421 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The sanctuary method makes it clear that TIM has been researching indoctrination and how it works. The husks are indoctrinated (fast form, damages brains leads to zombification). The EM signal is the same sort used by the reapers to control their husks. It's provided as an explanation for how Cerberus has managed to amass such large, loyal forces.

No. They were researching the huskification/conversion-Process. The Implants/DragonTeeth are connected to the Reapers, so the Husks and anyone implanted with Reaper tech is being controlled by the Reapers. That's where QE comes in.
Indoctrination works through sound that can be transmitted by Husks.

 http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
"Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods. "

[Mobius-Silent]

dreman9999 wrote...
But if you reave engineer it, It won't be better. Look at the thanix cannon, that was reversed enginnered from reaper cannon, it still is not better then  a regular reaper cannon reguardless. Reguadless, TIM, who is also indoctrinated in the scene, would not have a form of indoctrnation that is better nor does thingsregular indoctrination can't do.

TIM is _not_ using indoctrination, he is using Tech derived from the reaper control signal. You seen to think it's obvious he is, I disagree. Bioware themselves describe it as "Control Mojo" not indoctrination.

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

But if you reave engineer it, It won't be better. Look at the thanix cannon, that was reversed enginnered from reaper cannon, it still is not better then  a regular reaper cannon reguardless. Reguadless, TIM, who is also indoctrinated in the scene, would not have a form of indoctrnation that is better nor does thingsregular indoctrination can't do.

We don't know how TIM is controlling them. Mass Effect Fields to stop them from moving and hacking the Pistol perhaps?
In any case, Reaper Indoctrination would allow him to completely control them. His Variant only allows him to stop them from moving. It's different, not better.

Modifié par Tleining, 17 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[dreman9999]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The sanctuary method makes it clear that TIM has been researching indoctrination and how it works. The husks are indoctrinated (fast form, damages brains leads to zombification). The EM signal is the same sort used by the reapers to control their husks. It's provided as an explanation for how Cerberus has managed to amass such large, loyal forces.

The husking process is seperate from indoctrination. Indoctrination is done via EM and sonics, huskification is done via nanotech. The cerberus research was on the reaper control signal for its troops, not simply indoctrination

  http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years....

Husk are examples of rapid indoctrination....It still is the same thing.

[dreman9999]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But if you reave engineer it, It won't be better. Look at the thanix cannon, that was reversed enginnered from reaper cannon, it still is not better then  a regular reaper cannon reguardless. Reguadless, TIM, who is also indoctrinated in the scene, would not have a form of indoctrnation that is better nor does thingsregular indoctrination can't do.

TIM is _not_ using indoctrination, he is using Tech derived from the reaper control signal. You seen to think it's obvious he is, I disagree. Bioware themselves describe it as "Control Mojo" not indoctrination.

Indoctrinatation is a form of tech. It is the tech used for the reaper signal. 

[Mobius-Silent]

dreman9999 wrote...

You forgetting one last thing as well....

Point being....the dreams are showing 3 signs of indoctrination at once......Whispers, oily shadows, and being a strage dream....All sometime after Shepard is effeted by object rho.

I'm not forgetting anything. I am aware of these things and they do not add up the way you want them to. "Oily shadows" is nonsense, so we have "dream whispers" but no waking whispers like _all_ the other indoctrination victims. No commands where all the other receive alien commands and the reassuring voices of lost crewmates.

Also, Shepard was clear for 3 months after object Rho. No dreams mentioned there.

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But if you reave engineer it, It won't be better. Look at the thanix cannon, that was reversed enginnered from reaper cannon, it still is not better then  a regular reaper cannon reguardless. Reguadless, TIM, who is also indoctrinated in the scene, would not have a form of indoctrnation that is better nor does thingsregular indoctrination can't do.

