421 réponses à ce sujet

[ashwind]

There are 2 types of indoctrination.

Rapid indoctrination. Subject loses mind become less of himself and more a thrall.

Slow indoctrination. Subject slowly becomes more agreeable with the Reapers through their own reasoning.

Those who are being indoctrinated hear voices in their head, whispers. Even some weak willed monkey complains about the whisper. I never saw Shepard experience that, Shepard never complain that he is hearing voices or having disorganized thoughts or memory lapses. All signs of Indoctrination since ME1.

Even those who are nearly fully controlled by the Reapers; in-plans and all: Saren, TIM and Benezia to a lesser extend can have a moment of clarity every now and then. They can even put a gun to their head to end the indoctrination. Why would the Reapers want to do this to Shepard? Is "your" Shepard's will power that of a whining Quarian with a tummy-ache?? What good does it do to indoctrinate someone who is sure to put a bullet through his skull in less than a day. Or is Harbinger assuming full control and destroy Shepard's mind.

Why is Shepard walking "TOWARDS" an exploding conduit while trying to shoot it out in the Destroy ending? So he can be close to the explosion? He is no more than 5-8 feet away from a target that is 2x his size, even a blind bat cannot miss. If there is anything to the indoctrination theory, it is what Harbinger means by "This hurts you", trick Shepard into walking towards a bomb and shooting it. Alas, with enough EMS, Shepard will wake up to find himself paralyzed from the explosion.

Indoctrination theory is reading too much into ambient. TRYING very hard to grab whatever they can to believe it make sense but in truth there is as much sense in this theory as there is in the ending.

Modifié par ashwind, 17 avril 2012 - 10:24 .

[Iconoclaste]

shodiswe wrote...

The game and writers have never confirmed it in anyway... however... the illusive man controlling Shepard... How else could it hapen? Personaly I don't want to belive it. Maybe Shepard and anderson was only slightly affected but the close proximity to whatever controll implants the illusive man had that doctor install just before he went for the citadel might be strong enough when he was standing right next to shepard...

Another question would be, why hasn't shepard got more to tell the catalyst? It's the one big thing that grinds me about the whole catalyst event.... Shepards out of character behaviour, the loss of shepards masterful articlatory skills... Shepard could broker peace between the Geth and quarrians and talk down a warmongering quarrian admiral that had previously been shooting at your location if it could kill a few more geth.. But at the end shepard can barely formulate whole sentences...

Biotic fields of effect can easily grapple a group of enemies, TIM is no ordinary villain, speculation is "bar open", but I don't think he has any "brainpower" to suggest thoughts through Shepard's mind. As for the Catalyst, the IT was there at the very beginning of the outcry after the first players finished the game, and many had a chance to read the burgeoning theory. It was sound to believe that, for that part, since Shepard goes up on an elevator that "fades in the light", Shepard might have hallucinated the transparent kid and conversation. But having Shepard still sleeping in London is a far stretch from there, with as much plot holes in it than the real story.

[Ryven]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

Xydorn wrote...

Just a question for the IT believers out there. This is a genuine question.

Do you guys consider the game complete? Or are you expecting "The Truth" dlc to be real?

I've honestly been curious and just wanted to know. Thanks guys.

Irrevelant question. Ending at face value makes it a broken story, turns the antagonist to protogonist and violetes basic writing structure : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11451470/1

Also off-topic question. Please refer to the IT thread and don't troll.

Here we go again! An irrelevant question? I believe you mean the only relevant questions are the ones YOU decide should be asked. Who's Trolling threads, now?

Yeah. I'm not sure where that came from. I apologize if I had offended anyone with my question. I assure you it was sincere. Sure I try to make funny comments in other threads to lighten the mood but my question here was serious.

Wow. Never been accused of trolling before. Maybe I am a natural at it. 4chan, here I come!
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OH GOD!!! MY EYES!!!! What have I done!!! I need an old priest and a young priest!

[Sweawm]

Iconoclaste wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The game and writers have never confirmed it in anyway... however... the illusive man controlling Shepard... How else could it hapen? Personaly I don't want to belive it. Maybe Shepard and anderson was only slightly affected but the close proximity to whatever controll implants the illusive man had that doctor install just before he went for the citadel might be strong enough when he was standing right next to shepard...

