

I don't see Shepard siding with the Reapers anywhere in the series, but just in the last minutes he could change his mind. It's perfectly clear that siding with the Reapers during the campain would be a critical failure, and that's the tool used by the writers to justify why villains with intelligence would decide to help monsters eradicate civilizations. That being said, there are still creatures that "attack" the heroes, for other motives than "siding with the Reapers". Varrens are not indoctrinated.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 18 avril 2012 - 09:28 .

[Mobius-Silent]

im commander shep wrote...

Just to bring the thread back on topic. I am not talking about Indoctrination Theory and the ending if it was a dream/hallucination.

I'm specifically talking about the themes thoughout ME3 and how/if they relate to shepard being indoctrinated.

Then I would say no, definately not. At the absolute worst I would say that Shepard was suffering from severe battle fatigue and the emotional weight of the fate of the entire Galaxy resting on her shoulders. Not to mention Javik reminding her of the desire for justice for the species of countless past cycles. And the horrific possibility that she may already be "less" than human due to her resurrection via the Lazarus project. I would say that attributing the distress Shepard shows to indoctrination belittles the emotional weight of the setting.

If we had whispering voices during important decisions. Or dialogue unusual for Shepard with paragon and renegade "true" Shepard options then I'd concede than it would be likely Shepard was suffering from the initial stages of indoctrination. But there is no evidence that Bioware were trying to show anything but fatigue at the horror of galactic war.

[im commander shep]

pablosplinter wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

If we forget about Indoctrination Theory and the ending for the moment.

Thoughout the game we are given lots of hints that shepard is being indoctrinated/ attempts at indoctrination (the dreams inparticular). Other than at the end and the set piece with TIM and anderson where shepard maybe under indoctrinated control from TIM.

If we take the endings as they are nothing ever comes of this indoctrination its just forgotten about even though as the game progresses it appears the indoctrination is getting stronger and stronger. Is there any pay off from the indoctrination or was that all removed as mentioned in the ME3 final hours app.

There does not seem to be any point to the indoctrination references now, (maybe artistic/dramatic effect).

Replaying the game atm, Indoctrination makes so much sense! .....I see it everywhere and it makes senseof/improves a hell of a lot, especially the kid/dreams.

Plus I am really noticing the haggard look that Shep has, and which gets worse throughout the game. he has to be being indoctrinated....

The haggard/tired look shepard slowly takes on is a great touch. While I would not really link this to indoctrination the idea that shepard is losing it and getting more and more stressed is really done well, (other than some of the voice actting by male shep 0

[Sean]

Not in its original way that people describe.

That is why I think of the Attempted Indoctrination Theory (or AIT)

The way it works is that with Shep being so close to Harbinger (being the main Reaper too) and unsonsious the indoctrination process is magnified and Shep is battling for his/her mind (basically explains everything post-beam blast)

Choosing destroy would then break the hold and would still make sense in the game's universe.


But I honestly think that might have been the orignal idea but was scrapped very late in the game's production which would explain all the problems with the ending.

[Morale4HATE]

You people and your deep denial of the endings make me laugh and cry. Seriously its not indoctrination, its crappy writing. the dreams, the haggard look, etc, can be explained as simple war fatigue and/or PTSD. Seriously people just accept the fact that the Bioware writers got lazy or just didnt give a frak anymore.

Btw if it was indoctrination Bioware would have stated so on the first day that negative PR of the endings started flooding the internet.

[im commander shep]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

im commander shep wrote...

Just to bring the thread back on topic. I am not talking about Indoctrination Theory and the ending if it was a dream/hallucination.

I'm specifically talking about the themes thoughout ME3 and how/if they relate to shepard being indoctrinated.

Then I would say no, definately not. At the absolute worst I would say that Shepard was suffering from severe battle fatigue and the emotional weight of the fate of the entire Galaxy resting on her shoulders. Not to mention Javik reminding her of the desire for justice for the species of countless past cycles. And the horrific possibility that she may already be "less" than human due to her resurrection via the Lazarus project. I would say that attributing the distress Shepard shows to indoctrination belittles the emotional weight of the setting.

If we had whispering voices during important decisions. Or dialogue unusual for Shepard with paragon and renegade "true" Shepard options then I'd concede than it would be likely Shepard was suffering from the initial stages of indoctrination. But there is no evidence that Bioware were trying to show anything but fatigue at the horror of galactic war.