TIM is _not_ using indoctrination, he is using Tech derived from the reaper control signal. You seen to think it's obvious he is, I disagree. Bioware themselves describe it as "Control Mojo" not indoctrination.

yeah he needs something to be able to exert this influence over the indoctrinated  because unlike the reapers, for him this function is not in built.

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But if you reave engineer it, It won't be better. Look at the thanix cannon, that was reversed enginnered from reaper cannon, it still is not better then  a regular reaper cannon reguardless. Reguadless, TIM, who is also indoctrinated in the scene, would not have a form of indoctrnation that is better nor does thingsregular indoctrination can't do.

We don't know how TIM is controlling them. Mass Effect Fields to stop them from moving and hacking the Pistol perhaps?
In any case, Reaper Indoctrination would allow him to completely control them. His Variant only allows him to stop them from moving. It's different, not better.

No, you not understanding....That type of indoctrination takes time. TIM has no way to do it instantly. In doctrination does not work like that...In order for indoctrination to effect motter funtions, it has to be will binded to the hind partof the brain...That takes time.

[Mobius-Silent]

dreman9999 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

TIM is _not_ using indoctrination, he is using Tech derived from the reaper control signal. You seen to think it's obvious he is, I disagree. Bioware themselves describe it as "Control Mojo" not indoctrination.

Indoctrinatation is a form of tech. It is the tech used for the reaper signal. 

Incorrect. Nanotech removes liquids and replaces organs with tech, the codex states this. Indoctrination is sonics and EM, they are two technologies used by the reapers out of many

[xztr]

The dreams are nightmares wich comes from guilt.
That is how I took it anyway.

[Tleining]

dreman9999 wrote...

No, you not understanding....That type of indoctrination takes time. TIM has no way to do it instantly. In doctrination does not work like that...In order for indoctrination to effect motter funtions, it has to be will binded to the hind partof the brain...That takes time.

So maybe it wasn't indoctrination

dreman9999 wrote...

Every person you talk to that has been indoctrinated talks about whispers....Every single one....I've checked... Anyone in the process of indoctrination hears whispers hears.

I'm not questioning that.
Indoctrinated People hear Whispers: Fact
Every Person who hears Whispers in their Dreams is Indoctrinated: Assumption

KingZayd wrote...

Huskification IS fast form indoctrination. "The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time. "

The Salarians on Virmire were mindless Shells/Husks. But they had not been Huskified like the Human Husks, Marauders, Banshees,......
Their mind has been destroyed. Saren was indoctrinated. After he died, his Body was huskified.

[Mobius-Silent]

dreman9999 wrote...
No, you not understanding....That type of indoctrination takes time. TIM has no way to do it instantly. In doctrination does not work like that...In order for indoctrination to effect motter funtions, it has to be will binded to the hind partof the brain...That takes time.

No you're speculating. As I said, Bioware themselves describe TIM's ability as "control mojo" in the notes for this scene, not indoctrination

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You forgetting one last thing as well....

Point being....the dreams are showing 3 signs of indoctrination at once......Whispers, oily shadows, and being a strage dream....All sometime after Shepard is effeted by object rho.

I'm not forgetting anything. I am aware of these things and they do not add up the way you want them to. "Oily shadows" is nonsense, so we have "dream whispers" but no waking whispers like _all_ the other indoctrination victims. No commands where all the other receive alien commands and the reassuring voices of lost crewmates.

Also, Shepard was clear for 3 months after object Rho. No dreams mentioned there.

the mental trauma (that many people agree the dreams are indicative of) added to the ridiculously high stressed the Shepard is (ask Joker) and the fact that Shepard is on the brink of death near the end all result in a much lower mental strength and therefore ability to resist indoctrination. "Matriarch Benezia said that even Sovereign's interior serves indoctrination: the strange angles of the rooms are confusing and make you uncertain of yourself.  " Shepard definitely shows this lack of self-confidence at the end.