Another question would be, why hasn't shepard got more to tell the catalyst? It's the one big thing that grinds me about the whole catalyst event.... Shepards out of character behaviour, the loss of shepards masterful articlatory skills... Shepard could broker peace between the Geth and quarrians and talk down a warmongering quarrian admiral that had previously been shooting at your location if it could kill a few more geth.. But at the end shepard can barely formulate whole sentences...

Biotic fields of effect can easily grapple a group of enemies, TIM is no ordinary villain, speculation is "bar open", but I don't think he has any "brainpower" to suggest thoughts through Shepard's mind. As for the Catalyst, the IT was there at the very beginning of the outcry after the first players finished the game, and many had a chance to read the burgeoning theory. It was sound to believe that, for that part, since Shepard goes up on an elevator that "fades in the light", Shepard might have hallucinated the transparent kid and conversation. But having Shepard still sleeping in London is a far stretch from there, with as much plot holes in it than the real story.

I agree that maybe Indoctrination should start at the elevator of light, but if they wanted to scrap all the problems major and minor with the ending and actually make logical sense; they would bring it back to London.

The crazy basically starts straight up with Harbinger. I find it kind of weird that Harbinger, who couldn't stop ranting about Shepard and never shutting up, remains strangely silent? If Harbinger really felt it was nessessary to intimidate, he would have dropped a few threats when he landed, as shown on Rannoch; Reapers have giant microphones, it was strange that Harbinger didn't drop any sort of threat or even simply adress Shepard.

"SHEPARD!!!"

Then he flies off with Shepard still alive and at the beam. Sure this can be justified in so many ways, but logically, Harbinger could check if Shepard is really dead by just giving the body a final blast before he flies away. Really?

Bioware sure as hell have a lot of clarifing to do without the Indoctrination Theory and the only explanation right now is Space Magic.

[Tleining]

wryterra wrote...

answer 1: rapid indoctrination exists, if you read around the subject. That said, Shepard's been 'around Reaper tech' constantly for a while now. 

answer 2: very early accoarding to the books and worsening 

answer 3: not for a short time, no. The implants inside Shepard are reaper tech. Those are physically inside her all of the time for a long time. 

answer 4: it's speculation based on the almost identical device in TIM's origin story in the books/comics

1.) yes, it causes a lot of damage to the Persons mind. Kinda doubt that's what happened.
What do you see as constantly? The longest was 2 days in Arrival. And that's Optional (if Shepard does not do the Mission, Hackett sends a Squad of Marines in)

2.) What book? If you are referring to Grayson, yes, being implanted with Reaper tech is bad.

3.) Source? Note that Reverse Engineered is not the same. Also this would contradict the book "Retribution", where Grayson is the first test subject being implanted with Reaper tech.

4.) ..... you mean the device that turned people into husks/marauders?

[OdanUrr]

im commander shep wrote...

If we forget about Indoctrination Theory and the ending for the moment.

Thoughout the game we are given lots of hints that shepard is being indoctrinated/ attempts at indoctrination (the dreams inparticular). Other than at the end and the set piece with TIM and anderson where shepard maybe under indoctrinated control from TIM.

If we take the endings as they are nothing ever comes of this indoctrination its just forgotten about even though as the game progresses it appears the indoctrination is getting stronger and stronger. Is there any pay off from the indoctrination or was that all removed as mentioned in the ME3 final hours app.

There does not seem to be any point to the indoctrination references now, (maybe artistic/dramatic effect).

1) The dreams, or nightmares rather, are, to my mind, a form of PTSD. That he's being indoctrinated is purely speculation.

2) No, I don't think TIM was "indoctrinating" Shepard or Anderson at the end. He just paralyzed their bodies and moved an arm here or there.

So no, I don't think Shepard was fighting indoctrination in ME3. What we see is a man (or woman) under a lot of pressure to broker seemingly impossible alliances, all the while experiencing the loss of comrades, and anxious at the knowledge that every minute that passes the Reapers are killing someone on Earth.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 17 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[Iconoclaste]

ashwind wrote...

Why is Shepard walking "TOWARDS" an exploding conduit while trying to shoot it out in the Destroy ending? So he can be close to the explosion? He is no more than 5-8 feet away from a target that is 2x his size, even a blind bat cannot miss. If there is anything to the indoctrination theory, it is what Harbinger means by "This hurts you", trick Shepard into walking towards a bomb and shooting it. Alas, with enough EMS, Shepard will wake up to find himself paralyzed from the explosion.