If this is the case, what is your explantion for the scenes with TIM and anderson on the citadel and the oily wisps etc. Is this an indoctrination attempt or, for example TIM doing something with his implants.

[im commander shep]

Morale4HATE wrote...

You people and your deep denial of the endings make me laugh and cry. Seriously its not indoctrination, its crappy writing. the dreams, the haggard look, etc, can be explained as simple war fatigue and/or PTSD. Seriously people just accept the fact that the Bioware writers got lazy or just didnt give a frak anymore.

Btw if it was indoctrination Bioware would have stated so on the first day that negative PR of the endings started flooding the internet.

So your reasoning why the end of the game was poor was that bioware just did not care anymore and could not be bothered?

Yeah because that makes total sense.  Spend 6-7 years developing and making a game series and in the final 10-15min of the final game, bioware went what the hell lets just bin the rest of it off and go home we have had enough. I can understand bioware going in a different direction with the ending, maybe being miss guided in what they belived made sense.

I don't understand this justification from people that it was just lazyness and lack of effort that gave us the ending.

EDIT: Just to clarify again! I'm not arguing for IT being the ending, (enough done on that already) just trying to see if people think that shepard was undergoing any sort of indoctrination during the game.

Modifié par im commander shep, 18 avril 2012 - 09:57 .

[Abraham_uk]

Let's pretend that the ending actually happened.

Shepard actually interacted with Illusive Man and Admiral David Anderson.
Shepard actually interacted with the "Starchild" who took the form of the child who haunted his dreams.
Shepard actually made one of the three choices.

Even then I still think that Shepard was going through a slow process of Indoctrination. The dreams are the evidence I'm bringing to the table here. In the end, Shepard died when the Citadel was destroyed, before the Indoctrination could take full effect.

[httinks2006]

You people and your deep denial of the endings make me laugh and cry. Seriously its not indoctrination, its crappy writing. the dreams, the haggard look, etc, can be explained as simple war fatigue and/or PTSD. Seriously people just accept the fact that the Bioware writers got lazy or just didnt give a frak anymore.

Btw if it was indoctrination Bioware would have stated so on the first day that negative PR of the endings started flooding the internet.

Not true they stated that they wanted more players to finish the game before they said anything . It's amazing how much more you see when you play additional play throughs and just listen to the npcs in the game . Even talking to your Squadmates and Jarvik can be enlighten . Now I'm also a believer that it was originally planned as Paid Dlc which would have been business suicide if they kept to that idea . Yeah Yeah I know I'm giving them a lot of credit they may or may not deserve , but to me the rest of the writing in the game would make this plausible.

[ElSuperGecko]

im commander shep wrote...

Just to bring the thread back on topic. I am not talking about Indoctrination Theory and the ending if it was a dream/hallucination.

I'm specifically talking about the themes thoughout ME3 and how/if they relate to shepard being indoctrinated.

I think it's pretty much inarguable that Shepard is showing signs of Reaper influence to some extent.  Not necessarily leading to the Indoctrination Theory, but he's definitely  showing signs.

There's so many hints and clues that something's not quite right all the way through the game.  So many conversations with different characters and squad members hit on indoctrination, and question Shepard's state of mind.

It's the first time in a Mass Effect game that we see Shepard looking and sounding less than confident, worried and fatigued.  It's the first tiem we have representations of his subconcious through the dream sequences.

We know from the Final Hours app that Bioware considered and actually attempted to implement an Indoctrination-based game mechanic, but left it out at the very last minute.  The build up to that point however, and all the foreshadowing for it, remains in the game.  Which is why there's so much thought-provoking discussion on the subject.

[Silhouett3]

Plus it doesn't make sense otherwise that every Shepard suddenly feel stressed in ME3, especially because renegade Shep never hesitates to sacrifice people for the greater goal. Shep never visually got so tired after Torfan, Akuze, losing Jenkins at Eden Prime, after sacrificing the alliance officer at Virmire, confronting Wrex, sacrificing Destiny Ascension or Fifth Fleet, destruction of SR-1 and losing all its crew, sacrificing factory workers for Zaeed's loyalty, killing Samara in her loyalty mission, betraying Tali in her loyalty mission, losing the crew of SR-2 and finally kidnappings of thousands of colonist by Collectors. None of these events challenged Shep mentally. Towards the end in ME3 Joker tells that even Hackett told him to be careful about Shep, the hero of humanity. Dream sequences and Shep's reaction afterwards all hints that something is out of place, how else they contribute to the story, why they even exits.. 

