421 réponses à ce sujet

[Silhouett3]

It's canon that the process of indoctrination at least started for Shepard - Shep may not lost his/her mind yet, unlike Saren after Virmire, Benezia and TIM for the most part - bu it has started.  ME3 has a couple little clues of it.

When did it happen? Look no other than The Arrival mission, which is the only mission in whole series Shepard goes solo, the only mission Shep got hit by a Reaper artifact, the only mission during which Shep lost consciousness for 2 days,  the only mission Reapers emphasis their intention of indoctrinating Shepard ("your mind will be mine" ).

[Ryven]

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

[ElSuperGecko]

Iconoclaste wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

....and once again, the people supporting the Indoctrination Theory give reasonable example to support their assumptions, while the people arguing against them act and post like butthurt whiners. Good job, that's how you discuss things sensibly.

What is your supporting argument, here? Are you not exactly just whining?

I don't support the Indoctrination Theory.

But I don't try to shout down those that do with insults.

Honestly, you're embarrassing.

[Iconoclaste]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

....and once again, the people supporting the Indoctrination Theory give reasonable example to support their assumptions, while the people arguing against them act and post like butthurt whiners. Good job, that's how you discuss things sensibly.

What is your supporting argument, here? Are you not exactly just whining?

I don't support the Indoctrination Theory.

But I don't try to shout down those that do with insults.

Honestly, you're embarrassing.

Go on their own thread and tell them the reasons you don't support IT, then come back here, we'll talk about it. For now, I don't think I will rely on your experience to make my opinion.

[United_Strafes]

Um no I'm pretty sure we don't agree, we've seen the endings, Shepard wasn't being indoctrinated, they said the endings aren't gonna change, just be expanded and explained better, so there's really nothing to understand, ya it's a theory, but it's just that, the endings are what they are, no indoctrination.

Modifié par United_Strafes, 17 avril 2012 - 09:34 .

[Oransel]

I prefer to support IT. While it is not official, has it's problems and probably was developed through hints as possible "emergency exit" by part of the Bioware team who have not agreed with game ending, it is logical and narrative complied. StarBieber is insult to my brain. IT is not perfect, but it is the closest thing to consider true game experience (unless Bioware will have guts and will to remake everything from Thessia or at least Reaper beam).

[Domanese]

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

Good question Xydorn.

Personally I'm of the mindset that theres a few cutscenes missing from the final choices and that the game is not wholly finished. I'm honestly expecting the extended ending to tack on extra cutscenes during and after the ending picked.

Sure theres no gameplay but it's not needed to complete the endings and confirm IT. 

[justafan]

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

I've only headcanoned the IT theory, so I don't know if I count as a "believer," but as such I don't think there will be a Truth DLC.  Back when i first finished ME3 and saw the IT theory, I jumped on board and almost expected the new DLC to be released within a month.  However, given the Bioware and EA responses to the disaster that was the current ending, I just can't see how the IT theory could have been the original intention.

Do I hope that the EC will equal the IT, yes.  Do I expect it to, no, I think the game is "complete" in that this is what Bioware intended ME3 to be in the first place.

[Ryven]

justafan wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

I've only headcanoned the IT theory, so I don't know if I count as a "believer," but as such I don't think there will be a Truth DLC.  Back when i first finished ME3 and saw the IT theory, I jumped on board and almost expected the new DLC to be released within a month.  However, given the Bioware and EA responses to the disaster that was the current ending, I just can't see how the IT theory could have been the original intention.

Do I hope that the EC will equal the IT, yes.  Do I expect it to, no, I think the game is "complete" in that this is what Bioware intended ME3 to be in the first place.

I was just wondering. I could see how it could be a cool idea if The Truth DLC was real (I too never put much hope into it). But if the IT was the case and that is how they left it I think I would be even more upset at the endings lol. But thats just me. I was just trying to figure out the appeal of it.

Thanks for the info.

[Shermos]

Only in the final TIM conversation. I don't accept IT at all.

[ElSuperGecko]

Iconoclaste wrote...
Go on their own thread and tell them the reasons you don't support IT, then come back here, we'll talk about it. For now, I don't think I will rely on your experience to make my opinion.

Oh, I've discussed Indoctrination Theory and the reasoning for and against plenty of times, with plenty of people, on plenty of forums, and I've always had productive and interesting conversations.

But of course, I've always been polite and willing to look at both sides of the debate.

Maybe if you stop acting like a self-righteous tool "they" (really, "them" and "us", is it?)  might be a bit more receptive to your guesses and assumptions as well?

[Suikoden]

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

You won't get a consensus answer regarding whether or not IT supporters find the game to be complete.  Personally, I believe it's true and I do find the game to be complete - and I expect the upcoming DLC to flesh it out for people that don't get it yet.