Indoctrination theory is reading too much into ambient. TRYING very hard to grab whatever they can to believe it make sense but in truth there is as much sense in this theory as there is in the ending.

And yet, I believe that's exactly where IT's best chance lies. Because if Shepard is actually activating the panel in front of which he collapsed, while "seeing" he is with Starchild up there, being shown a symbolic environment while his hands work blindly on the panel, then when the real explosion occurs he is shielded by the huge ceiling piece with the hole, and maybe sent back to the corridor he first got in when "beamed" into the Citadel. I'm just making that up, but if IT just sticks to "Sleep in London", it just doesn't make sense, since Shep is nowhere close to have provoked anything, and the battle is still ahead. And Bioware said no to that.

[sirisaacx]

Indoctrination Theory is nothing but grasping at straws. If it were real, Bioware wouldn't still be keeping up the ruse. They're getting absolutely murdered in the press. Whether or not journalists agree, it brings attention to the fact that a large number of people thought the ending was awful. If they had a brilliant plan in the works they would have definitely come clean by now. This PR campaign does not seem to me like they're about to announce something fantastic. They were caught off guard and are trying to minimize damage.

Whether or not they will end up using IT is up for debate, but it's a huge stretch to believe Bioware INTENDED to use IT from the get go. That's just wishful thinking from a fanbase who can't deal with the fact that a great franchise has an awful ending. Indoctrination is such a nebulous concept that it's really easy to say that bad writing or coincidences were actually a master plan.

Doesn't it make more sense that maybe the writers just have contradictions, sloppy writing, and plot holes in some parts of the game? There was definately a lot of all of that in the second and first games.

[Iconoclaste]

sirisaacx wrote...

Doesn't it make more sense that maybe the writers just have contradictions, sloppy writing, and plot holes in some parts of the game? There was definately a lot of all of that in the second and first games.

Definitely. And you could also add approximate animations, Hollywood space effects more related to fantasy than reality, indestructible Shepard, and a taste for grand themes that grow throughout the series to culminate with a random crash on Eden that hardly fits even in IT.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 17 avril 2012 - 10:42 .

[Silhouett3]

Tleining wrote...

What Reaper Contact did we have? Sovereign was on top of the Citadel Tower, we were inside. Short time on the Derelict Reaper. And then the Optional Content.

The Arrival is considered cannon, it's the reason Shepard was in custody for killing 300.000 batarians, Reapers arrive about 6 months later making ME3 possible and it has enough in-game content to safely assume Shepard started to be indoctrinated as I have posted about earlier. To say it is optional is like saying Liara becoming Shadow Broker is also optional. Forcing DLCs can be ugly in terms of business, but gaming industry and especially giants like EA, Capcom and Activision already doing it, so it's a whole another debate you are calling.

[SlowMerc]

Maybe I'm late to the party here... but if the IT was canon wouldn't that mean that we're doomed from the start? If Shephard has been indoctrinated enough to loose grasp on reality, why would he be able to use the Crucible to defeat the Reapers? Wouldn't it mean that regardless of which choice he does in the "dream" sequence he'll end up helping the reapers? Probably by using the Crucible and the Citadel to mass-harvest everyone he brought with him to attack the Reapers.
How could that possible be a better ending for the game series?

[Tleining]

Silhouett3 wrote...

The Arrival is considered cannon, it's the reason Shepard was in custody for killing 300.000 batarians, Reapers arrive about 6 months later making ME3 possible and it has enough in-game content to safely assume Shepard started to be indoctrinated as I have posted about earlier. To say it is optional is like saying Liara becoming Shadow Broker is also optional. Forcing DLCs can be ugly in terms of business, but gaming industry and especially giants like EA, Capcom and Activision already doing it, so it's a whole another debate you are calling.

Arrival:
Option 1: Shepard does a Favor to Admiral Hackett and destroys the System.
Option 2: Hackett sends in a Squad of Marines who destroy the System and get killed in the Process.
Result: Shepard is on Trial for working with Cerberus and (maybe) destryoing the System.

Lair of Shadow Broker:
Option 1: Shepard helps Liara take down the Shadow Broker. Feron can be safed.
Option 2: Liara hires Mercs to help her take down the Shadow Broker, all the Mercs and Feron die.
Result: Liara is ShadowBroker in ME3

Arrival happens no matter what. But Shepard doesn't have to go there.

[DeathJester9999]

sirisaacx wrote...