How do debunkers explain this? 

[KingZayd]

RX_Sean_XI wrote...

Not in its original way that people describe.

That is why I think of the Attempted Indoctrination Theory (or AIT)

The way it works is that with Shep being so close to Harbinger (being the main Reaper too) and unsonsious the indoctrination process is magnified and Shep is battling for his/her mind (basically explains everything post-beam blast)

Choosing destroy would then break the hold and would still make sense in the game's universe.


But I honestly think that might have been the orignal idea but was scrapped very late in the game's production which would explain all the problems with the ending.

This is also what partly what i believe, except i think it started with Object Rho. The Earthchild is real. The first dream is probably genuine trauma. Later on you start to see reaper influence in the dreams, But in the end, it's the being on the brink of death that allows indoctrination to challenge Shepards will.

[KingZayd]

Morale4HATE wrote...

You people and your deep denial of the endings make me laugh and cry. Seriously its not indoctrination, its crappy writing. the dreams, the haggard look, etc, can be explained as simple war fatigue and/or PTSD. Seriously people just accept the fact that the Bioware writers got lazy or just didnt give a frak anymore.

Btw if it was indoctrination Bioware would have stated so on the first day that negative PR of the endings started flooding the internet.

yes and the PTSD and fatigue help explain how the indoctrination has taken hold of Commander Shepard. 

And stating it was indoc theory without having anything to show for it, well that'd be stupid all round.

[KingZayd]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Plus it doesn't make sense otherwise that every Shepard suddenly feel stressed in ME3, especially because renegade Shep never hesitates to sacrifice people for the greater goal. Shep never visually got so tired after Torfan, Akuze, losing Jenkins at Eden Prime, after sacrificing the alliance officer at Virmire, confronting Wrex, sacrificing Destiny Ascension or Fifth Fleet, destruction of SR-1 and losing all its crew, sacrificing factory workers for Zaeed's loyalty, killing Samara in her loyalty mission, betraying Tali in her loyalty mission, losing the crew of SR-2 and finally kidnappings of thousands of colonist by Collectors. None of these events challenged Shep mentally. Towards the end in ME3 Joker tells that even Hackett told him to be careful about Shep, the hero of humanity. Dream sequences and Shep's reaction afterwards all hints that something is out of place, how else they contribute to the story, why they even exits.. 

How do debunkers explain this? 

they tend to just say "bad writing" for all of these.

[Morale4HATE]

KingZayd wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

Plus it doesn't make sense otherwise that every Shepard suddenly feel stressed in ME3, especially because renegade Shep never hesitates to sacrifice people for the greater goal. Shep never visually got so tired after Torfan, Akuze, losing Jenkins at Eden Prime, after sacrificing the alliance officer at Virmire, confronting Wrex, sacrificing Destiny Ascension or Fifth Fleet, destruction of SR-1 and losing all its crew, sacrificing factory workers for Zaeed's loyalty, killing Samara in her loyalty mission, betraying Tali in her loyalty mission, losing the crew of SR-2 and finally kidnappings of thousands of colonist by Collectors. None of these events challenged Shep mentally. Towards the end in ME3 Joker tells that even Hackett told him to be careful about Shep, the hero of humanity. Dream sequences and Shep's reaction afterwards all hints that something is out of place, how else they contribute to the story, why they even exits.. 

How do debunkers explain this? 

they tend to just say "bad writing" for all of these.

Or the writers just dont give a royal **** anymore

Modifié par Morale4HATE, 18 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[im commander shep]

Morale4HATE wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

Plus it doesn't make sense otherwise that every Shepard suddenly feel stressed in ME3, especially because renegade Shep never hesitates to sacrifice people for the greater goal. Shep never visually got so tired after Torfan, Akuze, losing Jenkins at Eden Prime, after sacrificing the alliance officer at Virmire, confronting Wrex, sacrificing Destiny Ascension or Fifth Fleet, destruction of SR-1 and losing all its crew, sacrificing factory workers for Zaeed's loyalty, killing Samara in her loyalty mission, betraying Tali in her loyalty mission, losing the crew of SR-2 and finally kidnappings of thousands of colonist by Collectors. None of these events challenged Shep mentally. Towards the end in ME3 Joker tells that even Hackett told him to be careful about Shep, the hero of humanity. Dream sequences and Shep's reaction afterwards all hints that something is out of place, how else they contribute to the story, why they even exits.. 

