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[The Protheans]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Here comes the Indoc Trolling collective, grasping at straws when not insulting debaters on their own threads. Normal players are just too stupid to understand the endings, is that so?

www.youtube.com/watch

[BobbyDylan]

dreman9999 wrote...

BobbyDylan wrote...

It's a popular opinion, but there's far from consenus on the matter. Some people (not me) out there really enjoy the endings at face value. The IT (while making a lot of sense IMHO) serves more as a coping mechanism for the crappy ending then a likely intention of the writers.

It's not a coping mechanism...Most people like it because it makes sense. It's logical.

Oh, dont get me wrong, I agree. It makes tons more sense that the Bieber-Reaper telling me he's killing us to save us from being killed.

The only issue i have with the IT is that I think it's very unlikely that it intended as an ending. It may have been so, but scrubbed, or whatever, but I dont think Bioware will take IT and run with it, despite how much I want them to.

[Suikoden]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Here comes the Indoc Trolling collective, grasping at straws when not insulting debaters on their own threads. Normal players are just too stupid to understand the endings, is that so?

You realize you're trolling...

[Iconoclaste]

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Of course, who cares, since it's only a "dream". And no worry to have either, because stupid Reapers will have Shepard "dream" of the "Red Kill Switch" thus giving him a chance to defeat them. Wise Reapers.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[Meltemph]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Whether the IT theory is ture or not, you do realize that Shep was hit with the same type of indoc device that TIM was hit with, back in the arrival DLC right?  The same type of device that permanently changed TIM forever and taht also knocked Shep out for 2 days.

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Before you start with the arguement of Circumstancal... You need to understand the facts first before arguing...

fact 1. People are
indoctrinated by being near reapers and reaper tech. 

fact 2. People that
at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.

Fact 3.Shepard is
near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.

Fact 4. Shepard is
hit by an indoctrination field in the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions
and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

fact5.Indoctrination does not just go
away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis

Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate
dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s

Fact 7. Reapers can indoctrinatewith quantum intanglement.

Fact8. You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related 
.....
Really, all that is a concidence.

fact 1: ...for an extended period of time. Shiala and Beneziah both described it as a slow progress, where you slowly want to trust Saren/Sovereign before you actually start to hear voices.

fact 2: at what stage of the Indoctrination? I'd think it was pretty much the End, where the Reapers almost completely control you.

fact 3: for a short time frame. And your Squadmembers (Garrus, Tali) were as well. But apparently they aren't affected.

fact 4: indoctrination field? Sorry, but that's not a fact, it's speculation. It could be just an energy wave (Mass Effect Field). Kenson was being controlled by Harbinger (assuming direct control) is another way to see that scene.

fact 5: Assumption. We never learn when exactly Rana became indoctrinated. There were at least 6 Months between ME2 and 3. Who knows what she has been up to in that time.

fact 6: After some time, yes. The Cerberus Agents had been working on the derelict Reaper for a while before their dreams were influenced.

fact 7: Yes, so?

fact 8: I sometimes hear whispers in my Nightmares as well

Also: At no Point do we actually "hear" something new. The Whispers in the dream are things that have been said to Shepard. The Reapers should try to influence Shepard, push him/her in a certain way. The dreams don't have any influence on the way the Game is going. No ancient tablet that only Shepard can translate.....

1. Shepar has been dealing with reaper tech over 3 years plus being hit by object rho.....That's extended time.
2.They hear it at the early part of indoctination....That's not something that only happen in advance stages.
3.Your squad doesn't have anywhere near the level of exposure that Shepard has...He /She has the most. Shepard is guarrantteed to be on every mission...Your scuad is not.
4.It's a fact.......You get vision, hear voices...And it's a reaper device, which all have been show to indoctrinat...Remeber planet husk in ME2? The object is just like it.
5.Not an assumption at all. That is an illustrated fact. She was near sovergn in ME1 for a good while...And by chance she staerts acting like a reaper sleeper agent in ME3? sORRY, THAT'S NOT AN ASSUMPTION.
6.And then there is the reachers on object rho....My point is the reaper can effect dreams.
7.That means long distace indoctrination
8.No, really no one would remeber whispers in dreams...Also...It far worse then you think.... 