Indoctrination Theory is nothing but grasping at straws. If it were real, Bioware wouldn't still be keeping up the ruse. They're getting absolutely murdered in the press. Whether or not journalists agree, it brings attention to the fact that a large number of people thought the ending was awful. If they had a brilliant plan in the works they would have definitely come clean by now. This PR campaign does not seem to me like they're about to announce something fantastic. They were caught off guard and are trying to minimize damage.

Whether or not they will end up using IT is up for debate, but it's a huge stretch to believe Bioware INTENDED to use IT from the get go. That's just wishful thinking from a fanbase who can't deal with the fact that a great franchise has an awful ending. Indoctrination is such a nebulous concept that it's really easy to say that bad writing or coincidences were actually a master plan.

Doesn't it make more sense that maybe the writers just have contradictions, sloppy writing, and plot holes in some parts of the game? There was definately a lot of all of that in the second and first games.

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I'd have to agree. We like things to make sense and the
ending just doesn't.



There also a fair amount of evidence in the game to suggest that Shepard isn't
either.



1) The Prothean VI on Thessia can (apparently) detect indoctrinated
individuals,... Shepard talks to it twice with no mention;



2) Liara (less reliable I'd suggest) has bonded with Shepard if she is the
LI,.... no mention;



3) The line by the glowing kid himself about TIM  (I may have this wrong,
I've only seen the ending once) and his control attempt; Quote " (Shepard) so the IM
was right; (Glowing Kid) Yes, but he couldn't control them because we were controlling him; (Shepard) But
I can,.... (Glowing Kid) Yes" I’m guessing that means Shepard has his own free will.



But even these are just my speculations.

[DeathJester9999]

Sorry People,.... Not sure what happened with that post.

[Silhouett3]

Tleining wrote...



Arrival:
Option 1: Shepard does a Favor to Admiral Hackett and destroys the System.
Option 2: Hackett sends in a Squad of Marines who destroy the System and get killed in the Process.
Result: Shepard is on Trial for working with Cerberus and (maybe) destryoing the System.

Lair of Shadow Broker:
Option 1: Shepard helps Liara take down the Shadow Broker. Feron can be safed.
Option 2: Liara hires Mercs to help her take down the Shadow Broker, all the Mercs and Feron die.
Result: Liara is ShadowBroker in ME3

Arrival happens no matter what. But Shepard doesn't have to go there.

Oh no Arrival is cannon. Just like in Kotor Universe cannon Raven is male(or female, I forgot:P) and light side. In a ME3 codex entry states Shepard saved millions of humans from the Collector threat - so cannon Shepard is not in custody since he is still considered a hero, but in custody because humans were at a cold war state with Batarians. 

[OdanUrr]

Silhouett3 wrote...

The Arrival is considered cannon, it's the reason Shepard was in custody for killing 300.000 batarians, Reapers arrive about 6 months later making ME3 possible and it has enough in-game content to safely assume Shepard started to be indoctrinated as I have posted about earlier. To say it is optional is like saying Liara becoming Shadow Broker is also optional. Forcing DLCs can be ugly in terms of business, but gaming industry and especially giants like EA, Capcom and Activision already doing it, so it's a whole another debate you are calling.

If you play an entirely new character in ME3 (without importing), there's no mention of the events of Arrival whatsoever. In fact, when you play the demo, there's no mention of Arrival whatsoever. Anderson says something along the lines of, "the s*** you've done" as opposed to, "when you destroyed that relay." It is implied Shepard's in the brig because of everything he's done before, not due to a specific event. So, I don't think we can use Arrival in support of IT. If there's any water to IT, it must be thoroughly explained exclusively through the events of ME3, or otherwise new players wouldn't understand.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 17 avril 2012 - 11:58 .

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It is not agreed, no. Shepard was never indoctrinated, and what TIM used on Shepard was something else because indoctrination doesn't work that way.

wait? so the technology that TIM uses to get his armies, and that he's been researching all this time that is the only thing we know that can achieve something like this, is just something that he uses on every non Shepard character? what?

[Tleining]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Oh no Arrival is cannon. Just like in Kotor Universe cannon Raven is male(or female, I forgot:P) and light side. In a ME3 codex entry states Shepard saved millions of humans from the Collector threat - so cannon Shepard is not in custody since he is still considered a hero, but in custody because humans were at a cold war state with Batarians. 

"UPDATED (Only if the player has not completed the Arrival DLC for Mass Effect 2)

Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson. The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps."