I don't believe that the DLC will expand upon the literal endings, mainly because if you take them at face-value, the results are sooo vastly different.  I can't see Bioware fleshing out broad stroke alternate epilogues based on your choice(s) - whereas the IT provides the opportunity for a cumulative ending that can still be filled in with minor strokes of the brush based on your actions leading up to that point in the game.

[Iconoclaste]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Go on their own thread and tell them the reasons you don't support IT, then come back here, we'll talk about it. For now, I don't think I will rely on your experience to make my opinion.

Oh, I've discussed Indoctrination Theory and the reasoning for and against plenty of times, with plenty of people, on plenty of forums, and I've always had productive and interesting conversations.

But of course, I've always been polite and willing to look at both sides of the debate.

Maybe if you stop acting like a self-righteous tool "they" (really, "them" and "us", is it?)  might be a bit more receptive to your guesses and assumptions as well?

Well, lucky you! I did also stay polite for the time I had some different opinions around with me, but when they left and I was alone with Wild Bill and friends, I was litterally told to go hang myself. I saved the link because they themselves realised they had gone too far. I just tried to discuss the possibility that Shepard might have survived the "fatal explosion" and still be on the Citadel, but that just ruined their plan. They started acting like kids.

So, again, you may have had a wonderful experience with them, I'm just happy for you. I still believe the part with the Catalyst to be a possible last ditch effort to endoctrinate Shepard into making the wrong choice, but I don't swallow the "all dream version" of IT. But I'm not going to tell you how to deal with them, so please refrain doing so with me, OK?

Having some of them get on this thread and start saying that those who don't support IT just don't get it reminds me of the pro-enders that pretended "they" understood the endings. Maybe you can remember the reaction. I have no sympathy for self-sufficience, especially when it's not based on an individual work, but on a collective meme repeating party.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 avril 2012 - 09:58 .

[justafan]

Xydorn wrote...

justafan wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

I've only headcanoned the IT theory, so I don't know if I count as a "believer," but as such I don't think there will be a Truth DLC.  Back when i first finished ME3 and saw the IT theory, I jumped on board and almost expected the new DLC to be released within a month.  However, given the Bioware and EA responses to the disaster that was the current ending, I just can't see how the IT theory could have been the original intention.

Do I hope that the EC will equal the IT, yes.  Do I expect it to, no, I think the game is "complete" in that this is what Bioware intended ME3 to be in the first place.

I was just wondering. I could see how it could be a cool idea if The Truth DLC was real (I too never put much hope into it). But if the IT was the case and that is how they left it I think I would be even more upset at the endings lol. But thats just me. I was just trying to figure out the appeal of it.

Thanks for the info.

Happy to help.  The appeal of the IT for me was that it made a lot of sense (especially compared to the current endings) and had plenty of possible forshadowing.  But you make a good point that the thought that Bioware would release a game without an ending is arguably worse than the current situation.

[Silhouett3]

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

Irrevelant question. Ending at face value makes it a broken story, turns the antagonist to protogonist and violetes basic writing structure : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11451470/1

Also off-topic question. Please refer to the IT thread and don't troll.

[Ryven]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

Irrevelant question. Ending at face value makes it a broken story, turns the antagonist to protogonist and violetes basic writing structure : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11451470/1

Also off-topic question. Please refer to the IT thread and don't troll.

Are you saying I was trolling? I simply asked a question I was curious about

[Iconoclaste]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

Irrevelant question. Ending at face value makes it a broken story, turns the antagonist to protogonist and violetes basic writing structure : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11451470/1

Also off-topic question. Please refer to the IT thread and don't troll.

Here we go again! An irrelevant question? I believe you mean the only relevant questions are the ones YOU decide should be asked. Who's Trolling threads, now?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 avril 2012 - 10:06 .

[The Protheans]

Iconoclaste wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...
Go on their own thread and tell them the reasons you don't support IT, then come back here, we'll talk about it. For now, I don't think I will rely on your experience to make my opinion.

Oh, I've discussed Indoctrination Theory and the reasoning for and against plenty of times, with plenty of people, on plenty of forums, and I've always had productive and interesting conversations.

But of course, I've always been polite and willing to look at both sides of the debate.

Maybe if you stop acting like a self-righteous tool "they" (really, "them" and "us", is it?)  might be a bit more receptive to your guesses and assumptions as well?

Well, lucky you! I did also stay polite for the time I had some different opinions around with me, but when they left and I was alone with Wild Bill and friends, I was litterally told to go hang myself. I saved the link because they themselves realised they had gone too far. I just tried to discuss the possibility that Shepard might have survived the "fatal explosion" and still be on the Citadel, but that just ruined their plan. They started acting like kids.