No let make it clear what it mean. Shepard had 3 year of on and off contact with reapers and reaper tech which can indoctriate people who are near over time. He then gets hit by an indoctrinatin wave from object rho, which is simular to the reaper device on planet husk in ME2 and also is a reaper divice that indoctrinated everyone on the project. The reaper can also do long distance QEC indoctrination. In ME3 Shep happen to have strang dreams with whisper in it....And it's been stated that reapers can effect dreams and the person in the process of being indoctrinated hear whisper..(And don't say you never hear whispers inthe dream...I have video proof...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related )...And your saying it all happening by chance asthe reapers are invading, even though there's is a serise of events in ME1 and 2 that show it can happen because of all the contact Shep has with reaper tech......
And it's by chance? Do you use deductive reasoning?

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Of course, who cares, since it's only a "dream". And no worry to have either, because stupid Reapers will have Shepard "dream" of the "Red Kill Switch" thus giving him a chance to defeat them. Wise Reapers.

...I can counter this in a billion ways...But I have to ask first....How does TIM control Anderson?

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 08:57 .

[Iconoclaste]

Meltemph wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Whether the IT theory is ture or not, you do realize that Shep was hit with the same type of indoc device that TIM was hit with, back in the arrival DLC right?  The same type of device that permanently changed TIM forever and taht also knocked Shep out for 2 days.

Arrival is DLC, I've seen a discussion about making DLC "canon" or not : is it fair for players who didn't buy DLC to force Arrival on them?

But whatever. All of ME3 Shepard remains true to his goal, which is shared with is superiors : to destroy the Reapers. He even gets the same "Red zapping beam" at the very beginning of the game, after a first Reaper destroys the meeting room. Shepard gets knocked out for a moment, then stands up and resumes the run with Anderson. Not endoctrinated yet. Or was he? Ah! Yes, the kid in the vent, magically "disappearing" and being there besides the shuttle, out of nowhere. But he's not transparent! The same kid we saw playing with a toy ship at the very beginning.

Only problem I have with IT is that it could even take the moon and make it look a bit strange, so it's a result of indoctrination. There are just soooo many bugs and bits and pieces of imprecision in all the game (it's just a game, not a documentary!) that to make all imperfections a "supporting fact" for IT has became plainly ridiculous.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 avril 2012 - 08:58 .

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Of course, who cares, since it's only a "dream". And no worry to have either, because stupid Reapers will have Shepard "dream" of the "Red Kill Switch" thus giving him a chance to defeat them. Wise Reapers.

...I can counter this in a billion ways...But I havetoask first....How does TIM control Anderson?

What makes you believe that TIM controls Anderson?

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Whether the IT theory is ture or not, you do realize that Shep was hit with the same type of indoc device that TIM was hit with, back in the arrival DLC right?  The same type of device that permanently changed TIM forever and taht also knocked Shep out for 2 days.

Arrival is DLC, I've seen a discussion about making DLC "canon" or not : is it fair for players who didn't buy DLC to force Arrival on them?

It's canon..It happen no matter if the player, played it or not. No arguing it.

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Whether the IT theory is ture or not, you do realize that Shep was hit with the same type of indoc device that TIM was hit with, back in the arrival DLC right?  The same type of device that permanently changed TIM forever and taht also knocked Shep out for 2 days.

Arrival is DLC, I've seen a discussion about making DLC "canon" or not : is it fair for players who didn't buy DLC to force Arrival on them?

It's canon..It happen no matter if the player, played it or not. No arguing it.

Tell me more about Shepard siding with the Reapers in any way following that!

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Of course, who cares, since it's only a "dream". And no worry to have either, because stupid Reapers will have Shepard "dream" of the "Red Kill Switch" thus giving him a chance to defeat them. Wise Reapers.