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 02:41 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Tleining wrote...
The Salarians on Virmire were mindless Shells/Husks. But they had not been Huskified like the Human Husks, Marauders, Banshees,......
Their mind has been destroyed. Saren was indoctrinated. After he died, his Body was huskified.

And that was explicitly due to the implants

[Mobius-Silent]

KingZayd wrote...

the mental trauma (that many people agree the dreams are indicative of) added to the ridiculously high stressed the Shepard is (ask Joker) and the fact that Shepard is on the brink of death near the end all result in a much lower mental strength and therefore ability to resist indoctrination. "Matriarch Benezia said that even Sovereign's interior serves indoctrination: the strange angles of the rooms are confusing and make you uncertain of yourself.  " Shepard definitely shows this lack of self-confidence at the end.

Or y'know the stress could just be causing the bad dreams, like what happens with normal people. Funny how those start after earth is invaded and _not_  after object Rho...

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 avril 2012 - 02:44 .

[dreman9999]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You forgetting one last thing as well....

Point being....the dreams are showing 3 signs of indoctrination at once......Whispers, oily shadows, and being a strage dream....All sometime after Shepard is effeted by object rho.

I'm not forgetting anything. I am aware of these things and they do not add up the way you want them to. "Oily shadows" is nonsense, so we have "dream whispers" but no waking whispers like _all_ the other indoctrination victims. No commands where all the other receive alien commands and the reassuring voices of lost crewmates.

Also, Shepard was clear for 3 months after object Rho. No dreams mentioned there.

1. Indoctrination is subtle...The repaers know Shepard know the signs of indoctrination, so they would not try to when he is awake. It' way more sublte to do it in his sleep whne he is not aware.
2.Indoctrination is sublte, if the tried to effect his dreams anytime after object rho.....Shepard who know that they can effect dreams would knw something is wrong.

It come down to the fact that for Shepard to not notice....He would have to be focused on something else. They wait till the war started because they new Shepard would be too distraction to focus on his own mental well being and they hide it by making the dreams to be like PTSD. 
It's being applied subtly...

[dreman9999]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Tleining wrote...
The Salarians on Virmire were mindless Shells/Husks. But they had not been Huskified like the Human Husks, Marauders, Banshees,......
Their mind has been destroyed. Saren was indoctrinated. After he died, his Body was huskified.

And that was explicitly due to the implants

But he was still indoctrinated.

[KingZayd]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, you not understanding....That type of indoctrination takes time. TIM has no way to do it instantly. In doctrination does not work like that...In order for indoctrination to effect motter funtions, it has to be will binded to the hind partof the brain...That takes time.

So maybe it wasn't indoctrination

dreman9999 wrote...

Every person you talk to that has been indoctrinated talks about whispers....Every single one....I've checked... Anyone in the process of indoctrination hears whispers hears.

I'm not questioning that.
Indoctrinated People hear Whispers: Fact
Every Person who hears Whispers in their Dreams is Indoctrinated: Assumption

KingZayd wrote...

Huskification IS fast form indoctrination. "The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time. "

The Salarians on Virmire were mindless Shells/Husks. But they had not been Huskified like the Human Husks, Marauders, Banshees,......
Their mind has been destroyed. Saren was indoctrinated. After he died, his Body was huskified.

His body already had been huskified. The synthetic parts made the indoctrination easier, and after his death allowed him to  be remote controlled. Huskification IS indoctrination, just a different form.

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)">"Cerberus ground forces are formed from personnel - be they unsuspecting volunteers, refugees or abductees - who are deemed physically suitable. These personnel are put through an "integration" process - a combination of Reaper-inspired indoctrination, implantation or other conditioning - and become the various troop variants. While indoctrination is involved, and they are physically mutated into a husk-like state, the integration does not reduce them to the feral behavior that Reaper ]husks[/color][/url] exhibit. Instead, Cerberus troops retain enough skills to perform their roles and maintain complete loyalty to Cerberus' cause. "

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 02:51 .