So, again, you may have had a wonderful experience with them, I'm just happy for you. I still believe the part with the Catalyst to be a possible last ditch effort to endoctrinate Shepard into making the wrong choice, but I don't swallow the "all dream version" of IT. But I'm not going to tell you how to deal with them, so please refrain doing so with me, OK?

Having some of them get on this thread and start saying that those who don't support IT just don't get it reminds me of the pro-enders that pretended "they" understood the endings. Maybe you can remember the reaction. I have no sympathy for self-sufficience, especially when it's not based on an individual work, but on a collective meme repeating party.

You're indoctrinated. 

[The Protheans]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

Irrevelant question. Ending at face value makes it a broken story, turns the antagonist to protogonist and violetes basic writing structure : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11451470/1

Also off-topic question. Please refer to the IT thread and don't troll.

Here we go again! An irrelevant question? I believe you mean the only relevant questions are the ones YOU decide should be asked. Who's Trolling threads, now?

The game isn't over, shepard needs to wake up an continue the fight against the Reapers.

[Iconoclaste]

The Protheans wrote...

You're indoctrinated.

You just don't know how to support this without making you also indoctrinated.

[Iconoclaste]

The Protheans wrote...

The game isn't over, shepard needs to wake up an continue the fight against the Reapers.

Wishful thinking that was quite contradicted by everything Bioware said to date.

[wryterra]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Before you start with the arguement of Circumstancal... You need to understand the facts first before arguing...

fact 1. People are
indoctrinated by being near reapers and reaper tech. 

fact 2. People that
at are under the process of indoctrination here whispers.

Fact 3.Shepard is
near allot of reaper tech through out ME1 and ME2.

Fact 4. Shepard is
hit by an indoctrination field in the arrival dlc, in which he see's visions
and hears voices....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

fact5.Indoctrination does not just go
away...http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis

Fact 6. The reapers can manipulate
dreams...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ldIJFRvDUp4#t=690s

Fact 7. Reapers can indoctrinatewith quantum intanglement.

Fact8. You hear whispers in sheps dreams....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related 
.....
Really, all that is a concidence.

fact 1: ...for an extended period of time. Shiala and Beneziah both described it as a slow progress, where you slowly want to trust Saren/Sovereign before you actually start to hear voices.

fact 2: at what stage of the Indoctrination? I'd think it was pretty much the End, where the Reapers almost completely control you.

fact 3: for a short time frame. And your Squadmembers (Garrus, Tali) were as well. But apparently they aren't affected.

fact 4: indoctrination field? Sorry, but that's not a fact, it's speculation. It could be just an energy wave (Mass Effect Field). Kenson was being controlled by Harbinger (assuming direct control) is another way to see that scene.

fact 5: Assumption. We never learn when exactly Rana became indoctrinated. There were at least 6 Months between ME2 and 3. Who knows what she has been up to in that time.

fact 6: After some time, yes. The Cerberus Agents had been working on the derelict Reaper for a while before their dreams were influenced.

fact 7: Yes, so?

fact 8: I sometimes hear whispers in my Nightmares as well

Also: At no Point do we actually "hear" something new. The Whispers in the dream are things that have been said to Shepard. The Reapers should try to influence Shepard, push him/her in a certain way. The dreams don't have any influence on the way the Game is going. No ancient tablet that only Shepard can translate.....

answer 1: rapid indoctrination exists, if you read around the subject. That said, Shepard's been 'around Reaper tech' constantly for a while now. 

answer 2: very early accoarding to the books and worsening 

answer 3: not for a short time, no. The implants inside Shepard are reaper tech. Those are physically inside her all of the time for a long time. 

answer 4: it's speculation based on the almost identical device in TIM's origin story in the books/comics

[shodiswe]

The game and writers have never confirmed it in anyway... however... the illusive man controlling Shepard... How else could it hapen? Personaly I don't want to belive it. Maybe Shepard and anderson was only slightly affected but the close proximity to whatever controll implants the illusive man had that doctor install just before he went for the citadel might be strong enough when he was standing right next to shepard...

Another question would be, why hasn't shepard got more to tell the catalyst? It's the one big thing that grinds me about the whole catalyst event.... Shepards out of character behaviour, the loss of shepards masterful articlatory skills... Shepard could broker peace between the Geth and quarrians and talk down a warmongering quarrian admiral that had previously been shooting at your location if it could kill a few more geth.. But at the end shepard can barely formulate whole sentences...