...I can counter this in a billion ways...But I havetoask first....How does TIM control Anderson?

What makes you believe that TIM controls Anderson?

Because I use reason and my eyes. And the fact that anderson can't move...Just like Shepard.
So...How is TIM controling Anderson?

[justafan]

I am of the opinion that TIM's control on the citadel shows proof that Shepard has on some level been indoctrinated. There is nothing to suggest otherwise (Cerberus nanobots is not an answer, it took dramatic surgery to make those Cerberus Troops controllable) and it makes sense given all the effort TIM has put into being able to control indoctrinated forces and all the time Shep has been around reaper tech.

Whether this is enough to support the IT, while I wish it was, I am also of the opinion that the IT is simply the fans putting more thought into the endings than the writers. I would love to be proven wrong, but until the summer, it will remain just a theory to me.

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Of course, who cares, since it's only a "dream". And no worry to have either, because stupid Reapers will have Shepard "dream" of the "Red Kill Switch" thus giving him a chance to defeat them. Wise Reapers.

...I can counter this in a billion ways...But I havetoask first....How does TIM control Anderson?

What makes you believe that TIM controls Anderson?

Because I use reason and my eyes. And the fact that anderson can't move...Just like Shepard.
So...How is TIM controling Anderson?

Having someone paralyzed with biotic powers is something similar to what we can see done by crewmates during all 3 games, that doesn't mean TIM has "endoctrinated" Anderson! Does he succeed in having Anderson doing anything for him, other than just being paralyzed? Anderson even has the power to raise his hand to try to protect himself from the bullet Shepard is about to shoot through him. Does TIM make him do that?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 avril 2012 - 09:06 .

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Whether the IT theory is ture or not, you do realize that Shep was hit with the same type of indoc device that TIM was hit with, back in the arrival DLC right?  The same type of device that permanently changed TIM forever and taht also knocked Shep out for 2 days.

Arrival is DLC, I've seen a discussion about making DLC "canon" or not : is it fair for players who didn't buy DLC to force Arrival on them?

It's canon..It happen no matter if the player, played it or not. No arguing it.

Tell me more about Shepard siding with the Reapers in any way following that!

Hey, hears a fact from ME1...indoctrintaion is not instantanious...It takes time......
And guess what.....The theory state Shep is in the process of indoctrination....A precess being appled by a QEC connection to the reapers...
And guess what...INDOCTRINATION IS SUBTLE.. And what more subtle the tryong to indoctrinatio some while they sleep...

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Shepard is utterly FILLED with Cerberus implants. Being IT's "Reaper tech everywhere" does change nuts to that. TIM was just too wise to risk losing Shepard, so it is just a reasonable assumption that he was able to CONTROL Shepard's movements with plain bio-whatever commands on Cerberus manufactured chips, rather than a last minute miraculous Reaper ability coming from nowhere.

Of course, who cares, since it's only a "dream". And no worry to have either, because stupid Reapers will have Shepard "dream" of the "Red Kill Switch" thus giving him a chance to defeat them. Wise Reapers.

...I can counter this in a billion ways...But I havetoask first....How does TIM control Anderson?

What makes you believe that TIM controls Anderson?

Because I use reason and my eyes. And the fact that anderson can't move...Just like Shepard.
So...How is TIM controling Anderson?

Having someone paralyzed with biotic powers is something similar to what we can see done by crewmates during all 3 games, that doesn't mean TIM has "endoctrinated" Anderson! Does he succeed in having Anderson doing anything for him, other than just being paralyzed? Anderson even has the power to raise his hand to try to protect himself from the bullet Shepard is about to shoot through him. Does TIM make him do that?

The two power that do that is stasis and domination...Stasis puts  the taget in a feild where they can't move at all, not even to talk...Domination make them mindless and they do anything the caster say...
Anderson is staggering and has no feild over him...So it's not stasis....And Anderson still has consuse though and can talk on his own...So it's no domination...
So it not boitics then....So, agian I ask...How is TIM controling Anderson?