Modifié par Tleining, 17 avril 2012 - 12:02 .

[KingZayd]

Shermos wrote...

Only in the final TIM conversation. I don't accept IT at all.

Shiala was indoctrinated by Sovereign, He died, but when the reapers came she started hearing the voices again. Shepard would still be indoctrinated post-tim convo (as the reapers are still all around).

[Silhouett3]

OdanUrr wrote...

If you play an entirely new character in ME3 (without importing), there's no mention of the events of Arrival whatsoever. In fact, when you play the demo, there's no mention of Arrival whatsoever. Anderson says something along the lines of, "the s*** you've done" as opposed to, "when you destroyed that relay." It is implied Shepard's in the brig because of everything he's done before, not due to a specific event. So, I don't think we can use Arrival in support of IT. If there's any water to IT, it must be thoroughly explained exclusively through the events of ME3, or otherwise new players wouldn't understand.

Hardly. Regardless of the "first contact" with Reaper technology in the past, Shep has experienced in ME3 all that hinted in the codex entry about indoctrination -  voices in the mind, hallunications, trusting enemies (Reaper AI), betraying friends (pointing gun at and even shooting Anderson). 

[Candidate 88766]

Tleining wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

Oh no Arrival is cannon. Just like in Kotor Universe cannon Raven is male(or female, I forgot:P) and light side. In a ME3 codex entry states Shepard saved millions of humans from the Collector threat - so cannon Shepard is not in custody since he is still considered a hero, but in custody because humans were at a cold war state with Batarians. 

"UPDATED (Only if the player has not completed the Arrival DLC for Mass Effect 2)

Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson. The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps."

Thats a blow to the theory.

Without being present at Arrival, Shepard hasn't really been in contact with Reaper tech for any prolonged period of time. And his squadmates have always been with him, and show none of the traits.

[OdanUrr]

Silhouett3 wrote...

Hardly. Regardless of the "first contact" with Reaper technology in the past, Shep has experienced in ME3 all that hinted in the codex entry about indoctrination -  voices in the mind, hallunications, trusting enemies (Reaper AI), betraying friends (pointing gun at and even shooting Anderson). 

It could also be attributed to war fatigue. He's practically fighting the entire war single-handedly, having nightmares about not being able to save someone, hearing whispers from everyone he's not been able to save in the past.

As for the betraying friends bit, TIM fired that gun, not Shepard.

[KingZayd]

SlowMerc wrote...

Maybe I'm late to the party here... but if the IT was canon wouldn't that mean that we're doomed from the start? If Shephard has been indoctrinated enough to loose grasp on reality, why would he be able to use the Crucible to defeat the Reapers? Wouldn't it mean that regardless of which choice he does in the "dream" sequence he'll end up helping the reapers? Probably by using the Crucible and the Citadel to mass-harvest everyone he brought with him to attack the Reapers.
How could that possible be a better ending for the game series?

a) because that would make sense, as opposed to what we have now
he is doomed yes..  but he can fight indoctrination temporarily. in fact if he does manage to destroy every single reaper in the short window, then he'll be fine (but then that'd be really lucky). Even if Shepard is doomed, doesn't mean the galaxy is doomed. Shepard isn't the only one who does anything in the galaxy you know. Also i'm hoping for a paragon interrupt suicide option (can you match Saren's sacrifice?)

[KingZayd]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Tleining wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

Oh no Arrival is cannon. Just like in Kotor Universe cannon Raven is male(or female, I forgot:P) and light side. In a ME3 codex entry states Shepard saved millions of humans from the Collector threat - so cannon Shepard is not in custody since he is still considered a hero, but in custody because humans were at a cold war state with Batarians. 

"UPDATED (Only if the player has not completed the Arrival DLC for Mass Effect 2)

Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson. The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps."

Thats a blow to the theory.

Without being present at Arrival, Shepard hasn't really been in contact with Reaper tech for any prolonged period of time. And his squadmates have always been with him, and show none of the traits.

Shepard's squadmates don't all accompany him everywhere.. (for some reason Shepard only likes to have 2 of his people with him  at any given time  except when giving speeches or on suicide missions). Also, Shepard's the only one who has the face-to-face conversation with the Rannoch Reaper.

[ImmovableMover]

No, and there is even less evidence of indoctrination in ME1 and 2 than there is in 3 (And there's barely any in 3)