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

the mental trauma (that many people agree the dreams are indicative of) added to the ridiculously high stressed the Shepard is (ask Joker) and the fact that Shepard is on the brink of death near the end all result in a much lower mental strength and therefore ability to resist indoctrination. "Matriarch Benezia said that even Sovereign's interior serves indoctrination: the strange angles of the rooms are confusing and make you uncertain of yourself.  " Shepard definitely shows this lack of self-confidence at the end.

Or y'know the stress could just be causing the bad dreams, like what happens with normal people. Funny how those start after earth is invaded and _not_  after object Rho...

but stress doesn't allow  TIM to control the Shepard. Stress does make it easier for indoctrination to take place.

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 02:50 .

[Mobius-Silent]

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[/quote]1. Indoctrination is subtle...The repaers know Shepard know the signs of indoctrination, so they would not try to when he is awake. It' way more sublte to do it in his sleep whne he is not aware.
2.Indoctrination is sublte, if the tried to effect his dreams anytime after object rho.....Shepard who know that they can effect dreams would knw something is wrong.

It come down to the fact that for Shepard to not notice....He would have to be focused on something else. They wait till the war started because they new Shepard would be too distraction to focus on his own mental well being and they hide it by making the dreams to be like PTSD. 
It's being applied subtly...

[/quote]

You're reaching, Now we have remote-control on incompete indoctrination. No, you can make stuff up all you like but the "evidence" is _so_ flimsy.

I understand why people like it, I really do, but it bugs me when people are all "But it sooooo obvious it's the only thing that makes sense" whereas its actually just as big a mess letting people see things when they aren't there.

None of the "proof" holds up to scrutiny its all just assumption on top of maybe on top of a flawed ending to begin with. Each element has a more likely "natural" explaination. 

[dreman9999]

Tleining wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

No, you not understanding....That type of indoctrination takes time. TIM has no way to do it instantly. In doctrination does not work like that...In order for indoctrination to effect motter funtions, it has to be will binded to the hind partof the brain...That takes time.

So maybe it wasn't indoctrination

dreman9999 wrote...

Every person you talk to that has been indoctrinated talks about whispers....Every single one....I've checked... Anyone in the process of indoctrination hears whispers hears.

I'm not questioning that.
Indoctrinated People hear Whispers: Fact
Every Person who hears Whispers in their Dreams is Indoctrinated: Assumption

KingZayd wrote...

Huskification IS fast form indoctrination. "The mental damage from indoctrination is severe and permanent. As Shepard saw, the captured salarians on Virmire had been turned into shambling husks, who either attacked on sight or just stood awaiting orders. Only people with immense mental strength are able to resist indoctrination, and even then, only for a short time. "

The Salarians on Virmire were mindless Shells/Husks. But they had not been Huskified like the Human Husks, Marauders, Banshees,......
Their mind has been destroyed. Saren was indoctrinated. After he died, his Body was huskified.

1. Do you have any proof that anything after the reaper cut down Shepard really happen?
2.
Indoctrinated People hear Whispers: Fact
Every Person who hears Whispers in their Dreams is Indoctrinated: Assumption 
Shepard spent years near reaper tech:Fact
Shepard was hit by an indoctrination feild on arrival strong enough for him to see visions and voices:fact.
Indoctrintion doesn't go away:Fact
Indoctrination is subtle:fact
Indoctrination can be builded up over tiem :fact(Saren)
Shepard had strang dreams months after being hit by the indoctrination feild from object rho:FACT
Reapers can effect dreams :Fact.

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Indoctrination is subtle...The repaers know Shepard know the signs of indoctrination, so they would not try to when he is awake. It' way more sublte to do it in his sleep whne he is not aware.
2.Indoctrination is sublte, if the tried to effect his dreams anytime after object rho.....Shepard who know that they can effect dreams would knw something is wrong.