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 09:11 .

[Iconoclaste]

Stop running the broken record, dude. We all know what indoc is, and having Shepard dream of the way to kill the Reapers is nothing subtle at all.

[Auralius Carolus]

Well, Shepard has more than been around his fair share of Reapers and Reaper relics. Probably the single most compelling moment was when Object Rho stunned Shepard, and the Commander began to hear Harbinger.

Was Harbinger is his head? Was he in control of one of the soldiers or speaking through Rho? I honestly don't know, but Rho did force itself on Shepard and Harbinger did announce his intention to take over Shepards mind. Considering what happened to everyone else that messed with the Object, Shepard likely has been fighting it, (or from some other source if you never got Arrival).

Then again, Bioware has a history of "Toxic" enemies that are supposed to be dangerous to come in contact with, but never affect the main protagonist or his/her crew. For example, the Darkspawn- you touch the blood, you risk being corrupted. In Dragon Age and part of DA2, your non-Warden characters practically bathe in it and nothing ever happens. So... SPECULATION!

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Stop running the broken record, dude. We all know what indoc is, and having Shepard dream of the way to kill the Reapers is nothing subtle at all.

Yes, it is subtle...Why because that the end Shep doesn't know it's a dream. Also, indoctrination someone when they are asleep keeps them from knowing they are being indoctrinated. To say it not subtle is to state to take something or leave while a person is sleeping is the least sublte way to do that with the person there.

[Little Princess Peach]

It is a popular opinion the It thing but they also said that shepard wakes up on earth when it's clear she/he stayed atthe citedel

[dreman9999]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Well, Shepard has more than been around his fair share of Reapers and Reaper relics. Probably the single most compelling moment was when Object Rho stunned Shepard, and the Commander began to hear Harbinger.

Was Harbinger is his head? Was he in control of one of the soldiers or speaking through Rho? I honestly don't know, but Rho did force itself on Shepard and Harbinger did announce his intention to take over Shepards mind. Considering what happened to everyone else that messed with the Object, Shepard likely has been fighting it, (or from some other source if you never got Arrival).

Then again, Bioware has a history of "Toxic" enemies that are supposed to be dangerous to come in contact with, but never affect the main protagonist or his/her crew. For example, the Darkspawn- you touch the blood, you risk being corrupted. In Dragon Age and part of DA2, your non-Warden characters practically bathe in it and nothing ever happens. So... SPECULATION!

What about the fade in DA: O....?

[Iconoclaste]

dreman9999 wrote...

The two power that do that is stasis and domination...Stasis puts  the taget in a feild where they can't move at all, not even to talk...Domination make them mindless and they do anything the caster say...
Anderson is staggering and has no feild over him...So it's not stasis....And Anderson still has consuse though and can talk on his own...So it's no domination...
So it not boitics then....So, agian I ask...How is TIM controling Anderson?

So, he's not dreaming that part anymore, then?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 avril 2012 - 09:17 .

[DJBare]

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

BobbyDylan wrote...

It's a popular opinion, but there's far from consenus on the matter. Some people (not me) out there really enjoy the endings at face value. The IT (while making a lot of sense IMHO) serves more as a coping mechanism for the crappy ending then a likely intention of the writers.

It's not a coping mechanism...Most people like it because it makes sense. It's logical.

No, it's a coping mechanism, and it only makes sense because people want it too.

I'd say it was the other way round, people don't like the idea of being fooled, which is what indoc would essentially be.

[ElSuperGecko]

....and once again, the people supporting the Indoctrination Theory give reasonable example to support their assumptions, while the people arguing against them act and post like butthurt whiners. Good job, that's how you discuss things sensibly.

[Iconoclaste]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

....and once again, the people supporting the Indoctrination Theory give reasonable example to support their assumptions, while the people arguing against them act and post like butthurt whiners. Good job, that's how you discuss things sensibly.

What is your supporting argument, here? Are you not exactly just whining?