How do debunkers explain this? 

they tend to just say "bad writing" for all of these.

Or the writers just dont give a royal **** anymore

And saying the writers don't care anymore makes even less sense than IT.

[dreman9999]

Morale4HATE wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

Plus it doesn't make sense otherwise that every Shepard suddenly feel stressed in ME3, especially because renegade Shep never hesitates to sacrifice people for the greater goal. Shep never visually got so tired after Torfan, Akuze, losing Jenkins at Eden Prime, after sacrificing the alliance officer at Virmire, confronting Wrex, sacrificing Destiny Ascension or Fifth Fleet, destruction of SR-1 and losing all its crew, sacrificing factory workers for Zaeed's loyalty, killing Samara in her loyalty mission, betraying Tali in her loyalty mission, losing the crew of SR-2 and finally kidnappings of thousands of colonist by Collectors. None of these events challenged Shep mentally. Towards the end in ME3 Joker tells that even Hackett told him to be careful about Shep, the hero of humanity. Dream sequences and Shep's reaction afterwards all hints that something is out of place, how else they contribute to the story, why they even exits.. 

How do debunkers explain this? 

they tend to just say "bad writing" for all of these.

Or the writers just dont give a royal **** anymore

Then why is everything else out side of the ending written so well?

[Silhouett3]

KingZayd wrote...

they tend to just say "bad writing" for all of these.

But that attitude makes it imposible to debate. It's not contribution, just rejection. And why would anyone spend time and effort into persuading others groundless rejection?

Also with that "bad writing" argument one can claim everything including indoctrination and else:

"According to the story Conrad Verner is Shep's son and BTW I don't have to bring any evidence to the table since it's ... you know ... bad writing."

[Morale4HATE]

dreman9999 wrote...

Morale4HATE wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

Plus it doesn't make sense otherwise that every Shepard suddenly feel stressed in ME3, especially because renegade Shep never hesitates to sacrifice people for the greater goal. Shep never visually got so tired after Torfan, Akuze, losing Jenkins at Eden Prime, after sacrificing the alliance officer at Virmire, confronting Wrex, sacrificing Destiny Ascension or Fifth Fleet, destruction of SR-1 and losing all its crew, sacrificing factory workers for Zaeed's loyalty, killing Samara in her loyalty mission, betraying Tali in her loyalty mission, losing the crew of SR-2 and finally kidnappings of thousands of colonist by Collectors. None of these events challenged Shep mentally. Towards the end in ME3 Joker tells that even Hackett told him to be careful about Shep, the hero of humanity. Dream sequences and Shep's reaction afterwards all hints that something is out of place, how else they contribute to the story, why they even exits.. 

How do debunkers explain this? 

they tend to just say "bad writing" for all of these.

Or the writers just dont give a royal **** anymore

Then why is everything else out side of the ending written so well?

Pressed for time. EA breathing down their necks, wanting their cash cow right away.

[Silhouett3]

"Pressed for time. EA breathing down their necks, wanting their cash cow right away."

How does being pressed for time makes writers forget basic writing structure and introduce both a new character and a new conflict at the last minute, plus making a vague sequence showing Normandy crash landed on an unknown planet; instead of just making a less spectacular or plot-holed version of the two previous ME endings?

Being pressed for time is not necessarily trouble for writing either, but it may be for production. Keep in mind that in filmmaking, advertising and in that line of work being pressed for time can even maximize the efficiency of everyone, if not in every case. And here we are talking about a total of ten lines for Reaper child that makes things absurd. So unless it was some intern at Bioware who were given the privilege of writing the ending or the team decided to write it at the last remaining 15 minutes or something I'm not so sure how to explain the ridiculous Reaper child conversation.

Modifié par Silhouett3, 21 avril 2012 - 09:30 .