It come down to the fact that for Shepard to not notice....He would have to be focused on something else. They wait till the war started because they new Shepard would be too distraction to focus on his own mental well being and they hide it by making the dreams to be like PTSD. 
It's being applied subtly...

You're reaching, Now we have remote-control on incompete indoctrination. No, you can make stuff up all you like but the "evidence" is _so_ flimsy.

I understand why people like it, I really do, but it bugs me when people are all "But it sooooo obvious it's the only thing that makes sense" whereas its actually just as big a mess letting people see things when they aren't there.

None of the "proof" holds up to scrutiny its all just assumption on top of maybe on top of a flawed ending to begin with. Each element has a more likely "natural" explaination. 

It makes sense, which is more than i can say about a face value intepretion of ending.

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 02:53 .

[Mobius-Silent]

KingZayd wrote...

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)">"Cerberus ground forces are formed from personnel - be they unsuspecting volunteers, refugees or abductees - who are deemed physically suitable. These personnel are put through an "integration" process - a combination of Reaper-inspired indoctrination, implantation or other conditioning - and become the various troop variants. While indoctrination is involved, and they are physically mutated into a husk-like state, the integration does not reduce them to the feral behavior that Reaper ]husks[/color][/url] exhibit. Instead, Cerberus troops retain enough skills to perform their roles and maintain complete loyalty to Cerberus' cause. "

Hah this proves my point:

"While indoctrination is involved, and they are physically mutated "

If indoctrination and the huskification were the same thing this line would not be needed. It is explicitly pointing out that _more_ than indoctrination is happening, a hybrid husk procedure that TIM can (believes he can) control

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 avril 2012 - 02:54 .

[dreman9999]

[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...

[quote]dreman9999 wrote...

[/quote]1. Indoctrination is subtle...The repaers know Shepard know the signs of indoctrination, so they would not try to when he is awake. It' way more sublte to do it in his sleep whne he is not aware.
2.Indoctrination is sublte, if the tried to effect his dreams anytime after object rho.....Shepard who know that they can effect dreams would knw something is wrong.

It come down to the fact that for Shepard to not notice....He would have to be focused on something else. They wait till the war started because they new Shepard would be too distraction to focus on his own mental well being and they hide it by making the dreams to be like PTSD. 
It's being applied subtly...

[/quote]

You're reaching, Now we have remote-control on incompete indoctrination. No, you can make stuff up all you like but the "evidence" is _so_ flimsy.

I understand why people like it, I really do, but it bugs me when people are all "But it sooooo obvious it's the only thing that makes sense" whereas its actually just as big a mess letting people see things when they aren't there.

None of the "proof" holds up to scrutiny its all just assumption on top of maybe on top of a flawed ending to begin with. Each element has a more likely "natural" explaination. 

[/quote]Yes, they can..
Fact 7. Reapers can indoctrinatewith quantum intanglement.http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Arrival:_The_Reapers'_Secrets 

The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into. Another broadcast is infrasound, consistent with frequencies that trigger feelings of awe and fear in , a known factor in Reaper indoctrination. Kenson's laboratory is filled with equipment dedicated to monitoring any signal coming from the artifact in the hopes that some clue will prove the Reapers' undoing before it's too late. " 

[dreman9999]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

TIM is _not_ using indoctrination, he is using Tech derived from the reaper control signal. You seen to think it's obvious he is, I disagree. Bioware themselves describe it as "Control Mojo" not indoctrination.

Indoctrinatation is a form of tech. It is the tech used for the reaper signal. 

Incorrect. Nanotech removes liquids and replaces organs with tech, the codex states this. Indoctrination is sonics and EM, they are two technologies used by the reapers out of many

You not understanding.... 
http://masseffect.wi...#Indoctrination 
'Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods."
electromagnetic fields=tech
infrasonic =tech
ultrasonic noise=tech.
...
Indoctrination is a form of tech.