Modifié par shodiswe, 17 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Shepar has been dealing with reaper tech over 3 years plus being hit by object rho.....That's extended time.
2.They hear it at the early part of indoctination....That's not something that only happen in advance stages.
3.Your squad doesn't have anywhere near the level of exposure that Shepard has...He /She has the most. Shepard is guarrantteed to be on every mission...Your scuad is not.
4.It's a fact.......You get vision, hear voices...And it's a reaper device, which all have been show to indoctrinat...Remeber planet husk in ME2? The object is just like it.
5.Not an assumption at all. That is an illustrated fact. She was near sovergn in ME1 for a good while...And by chance she staerts acting like a reaper sleeper agent in ME3? sORRY, THAT'S NOT AN ASSUMPTION.
6.And then there is the reachers on object rho....My point is the reaper can effect dreams.
7.That means long distace indoctrination
8.No, really no one would remeber whispers in dreams...Also...It far worse then you think.... 

No let make it clear what it mean. Shepard had 3 year of on and off contact with reapers and reaper tech which can indoctriate people who are near over time. He then gets hit by an indoctrinatin wave from object rho, which is simular to the reaper device on planet husk in ME2 and also is a reaper divice that indoctrinated everyone on the project. The reaper can also do long distance QEC indoctrination. In ME3 Shep happen to have strang dreams with whisper in it....And it's been stated that reapers can effect dreams and the person in the process of being indoctrinated hear whisper..(And don't say you never hear whispers inthe dream...I have video proof...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKewKW9bb0&feature=related )...And your saying it all happening by chance asthe reapers are invading, even though there's is a serise of events in ME1 and 2 that show it can happen because of all the contact Shep has with reaper tech......
And it's by chance? Do you use deductive reasoning?

1.) We still don't know how indoctrination exactly works. So saying that the Process starts when you are in the Presence of Reapers, stops when you leave and can be resumed when in the Presence once again is an assumption. And not backed up by the Game (afaik).
2.) Source? In Arrival it apparently took quite a while before they started dreaming about the Reapers and started to question their idea of stopping the Reapers. The Whispers came after that.
3.) So for them it's not extended time? Shepard is apparently a unique case. Kinda hard to argue against it if you can't compare it to others.
4.) What? You get knocked out by the energy wave. You see Kenson crouching in front of you with the same glowing eyes Harbingers "Assuming direct Control" had on the Collectors. No Visions, no Voices. Just the Game proving once and for all that Kenson is indoctrinated.
Huskification is NOT indoctrination. Husks are created with Dragon Teeth.
5.) That would mean that she was inodctrinated in ME2. Why didn't she do anything back then? In ME3 the Reapers invade. And it's a FACT that Rana always ends up working for *ahem* interesting characters. Is it really that hard to imagine that she was helping someone study Reaper Tech and was indoctrinated then?
6.) Yes, after some time. The Researchers build the Research Outpost, found the Signal send to the Reapers, figured out that the Reapers were coming, build the Engines and THEN started dreaming/hearing voices.
7.) ........ Sorry what? The Dragon Teeth implant Nanites which connect the Husks to the Reapers (Quantum Entaglement). Husks standing close to other Humans might indoctrinate them over time. But without connection they can't indoctrinate you.
8.)  I sometimes remember my Nightmares, quite clearly in fact. And sometimes there is whispering in the background. Shepards dreams can be explained with PTSD. I don't like it, but there are more explanations then "Indoctrination".

3 years of Reaper Contact, 2 Years of which were spent in a coma. Again, if being in the Presence of a Reaper ONCE is enough to start the Process and through QE the Process continues even when not in the Presence of the Reapers, all your Squadmates should be indoctrinated by now.
What Reaper Contact did we have? Sovereign was on top of the Citadel Tower, we were inside. Short time on the Derelict Reaper. And then the Optional Content.

"And it's by chance? Do you use deductive reasoning?"

Yes, but i'm also keeping an open Mind. I like the Indoctrination Theory. But i don't see it as the only explanation. Is it possible that Rana was indoctrinated back in ME1? Yeah, sure. Is it possible that she wasn't indoctrinated until well into ME3? Yes.

Oh, afaik the QEC Theory is based on Graysons "indoctrination". The one where he is directly implanted with Reaper tech to stuy the effects that has on a Person.

[ElSuperGecko]

Iconoclaste wrote...
So, again, you may have had a wonderful experience with them, I'm just happy for you. I still believe the part with the Catalyst to be a possible last ditch effort to endoctrinate Shepard into making the wrong choice, but I don't swallow the "all dream version" of IT. But I'm not going to tell you how to deal with them, so please refrain doing so with me, OK?

Amusingly, that's quite similar to how I read the endings myself.  I'm not sure the Catalyst is trying to indoctrinate Shepard, but it IS working towards it's own agenda and trying to influence Shep's decision.

But saying the entire end sequence is nothing more than a dream or hallucination is just as extreme as saying that the en sequences should be taken completely at face value.  It's not black and white, it's somewhere in between the two.